My New Argument for a Nonphysical Consciousness

[ryan]

It's not just you.

Dude, you're the one saying 'hypothetical beings would agree with me....if they existed.'

How's that different from saying Spock would take your side?
The Disciple Paul?

Maybe it's just a big misunderstanding on one or both sides.

 

[Kharakov]

The physical properties of a proton are things like mass, spin and electric charge. There is no property such as a chunk of space-time required.

Maybe they have to a have some location, but any specific location can change, thus it is not an intrinsic property.

Having a location is an intrinsic property. The location can change, but the location is always part of the particle and how it behaves. Otherwise a particle on Sirius would bond with Klingons on Uranus.

Hypothetical beings would disagree with me if they didn't exist, said the statement.

 

[ryan]

The physical properties of a proton are things like mass, spin and electric charge. There is no property such as a chunk of space-time required.

Maybe they have to a have some location, but any specific location can change, thus it is not an intrinsic property.

Having a location is an intrinsic property. The location can change, but the location is always part of the particle and how it behaves. Otherwise a particle on Sirius would bond with Klingons on Uranus.

Hypothetical beings would disagree with me if they didn't exist, said the statement.

Having a location might be an intrinsic property. But anything that influences its behavior is its environment. Intrinsic properties don't change.

 

[Kharakov]

Having a location is an intrinsic property. The location can change, but the location is always part of the particle and how it behaves. Otherwise a particle on Sirius would bond with Klingons on Uranus.

Hypothetical beings would disagree with me if they didn't exist, said the statement.

Having a location might be an intrinsic property. But anything that influences its behavior is its environment. Intrinsic properties don't change.

So if something has the intrinsic property of changing location when it is moved, that won't change?

 

[Juma]

It's a physical, not nonphysical, difference.

What are the physical differences between a 10cm long led rod and a 7cm long led rod? Assume they are both pure and have the same width and depth dimensions.

Besides length, is there a physical difference?

Resonances frequencies will differ.

 

[DBT]

Mind A is not 'your' mind.

Mind A is you.

Mind A is not mind B.

Sorry, but your syllogism is based on flawed premises.

"Your mind" is the mind with the history. "His mind" is the clone without the same history. Yet the minds are also identical.

They cannot be identical minds if the memory content of either one is different. Memory encoding is a physical change to the brain which alters patterns of firings in conscious activity, which is experienced as mind. One not being identical to the other...

 

[The AntiChris]

"Your mind" is the mind with the history. "His mind" is the clone without the same history. Yet the minds are also identical.

They cannot be identical minds if the memory content of either one is different.

I suspect that what ryan's arguing is that the memory content is identical but only one is 'real' (i.e. the one associated with original body).

It's a version of the bodily criterion of personal identity in which only the original atoms and and molecules are claimed to endow true personal identity. It's woo.

 

[ryan]

Having a location might be an intrinsic property. But anything that influences its behavior is its environment. Intrinsic properties don't change.

So if something has the intrinsic property of changing location when it is moved, that won't change?

Property A: can change location

Property B: has location

Both properties remain intrinsic (but still a question whether or not they are intrinsic properties).

 

[ryan]

What are the physical differences between a 10cm long led rod and a 7cm long led rod? Assume they are both pure and have the same width and depth dimensions.

Besides length, is there a physical difference?

Resonances frequencies will differ.

Besides all physical differences, is there a physical difference - of course not. The bodies in Sydney and Perth are assumed to be exactly the same.

 

[ryan]

"Your mind" is the mind with the history. "His mind" is the clone without the same history. Yet the minds are also identical.

They cannot be identical minds if the memory content of either one is different. Memory encoding is a physical change to the brain which alters patterns of firings in conscious activity, which is experienced as mind. One not being identical to the other...

You could be a clone that was replaced in your sleep last night, and your memories would be the same as the original DBT tricking you into thinking that you experienced them.

 

[Juma]

Resonances frequencies will differ.

Besides all physical differences, is there a physical difference - of course not. The bodies in Sydney and Perth are assumed to be exactly the same.

There is no differences between the minds in the bodies in sydney and perth.

It is time you give up. This is just silly.

 

[bilby]

They cannot be identical minds if the memory content of either one is different. Memory encoding is a physical change to the brain which alters patterns of firings in conscious activity, which is experienced as mind. One not being identical to the other...

You could be a clone that was replaced in your sleep last night, and your memories would be the same as the original DBT tricking you into thinking that you experienced them.

Indeed he could. And that would change exactly NOTHING.

That's the whole point.

 

[ryan]

Besides all physical differences, is there a physical difference - of course not. The bodies in Sydney and Perth are assumed to be exactly the same.

There is no differences between the minds in the bodies in sydney and perth.

It is time you give up. This is just silly.

There is the original mind. Don't you believe that?

- - - Updated - - -

You could be a clone that was replaced in your sleep last night, and your memories would be the same as the original DBT tricking you into thinking that you experienced them.

Indeed he could. And that would change exactly NOTHING.

That's the whole point.

It isn't a physical, but there is a difference in that one is the original mind.

 

[Juma]

There is no differences between the minds in the bodies in sydney and perth.

It is time you give up. This is just silly.

There is the original mind. Don't you believe that?

If there are no differences then there are no differences. There is nothing special with the "original" mind.

 

[bilby]

There is no differences between the minds in the bodies in sydney and perth.

It is time you give up. This is just silly.

There is the original mind. Don't you believe that?

- - - Updated - - -

You could be a clone that was replaced in your sleep last night, and your memories would be the same as the original DBT tricking you into thinking that you experienced them.

Indeed he could. And that would change exactly NOTHING.

That's the whole point.

It isn't a physical, but there is a difference in that one is the original mind.

Your desire for a conclusion is not evidence supporting that conclusion.

Point me to this difference. If the two brains are physically identical, how could a difference be discerned?

An external observer can't spot this alleged difference; nor can either of the copies. The difference exists only in your desire for a difference to exist. And reality doesn't care.

 

[ryan]

There is the original mind. Don't you believe that?

If there are no differences then there are no differences. There is nothing special with the "original" mind.

If you could see it 4 dimensionally, you would see that the clone's mind is discontinuous where the original is continuous (assuming continuity through the temporal dimension).

 

[Juma]

If there are no differences then there are no differences. There is nothing special with the "original" mind.

If you could see it 4 dimensionally, you would see that the clone's mind is discontinuous where the original is continuous (assuming continuity through the temporal dimension).

So what? That difference is long gone. At the time T when the copy is created there is no difference and this no difference in minds.

 

[ryan]

Your desire for a conclusion is not evidence supporting that conclusion.

Point me to this difference. If the two brains are physically identical, how could a difference be discerned?

An external observer can't spot this alleged difference; nor can either of the copies. The difference exists only in your desire for a difference to exist. And reality doesn't care.

But it is still a true fact about reality whether I have this desire or not.

 

[ryan]

If you could see it 4 dimensionally, you would see that the clone's mind is discontinuous where the original is continuous (assuming continuity through the temporal dimension).

So what? That difference is long gone. At the time T when the copy is created there is no difference and this no difference in minds.

Maybe it's both. Imagine seeing a curved line. But when rotated 90 degrees, it becomes straight. You are saying that the line is straight because you can only see one dimension. The truth is that it's both, curved and straight, depending on which dimension you observe it in.

 

[Juma]

So what? That difference is long gone. At the time T when the copy is created there is no difference and this no difference in minds.

Maybe it's both. Imagine seeing a curved line. But when rotated 90 degrees, it becomes straight. You are saying that the line is straight because you can only see one dimension. The truth is that it's both, curved and straight, depending on which dimension you observe it in.

Bullshit: look at the difference at time T. Period. That is what matters.