My experiences that suggest an intelligent force exists

[abaddon]

What is the point of a detailed message though? ...

I see a lot of strained reasoning through the whole post.

First paragraph, Satan's referenced... Messages from an intelligent force might be a deception but your point is it's from an intelligent force. But if you have to guess "I think maybe something just tried to talk to me?" but there's no clear message, you can safely assume your own mind has tricked you. Our minds do that, frequently. We're wired to see agency in things around us (like movement and oddities that break a pattern). In some folk this alert function goes a little haywire and drives a person to distraction.

Fourth paragraph, the old superstition that casting lots can be a way for spirits and humans to communicate. The Bible reflects the superstitions of those who wrote it. I've toyed with Tarot cards, another divination tool. They're useless for getting objective info about anything, like with any divination. But they're useful if one wants to see what the imagination makes of random patterns of cards. It's the mind talking with itself. The "messages" are from the subconscious (or semi-conscious) parts of one's own mind.

Sixth paragraph... "Common belief", "common reasoning". Yeah, lots of people pick up odd beliefs from the bible. But that's no more odd than your choice to bypass verbal messages and take them instead from the unusual visual appearance of a book. It's not so different from thinking martians are messaging you via a stray dog's bald patches.

 

[excreationist]

You ask,

What is the point of a detailed message though?

...but then say:

when I was in hospital I jumped to the conclusion that...therefore Christianity or Mormonism is true.

I no longer believe that even though this is how people often end up agreeing with a religion.

And my hunch that an intelligent force is involved is compatible with many different religions and belief systems including liberal Christianity.

That would be the point. The point of Joseph Smith's revelation was that he was confused about which religion was correct. He asked God to direct him to the bestest, truest.
The Angel appeared and said, "Meh. They're all wrong. Some worse than others. Here's the real skinny."

If the book of Mormon is the Truth then why are most Biblical scholars not convinced? I think that no religion supposedly involving the supernatural is the absolute Truth. (a message clearly communicated by a God that doesn't want it misinterpreted.)

If the Mormons are right, this intelligence has a history of steering people in specific directions for specific purposes, and doesn't mess around with vague assurances that he's possibly real.

Perhaps (to a minuscule degree of certainty) the Mormons are right but I don't think there is an objective way of proving this.

 

[Keith&Co.]

You bolded the wrong part. It is not about Mormonism EXCEPT in the nature of the message recieved.

A detailed message might at least not leave you thinking MORE THAN ONE religion might be true.
That would be the POINT of a detailed message. A message like 'Worship Thor,' sent via a medium that ensures you know it us of divine origin would be more helpful than something vague, and easy to assign multiple meanings to.
Like right here, you were unable to discern the meaning of my post, and i used text, not prime numbers and book bindings.

 

[excreationist]

You bolded the wrong part. It is not about Mormonism EXCEPT in the nature of the message received.

A detailed message might at least not leave you thinking MORE THAN ONE religion might be true.

But how can you be sure that the detailed message is True? I mean even if it clearly is from a supernatural source (a miracle was involved), how can you be sure it speaks the Truth?
BTW some Christians believe that some so-called Christian phenomena are from the devil: ("Counterfeit Gifts")
http://www.christianhandbook.com/christian-handbook-1-articles.php?ArticleNum=106

That would be the POINT of a detailed message. A message like 'Worship Thor,' sent via a medium that ensures you know it us of divine origin would be more helpful than something vague, and easy to assign multiple meanings to.

How can a person be certain that a message from a medium is from divine origin (from "God")?

Like right here, you were unable to discern the meaning of my post, and i used text, not prime numbers and book bindings.

That is similar to how Christians often disagree about what the Bible means.

 

[Keith&Co.]

But how can you be sure that the detailed message is True?

Ex, you're ready to believe an upside down binding.
Hold out for an unmistakable message.

Or at least a full sentence from a Scrabble set.

 

[excreationist]

But how can you be sure that the detailed message is True?

Ex, you're ready to believe an upside down binding.
Hold out for an unmistakable message.

Or at least a full sentence from a Scrabble set.

If there is a message from a miracle (e.g. spelt out in the clouds or from Scrabble), I think all that can be concluded is that it seems like an intelligent force exists. You can't be sure that it is telling the Truth. It is like the Bible - it seems to say that the earth is flat and some Christians believe that - others make excuses saying that it isn't meant to be literal.

Maybe we're in a simulation but there are AI's or players or players from the outside that intervene a little so that people can't be sure what to think about the paranormal. Maybe intelligent forces communicate (not necessarily in sentences) to many people in a way that isn't part of a consistent system - e.g. in the Bible messages were sent by a hand on a wall, or by angels, or in dreams, or through a burning bush - God in the Bible seems to have many different forms and messages - from commands of genocide, to wanting people to get baptised, etc.

Again, I found the following interesting and this is my point of view about the possibility of detailed messages:

GOD
Bender, being God isn't easy, if you
do too much, people get dependent. And
if you do nothing, they lose hope. You
have to use a light touch, like a safecracker
or a pickpocket.
BENDER
Or a guy who burns down the bar for
the insurance money.
GOD
Yes, if you make it look like an electrical
thing. When you do things right, people
won't be sure you've done anything at
all.
​

Also there's this: (from Madonna's "Like a Prayer")

Life is a mystery, everyone must stand alone
I hear you call my name
And it feels like home
​

 

[excreationist]

Koyaanisqatsi:

You said that a Trickster IF would be subordinate to a Supreme IF. I don't think that must be the case but while in hospital I thought that maybe that was the case: (see post #128)

"We live in a retrocausal E8 block universe as sinners with a loving higher power who sometimes uses tough love. There is also a malicious deceptive force that the loving higher power allows to hurt people."

....So, do you, a reasonably intelligent force, pick up your phone and immediately call your daughter so that you can communicate such an important bit of information directly, or do you go out into a random grassy field and arrange eight rocks into a semi-circle, with one rock laid on its side representing the imminent danger of a car crash and hope that she passes that way and sees the rocks and can figure out the meaning of the rock on its side?...

Actually in the Bible sometimes God communicates in highly ambiguous and unclear ways - consider Joseph (in the O.T.) and Daniel and how they interpreted other people's dreams.

....that gives rise to two IFs. One is the Supreme IF and the other is the Trickster IF subordinate...

In the Bible there are countless intelligent forces - God, angels, Satan, demons... in many religions there are many gods. In the O.T. God talks about "other gods".

I don't think your car example is really involving much importance. I think God showing his existence and showing clues to his nature (e.g. he has a sense of humour) is more important than saving a person in a way that could just be seen as an hallucination.

 

[Keith&Co.]

But how can you be sure that the detailed message is True?

Ex, you're ready to believe an upside down binding.
Hold out for an unmistakable message.

Or at least a full sentence from a Scrabble set.

If there is a message from a miracle (e.g. spelt out in the clouds or from Scrabble), I think all that can be concluded is that it seems like an intelligent force exists.

Bullshit.
You are making conclusions from far less specific coincidences. If the clouds spell out YOUR NAME, you plan to get skeptical?

You have demonstrated that tge properly motivated individual can draw any conclusion he likes. From anything.

 

[excreationist]

If there is a message from a miracle (e.g. spelt out in the clouds or from Scrabble), I think all that can be concluded is that it seems like an intelligent force exists.

Bullshit.
You are making conclusions from far less specific coincidences. If the clouds spell out YOUR NAME, you plan to get skeptical?

What if it said "Greetings [yourname] you need to kill [so and so]". (perhaps it is Hitler when he was a baby - or the babies of cultures with the wrong God in Deuteronomy 20:16-17) It is obvious that an intelligent force exists in that example but how can you tell it is talking the Truth?

You have demonstrated that the properly motivated individual can draw any conclusion he likes. From anything.

So you're saying that I shouldn't be skeptical about the message? Note that in the Bible there are multiple instances where God commanded seemingly innocent people to be killed.

 

[excreationist]

I have a hard time believing you are serious, having read what you said in this post.

If you are serious, I recommend you talk to your doctor and get a psychiatrist referral. If nothing else, to rule out any underlying physiological factors that might be driving you to behave this way.

I don't think my hunch that an intelligent force is involved is such a big deal. If you read my recent posts you'd see that I am very skeptical about the truthfulness about messages I might receive. After all I know that the meaning of life isn't really "42" but I see it as the force having a sense of humour.
e.g.
Numbers 15:32-36
While the Israelites were in the wilderness, a man was found gathering wood on the Sabbath day. Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and the whole assembly, and they kept him in custody, because it was not clear what should be done to him. Then the Lord said to Moses, “The man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp.” So the assembly took him outside the camp and stoned him to death, as the Lord commanded Moses.

Moses receives private messages from "God" (who calls himself "I AM") - I believe it was an hallucination rather than an actual supernatural being... or if it was a supernatural being it is trying to cause problems.

Anyway I am seeing a lot of mental health professionals regularly.

 

[Keith&Co.]

What if it said "Greetings [yourname] you need to kill [so and so]". (perhaps it is Hitler when he was a baby - or the babies of cultures with the wrong God in Deuteronomy 20:16-17) It is obvious that an intelligent force exists in that example but how can you tell it is talking the Truth?

Well, that's a completely discrete effort from determining that an intelligent force exists, isn't it?

So you're saying that I shouldn't be skeptical about the message?

No, that's not what I am saying.
I'm saying that you pick weird points to suddenly become skeptical.
And you're projecting skepticism about a clear message you HAVE NOT RECEIVED, while leaning towards accepting non-impossible-coincidences as significant.

Note that in the Bible there are multiple instances where God commanded seemingly innocent people to be killed.

Well aware of that, ex. But there seems to be a big leap, here, between 'I think an IF exists because of a binding mistake' and 'MESSAGES FROM GOD GETS PEOPLE KILLED!'

I'm not telling you to be prepared for jihad. I'm suggesting that you not jump the gun on things that can still be explained without having to add supernatural elements.

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

You said that a Trickster IF would be subordinate to a Supreme IF. I don't think that must be the case

Then the word "Supreme" has no meaning.

"We live in a retrocausal E8 block universe as sinners with a loving higher power who sometimes uses tough love. There is also a malicious deceptive force that the loving higher power allows to hurt people."

Yeah, again, that contradicts the "Intelligent" part. There is nothing intelligent about a "loving higher power" that allows a "malicious deceptive force" to hurt people.

You contradict your own constructs. Either there is a Supreme Intelligent Force, or there is not. You can't have a Supreme Intelligent Force that is neither Supreme nor Intelligent.

....So, do you, a reasonably intelligent force, pick up your phone and immediately call your daughter so that you can communicate such an important bit of information directly, or do you go out into a random grassy field and arrange eight rocks into a semi-circle, with one rock laid on its side representing the imminent danger of a car crash and hope that she passes that way and sees the rocks and can figure out the meaning of the rock on its side?...

Actually in the Bible sometimes God communicates in highly ambiguous and unclear ways

We're not talking about fables written by fallible men thousands of years ago.

....that gives rise to two IFs. One is the Supreme IF and the other is the Trickster IF subordinate...

In the Bible

Again, not talking about childhood fables.

in many religions there are many gods.

But always one that is Supreme and has power over all others. That's what "Supreme" means.

Regardless, we are talking about a Supreme Intelligence, which means it would know how to figure out a way to communicate clearly and unambiguously such that you would have no other choice but to know it came directly from it and no other.

So ANY instance of doubt and/or anything not intelligent (as necessarily measured by YOUR intelligence, because, obviously a Supreme IF would know to craft all communications to your level of intelligence), is incontrovertible proof that you are NOT receiving any communication from such a force.

Iow, if YOU do not consider the communication to be intelligent (e.g., it tells you to harm another or yourself; it tells you to perform any act that makes no sense to YOU), then it cannot possibly be coming from a Supreme IF. A Supreme IF is not capable of deceiving you or communicating anything to you that YOU can't figure out on your own to be an intelligent course of action.

I don't think your car example is really involving much importance.

You don't think it would be important to you to save your daughter from killing herself or others?

I think God showing his existence and showing clues to his nature (e.g. he has a sense of humour) is more important than saving a person in a way that could just be seen as an hallucination.

"More important"? To whom? To a god? To a Supreme Intelligence? Once again you contradict the very notion you seek to establish. It's about YOU, not about it. It is the Supreme IF. It needs nothing. Its existence would only ever be in service to YOU.

So, how would a supremely intelligent being consider letting your daughter kill others or herself funny? If you don't consider it funny, it cannot either.

Intelligence must be universally understandable. All actions of a god must likewise be universally understandable, or else you aren't talking about either a Supreme Intelligence or a god, you are talking about a fundamentally evil force and no others.

Every single human being that has ever lived must necessarily have the full capacity innately born into them to be able to properly judge any such being. If not, then the being can only be evil, for it has the power to grant what is necessary, yet withholds it.

It doesn't matter if it is ultimately doing so for "our own good." The act itself is an evil act and therefore definitive proof that such a being is evil.

You can liken this to free will. If we do not have the full capacity to judge a god freely (without coercion of any nature, including promises of rewards or punishment), then such a being is just a dictator, and we have no free will.

If I tell you I will either punch you or hug you, you do not have any free will in that scenario. In either instance, I am inflicting my will upon yours. For you to have free will, there can be absolutely no consequences whatsoever for your choice and one other option MUST be offered (the option to walk away without my having hugged or punched you).

Only then do you have both an actual choice and free will.

 

[excreationist]

Keith&Co and Koyaanisqatsi:
I'll reply to you later

At the moment I have a hunch that an intelligent force has been communicating to me its presence. If it is real, I'm not sure if it is an angel, demon, AI, a god, God, some kind of spirit, a process like in "Interstellar", or a force from within or outside a simulation, etc. When I have been a complete atheist (that only the physical mindless universe exists) I have been very depressed and suicidal. In my original post I mentioned how I came extremely close to killing myself. Perhaps those 2 songs that played (with no other songs) was a coincidence. At my psychiatrist I noted that the thought of having an overdose of heroin or sleeping tablets popped into my head. She was extremely worried and I'll be seeing her more often. I said that as long as I have a hunch that there is an intelligent force, I'll continue to feel very happy with my life. When I thought about suicide it was just for a couple of seconds. I said I'd let my case worker know if I became depressed and she is less concerned now.

Note that a huge proportion of people believe that they can pray to the creator of the universe and he is able to intervene from time to time (not necessarily with miracles). I have a hunch that an intelligent force can intervene (to a highly limited degree) in my own life in order to help me with my day to day issues. (e.g. with my job, etc)

I think an intelligent force only intervenes to a small degree using quantum “randomness”. To make a message appear in the clouds would require an insane degree of tweaking elementary particles but it is theoretically possible.

 

[excreationist]

Well, that's a completely discrete effort from determining that an intelligent force exists, isn't it?

Did you mean to say "discrete"? I don't understand what you're saying.

No, that's not what I am saying.
I'm saying that you pick weird points to suddenly become skeptical.

Having a hunch that an intelligent force exists doesn't have many real world implications other than making me feel like "God" is thinking of me and I can be somewhat optimistic about my life. It can also annoy people who are unable to understand why the hunch is quite strong. On the other hand in lots of cases in history a belief in clear messages from God has resulted in the deaths of other people and/or themselves. (e.g. Christians dying for their faith)

And you're projecting skepticism about a clear message you HAVE NOT RECEIVED, while leaning towards accepting non-impossible-coincidences as significant.

I can comment on hypothetical clear and detailed messages without having had one in real life.

Note that in the Bible there are multiple instances where God commanded seemingly innocent people to be killed.

Well aware of that, ex. But there seems to be a big leap, here, between 'I think an IF exists because of a binding mistake' and 'MESSAGES FROM GOD GETS PEOPLE KILLED!'

But it is true that there are many examples of people thinking they had clear messages from God leading to people getting killed.

I'm not telling you to be prepared for jihad. I'm suggesting that you not jump the gun on things that can still be explained without having to add supernatural elements.

Despite you being unable to see that people accepting obvious detailed messages as being true and trustworthy leading to the possibility of death it is still a real possibility. You don't want it to be true, but it is true.

 

[excreationist]

Then the word "Supreme" has no meaning.

You were the one who used the term.

Yeah, again, that contradicts the "Intelligent" part. There is nothing intelligent about a "loving higher power" that allows a "malicious deceptive force" to hurt people.

Christians would say that their God is perfectly intelligent even though it allowed the talking snake to deceive people. In Job, God explicitly gives Satan permission to make Job suffer as a way of testing Job's faith. The government allows some people to be hurt yet I'd say the government is intelligent. I believe in a force that is in intelligent - even a dog is intelligent. I didn't say it is infinitely intelligent or infinitely loving or omnipotent. Your black and white logic about whether it has any intelligence or not doesn't involve sound reasoning.

You contradict your own constructs. Either there is a Supreme Intelligent Force, or there is not. You can't have a Supreme Intelligent Force that is neither Supreme nor Intelligent.

There could be a higher power without being omnipotent - e.g. it could be a bit like an angel or an AI. That belief system in those two sentences was what a came up with in hospital. Now I simply have a hunch that an intelligent force exists. I think there could be multiple intelligent forces.

Actually in the Bible sometimes God communicates in highly ambiguous and unclear ways

We're not talking about fables written by fallible men thousands of years ago.

I also believe that most of the Bible isn't true. But even outside of the Bible there are people who believe that dreams can be messages from supernatural forces.

Again, not talking about childhood fables.

The Bible is relevant to our world though since most people in the world believe there is a lot of truth in it and that it comes from the creator of the universe. Your thinking is very black and white - it is possible that there is some truth in the Bible without it being infallible.

in many religions there are many gods.

But always one that is Supreme and has power over all others. That's what "Supreme" means.

Sometimes there are multiple gods involved in creation. And forces that communicates with humans are often not the supreme god, often they are angels or some kind of spirit....

Regardless, we are talking about a Supreme Intelligence, which means it would know how to figure out a way to communicate clearly and unambiguously such that you would have no other choice but to know it came directly from it and no other.

I think it can only influence "random" quantum interactions rather than being omnipotent. I see the following joke about God as being insightful: "When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all". That idea is a bit like the X-Files. (though I haven't really seen that show much)

So ANY instance of doubt and/or anything not intelligent (as necessarily measured by YOUR intelligence, because, obviously a Supreme IF would know to craft all communications to your level of intelligence), is incontrovertible proof that you are NOT receiving any communication from such a force.

Many Christians have no doubt that they are receiving messages from God.... on the other hand philosophers have doubts about virtually EVERYTHING except their own existence.

Iow, if YOU do not consider the communication to be intelligent (e.g., it tells you to harm another or yourself; it tells you to perform any act that makes no sense to YOU),

Parents could tell their kids to do things that doesn't make sense to them (e.g. "don't play on the street") but that doesn't prove they aren't loving.

then it cannot possibly be coming from a Supreme IF. A Supreme IF is not capable of deceiving you or communicating anything to you that YOU can't figure out on your own to be an intelligent course of action.

I'm not talking about a Supreme IF.

You don't think it would be important to you to save your daughter from killing herself or others?

Killing Hitler could involve saving the lives of MILLIONS of people. I'm saying your example is relatively not very important. In your example their deaths would probably be swift, unlike what happened in the Holocaust.

I think God showing his existence and showing clues to his nature (e.g. he has a sense of humour) is more important than saving a person in a way that could just be seen as an hallucination.

...So, how would a supremely intelligent being consider letting your daughter kill others or herself funny? If you don't consider it funny, it cannot either.

I meant that if there is a connection between the joke about the meaning of life (42) and me counting the pieces in Connect 4, then God could have a sense of humour. (my pentecostal sister agrees)

Intelligence must be universally understandable. All actions of a god must likewise be universally understandable, or else you aren't talking about either a Supreme Intelligence or a god, you are talking about a fundamentally evil force and no others.

Yes it could be an evil force. Or like a human be a mixture of good and bad.

Note that I didn't reply to all of your post. I focused on the things I disagreed most strongly with.

 

[excreationist]

BTW even though I have a hunch that an intelligent force was telling me that the number 42 was meaningful (when I counted the pieces in Connect 4) I haven't taken it very seriously. I rewatched the Hitch-hiker's Guide to the Galaxy movie with my friend recently. Tonight I started to watch the TV show for the first time. I really like the theme music. In the first episode it said:

“Now it is such a bizarrely improbable coincidence that anything so mind-bogglingly useful could have evolved purely by chance that some thinkers have chosen to see it as the final and clinching proof of the non-existence of God.
​

The argument goes something like this: "I refuse to prove that I exist,'" says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."
​

"But," says Man, "The Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED."
​

"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.
​

"Oh, that was easy," says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next zebra crossing.”​

This is directed to all those people who are saying that all messages from God have to be 100% obvious rather than a possible fluke (like a message in written the clouds)

Then it goes on to say this:

Most leading thelogians claim that this argument is a load of dingo's kidneys. But this didn't stop Oolon Colluphid making a small fortune when he used it as the central theme for his best selling book, "Well That About Wraps It Up For God." Meanwhile the poor Babel Fish, by effectively removing all barriers to communications between different cultures and races, has caused more and bloodier wars than anything else in the history of creation.​

 

[excreationist]

I'm watching episode 2 of HHGTTG. It was about an infinite improbability drive...

I am thinking that maybe intelligent forces can influence quantum "randomness". The spin of a particle that is collapsing (or whatever) would have a 1 in 2 chance of having a particular spin. So the improbability could be calculated. It could involve 1 in 100 chance that a specific outcome happens (like a song playing on the radio) - it is like the "butterfly effect" - that the beating wings of a butterfly could lead to a hurricane. I've read that it is possible for virtual particles to pop in and out of existence. So there is a chance (even with a high improbability) that just about anything can happen (i.e. a miracle).

BTW in Quantum Gravity Research videos they talk about possible retrocausality where the future "you" can influence the past "you".

 

[Keith&Co.]

Despite you being unable to see that people accepting obvious detailed messages as being true and trustworthy leading to the possibility of death it is still a real possibility. You don't want it to be true, but it is true.

I can't see? Okay, you go have your own conversation, then, since you're paying no attention to mine.

 

[excreationist]

Despite you being unable to see that people accepting obvious detailed messages as being true and trustworthy leading to the possibility of death it is still a real possibility. You don't want it to be true, but it is true.

I can't see? Okay, you go have your own conversation, then, since you're paying no attention to mine.

"no attention"?! - you are exaggerating.

I was referring to this:

I'm not telling you to be prepared for jihad

But despite your best intentions I'm saying it could be dangerous to listen to what an obvious message says (like a message written in the clouds). In the past people who thought God was talking to them has sometimes become a matter of life or death (including Christians who died for their faith).

 

[Sarpedon]

Anyway I am seeing a lot of mental health professionals regularly.

Good. Please listen to them better than you've been listening to us.

And have you considered taking a break from fiction? Normally, I don't tell people what to read, but in your case I wonder if it would be advisable for you to get a bit more grounding in reality until your condition improves. I found this book to be very enlightening.

https://www.amazon.com/Mapping-Mind-Rita-Carter/dp/0520266285