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Not as important as petty rockets in Israel, but apparently Malaysian Airliner downed by rocket fire

Did CIA fabricate evidence of WMD in Iraq?
No. In Woodward's Plan of Attack, there was a meeting between the CIA and the White House about evidence for WMDs and it was so underwhelming, the W Admin was angry. So the W boys did their best to to make the most of molehills at the UN. Their other claims about WMDs in Iraq were correct in that there wasn't documentation of destruction and/or the stuff was so old, it would be useless.
That's right. I forgot that Obama and the CIA conspired for this whole Crimea thing to happen just like it did.
Things don't always turn out the way you conspire them.
You think US conspired Iraq to be clusterfuck it is now?
You claimed the Obama/CIA conspired for Crimea to secede from Ukraine and join Russia. A somewhat unbelievably success if true.
 
While I don't want to sound like a dick or take any of the blame for this mass murder off of Putin's shoulders, why the fuck was the plane flying over Ukranian airspace in the first place?

It's a hot war zone where combatants have been shooting down planes for at least a couple of weeks. Shouldn't standard operating procedure be to add a couple of hours to the flight time to loop around the area?

Only since you have been complaining that no one has ansered your question yet....

... Because it is Malasian Airlines... you may have heard of proplems they have been having lately? perhaps?
 
While I don't want to sound like a dick or take any of the blame for this mass murder off of Putin's shoulders,
AS you don't have any evidence Putin is to blame you do run that risk.
What evidence do you have Putin is to blame?

Here we have the same old story. The media and western politicians are telling us how to think, and telling us we need more military intervention from the USA.
 
The fact that Ukraine's Junta and US politics is ultimately responsible does not contradict the fact that rebells actually shot it down.
You have no evidence the rebels shot is down, except a very suspicious "youtube video".:rolleyes:
The International investigation should be asking the Ukraine about their rocket launchers, as we know they that the Ukrainians, not the rebels had Buk missile launchers. The international investigation should be asking to see their inventories.

But no. We have been told what to think and we have been told who did it and we have been told who must be investigated. So it's best we just do as we are told. Everyone must comply.

Why did the Ukranians even have Buk missile launchers in the conflict zone anyway. They are fighting people who have no planes.
 
The fact that Ukraine's Junta and US politics is ultimately responsible does not contradict the fact that rebells actually shot it down.
You have no evidence the rebels shot is down, except a very suspicious "youtube video".:rolleyes:
The International investigation should be asking the Ukraine about their rocket launchers, as we know they that the Ukrainians, not the rebels had Buk missile launchers. The international investigation should be asking to see their inventories.

But no. We have been told what to think and we have been told who did it and we have been told who must be investigated. So it's best we just do as we are told. Everyone must comply.

Why did the Ukranians even have Buk missile launchers in the conflict zone anyway. They are fighting people who have no planes.

The only people in the conflict prior to MH017 who were shooting down planes were the rebels. They were very proud of the fact that they had shot down a couple of Antonov cargo planes that the Ukraine government was using for supply purposes. It seems that they are not all that good at spotting the difference between a medium sized plane at 20,000ft and a large one at 35,000ft. It isn't impossible that someone else shot down MH017, but the first place to look for suspects surely needs to be the yahoos who were known to be shooting at aircraft in the area.

Conspiracy theories are needless - the most parsimonious explanation is the best, and the current evidence points to the rebels as the most likely suspects. Premature analysis of motivation is a sure way to reach erroneous conclusions; the sequence of questions that lead to truth is: What happened; Who made it happen; Why did they make it happen.

By saying 'Why' first, you simply impose your personal bias on all the rest of the process - Define the Ukrainians as 'bad guys' and it becomes easy to say 'So they probably tried to frame the rebels so as to garner international support or sympathy'; but that is putting the cart before the horse.

What happened - a passenger jet was shot down. Most likely it was hit by a Buk missile, but that will not be confirmed until a forensic examination of the remains is completed.
Who made it happen - Unknown. There are three groups who might have done it; the Ukrainian military, the Russian military and the rebels.
Why did they do it - None of these groups stands to gain much by it; the Ukrainian military might come out ahead, but only if they don't get caught setting it up - which would be a big ask; the Russian military really only stand to lose out as a result, so it likely wasn't them; and the rebels are in the same boat. the fourth possibility is that MH017 wasn't the intended target - and in that case, the people responsible would be those who were firing at aircraft - the only aircraft in use in the area are Ukranian, and the only people shooting at them are the rebels.

As you say, the Ukranians are fighting people with no planes. Until and unless the Russian airforce got involved, they have no reason to arm the missiles - but with the possibility of escalation, they would be remiss not to have the units in the area. That easily answers your question - and the question itself contains the answer to 'Are they likely to have fired one of the missiles that they did have in the area?' - the answer is 'No'.

Sure, sometimes people try complex schemes to maliciously smear their opponents. But if choosing between malice and incompetence as competing explanations for a disaster, betting on incompetence will get you the jackpot almost all of the time.

You were happy to accept the dodgy evidence that MH017 had 'been diverted' from its flightpath as evidence for your hypothesis; now that that evidence has been shown to be totally wrong, doesn't that suggest that other evidence from the same source should be regarded with at least some degree of suspicion? You are being led by the nose - why not take the blinkers off, and look at the big picture?
 
While I don't want to sound like a dick or take any of the blame for this mass murder off of Putin's shoulders,
AS you don't have any evidence Putin is to blame you do run that risk.
What evidence do you have Putin is to blame?

Here we have the same old story. The media and western politicians are telling us how to think, and telling us we need more military intervention from the USA.

I think I get your drift Blacktown man - but what we do know is - the MH17 was shot down ; such an act would require a special type of missile , the only ones in that area with access to such weapons , are Ukraine Govt , Western Ukraine Rebel Pro Russian Forces and Russian govt forces , so take your pick on who is responsible , most rational people would come down on the side of the West Ukraine Pro Russian rebels , who could only organise the shot with the help of Russians or Russian trained personnel . If this scenario turns out to be correct then Putin is fairly and squarely to blame. if turns out another scenario took place the we will need to apportion the blame to where it lies..
The circumstantial evidence available at the moment would be more than enough to convict Putin in a court of law.
 
The fact that Ukraine's Junta and US politics is ultimately responsible does not contradict the fact that rebells actually shot it down.
You have no evidence the rebels shot is down, except a very suspicious "youtube video".:rolleyes:
The International investigation should be asking the Ukraine about their rocket launchers, as we know they that the Ukrainians, not the rebels had Buk missile launchers. The international investigation should be asking to see their inventories.

But no. We have been told what to think and we have been told who did it and we have been told who must be investigated. So it's best we just do as we are told. Everyone must comply.

Why did the Ukranians even have Buk missile launchers in the conflict zone anyway. They are fighting people who have no planes.

1) We know the rebels seized a Buk--they were bragging about it.

2) Ukraine has little reason to be shooting, the rebels have been shooting.

What makes more sense???
 
You have no evidence the rebels shot is down, except a very suspicious "youtube video".:rolleyes:
The International investigation should be asking the Ukraine about their rocket launchers, as we know they that the Ukrainians, not the rebels had Buk missile launchers. The international investigation should be asking to see their inventories.

But no. We have been told what to think and we have been told who did it and we have been told who must be investigated. So it's best we just do as we are told. Everyone must comply.

Why did the Ukranians even have Buk missile launchers in the conflict zone anyway. They are fighting people who have no planes.

1) We know the rebels seized a Buk--they were bragging about it.

2) Ukraine has little reason to be shooting, the rebels have been shooting.

What makes more sense???

I find Tupac's posts to be depressing. He has far more neutral news at his disposal than most Russians, and yet he buys Putin's line completely. This tells me that the conflict is going to get far worse.....
 
I find Tupac's posts to be depressing. He has far more neutral news at his disposal than most Russians, and yet he buys Putin's line completely. This tells me that the conflict is going to get far worse.....
Aren't you already depressed by the number of wars America starts?
What is your source of "neutral" news?

Putin or Russia's line is that no Buk missile launchers have crossed the border from Russia into eastern Ukraine. Are you disputing this?

Russia's line is that the western media have formed a conclusion before any investigation has taken place. Are you disputing that?

Russia line is that the Ukranian military should also be investigated as we know they had Buk missile launchers in the conflict zone. Are you saying that they should not have to allow independent investigators to look into what they were doing?
 
I find Tupac's posts to be depressing. He has far more neutral news at his disposal than most Russians, and yet he buys Putin's line completely. This tells me that the conflict is going to get far worse.....
Aren't you already depressed by the number of wars America starts?
What is your source of "neutral" news?

Putin or Russia's line is that no Buk missile launchers have crossed the border from Russia into eastern Ukraine. Are you disputing this?

Russia's line is that the western media have formed a conclusion before any investigation has taken place. Are you disputing that?

Russia line is that the Ukranian military should also be investigated as we know they had Buk missile launchers in the conflict zone. Are you saying that they should not have to allow independent investigators to look into what they were doing?

<Sigh> Putin would have far more credibility if he'd recall his special forces in the Ukraine and call down the conflict.
 
While I don't want to sound like a dick or take any of the blame for this mass murder off of Putin's shoulders,
AS you don't have any evidence Putin is to blame you do run that risk.
What evidence do you have Putin is to blame?

Here we have the same old story. The media and western politicians are telling us how to think, and telling us we need more military intervention from the USA.

You mean the guy who gave the anti-aircraft missiles to the untrained idiots? Ya, I put a lot of the blame onto his shoulders.
 
Aren't you already depressed by the number of wars America starts?
What is your source of "neutral" news?

Putin or Russia's line is that no Buk missile launchers have crossed the border from Russia into eastern Ukraine. Are you disputing this?

Russia's line is that the western media have formed a conclusion before any investigation has taken place. Are you disputing that?

Russia line is that the Ukranian military should also be investigated as we know they had Buk missile launchers in the conflict zone. Are you saying that they should not have to allow independent investigators to look into what they were doing?

<Sigh> Putin would have far more credibility if he'd recall his special forces in the Ukraine and call down the conflict.
And US would have had more credibility if they found WMD and in general had any kind of proof before making claims about anything.

- - - Updated - - -

AS you don't have any evidence Putin is to blame you do run that risk.
What evidence do you have Putin is to blame?

Here we have the same old story. The media and western politicians are telling us how to think, and telling us we need more military intervention from the USA.

You mean the guy who gave the anti-aircraft missiles to the untrained idiots? Ya, I put a lot of the blame onto his shoulders.
Yes, Poroshenko.
 
You mean the guy who gave the anti-aircraft missiles to the untrained idiots? Ya, I put a lot of the blame onto his shoulders.
Yes, Poroshenko.

So ... The rebels got the Russian missiles from the new guy they're fighting and not the the head of the Russian military who's backing them?

That's an ... interesting ... opinion.

By "interesting", I, of course, mean stupid.
 
Yes, Poroshenko.

So ... The rebels got the Russian missiles from the new guy they're fighting and not the the head of the Russian military who's backing them?

That's an ... interesting ... opinion.

By "interesting", I, of course, mean stupid.
No it's you who is "interesting"
Putin did not give rebels anything,
It was Poroshenko, rebels admitted it.
 
By "interesting", I, of course, mean stupid.

Maybe our intrepid Kremlin defenders here are not so much stupid as they are afraid of finding a little polonium in their coffee?


Not that "Mahatma" Putin would ever sink to such a level...he is a man of peace, after all.
 
By "interesting", I, of course, mean stupid.

Maybe our intrepid Kremlin defenders here are not so much stupid as they are afraid of finding a little polonium in their coffee?


Not that "Mahatma" Putin would ever sink to such a level...he is a man of peace, after all.
And you must be afraid to be droned down to hell from the sky.
 
Maybe our intrepid Kremlin defenders here are not so much stupid as they are afraid of finding a little polonium in their coffee?


Not that "Mahatma" Putin would ever sink to such a level...he is a man of peace, after all.
And you must be afraid to be droned down to hell from the sky.


So how much does it pay?


I mean, your job propagating Kremlin propaganda. Do you get free t-shirts? Or is there a drawing for an all expenses paid dacha?
 
Don't forget, for these guys Obama is actually running things in Ukraine, and trying desperately to bring Vladimir "Ghandi" Putin into a conflict when he clearly would rather attack his enemies with sunshine and rainbows.

After he kicks a bear's ass in hand to hand combat, stares down a lion, and saves several endangered species by smiling benevolently. Ohh shit, I was describing me.

In Soviet Russia, t-shirt free you.
 
AS you don't have any evidence Putin is to blame you do run that risk.
What evidence do you have Putin is to blame?
Here we have the same old story. The media and western politicians are telling us how to think, and telling us we need more military intervention from the USA.
You mean the guy who gave the anti-aircraft missiles to the untrained idiots? Ya, I put a lot of the blame onto his shoulders.
It's probably best to wait before drawing conclusions. This whole thing is less than 2 days old. There has been no investigation. Yet you know who did it. You know where they got the weapons.
Sadly it's people like you who hastily rush to form conclusions before examining evidence who really will be to blame if WW3 breaks out. But you'll be safe in North America so it might not matter to you.
Here we have the two nations with by far the most nuclear weapons butting heads. It's a very dangerous situation for the entire planet. Yet to you it's some kind of joke apparently. There is a time joke, but when Russia and America are in this situation it is not the time. We need to make sure we get this right. We need to take time and examine the evidence rather than flippantly start casting blame before the evidence has been examined.
 
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