Pelosi: Impeachment Is Moving Forward

[Elixir]

Simple question: do you favor allowing US Presidents to use government resources to compel foreign governments to gather political dirt on opponents?

Of course he does or he'd be condemning Trump, instead of insulting posters who express appropriate contempt and outrage at Trump's treasonous actions. Seems that reading comprehension and intellectual honesty are beyond the perceptual capacity of those who have neither. Witness the congressional trumpdindunuffins.

 

[dismal]

I can read it myself. That is not the problem here.

This was a test to see if anyone here had any a)reading comprehension and b) intellectual honesty.

Apparently no one does.

Simple question: do you favor allowing US Presidents to use government resources to compel foreign governments to gather political dirt on opponents?

Do you want to take a shot at the question I asked? What was the favor?

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

So if the House does pass articles of impeachment, what do you think will happen at the Senate?

Republicans will be forced to go on record and in public trying to deny every particle of smoke coming from the numerous guns that will be placed in front of the American people again and again and again and again.

They are doing that now, of course, but in bits and pieces, where it can easily be ignored. Impeachment proceedings are a huge media circus that take center stage. Any gaff or fuck up or admission gets ripped apart like chum to sharks.

And since the stakes are finally the highest possible, more people pay attention to them.

There will be a LOT of fringe noise, of course, to hide it all and downplay it all and distract from it all and confuse it all--and that will be a pain in the ass and much ado about nothing--but as we saw in similar instances of noise over substance, through all of that smoke a majority of Americans will get the truth.

But more importantly, of course, will be the impact on the republican (small "r"; voters) and right-leaning independents who are already abandoning Trump. In the most recent YouGov poll regarding whether or not respondents support impeachment if Trump did what we now have incontrovertible proof that he did, 32% of republicans support impeachment! That's right now. On top of that, there's a total of an additional 27% who are on the fence.

Iow, a total of 59% of republican voters will be watching and paying attention and sitting on the fences, etc.

Among indies, it's even higher. A total of 78%. And since they make up the largest voting bloc, that's even worse for Trump.

ALL of which translates into the Republicans (big "r"; ratfuckers) in the Senate--particularly those looking at re-election and still fearing what happened in 2018 happening to them--facing 59% fence sitters in their own party and 78% among indies. That's not just a huge risk to take in close-race states, that's a huge risk to take in full-bore red states.

Which in turn means they will have to take more and more ludicrous positions to apologize for Trump's clearly guilty behavior/actions making them even more transparently full of shit in the eyes of those 59 and 78 percenters in their states.

Right now, the prevalent spin--that it was "bad judgement" but doesn't rise to the level of impeachment--is already conceding Trump is guilty.

That's where we stand now and the process hasn't even begun yet, with Trump's side already conceding he committed the crime, just that it's not all that big of a deal in and of itself and it's bad, but, hey, just smack his hand, right?

So the die is already cast. It now becomes whether or not he fights it or resigns. And the level of defeatism that was evident in his rambling UN speech argues for resignation, but of course, he's hell bent on crashing his car.

 

[AirPoh]

I think it would help if the media defined “high crimes and misdemeanors” for the general
public; it’s history and meaning at the time the phrase was adopted. I don’t know that people are necessarily connecting it to “abuse of office”. The two terms need to be spoken in tandem and connected.

And this: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...ward-about-trump-ukraine-matter-idUSKBN1WC0E1 They opened their mouths, they better be willing to step up.

That's not the media's job.

 

[ZiprHead]

According to a couple of recent polls, support among Americans is increasingly supportive of impeachment. I don't have a link because I saw the polls on tv and I don't have time right now to look for a link. But, this is similar to what happened when Nixon was under investigation. When he resigned, there were still about 25% of Americans who supported him. This may be what happens with Trump. His hardcore base will believe the right wing media pundits and continue to support him, but hopefully others will finally see the man for who he really is.

I was about to say the same thing. It's up to almost fifty percent in favor of impeachment. That's after just one hearing. Imagine what it will be after more hearings about Trump's malfeasance.

 

[Politesse]

So if the House does pass articles of impeachment, what do you think will happen at the Senate?

It'll stop right there. But we won't forget.

Kinda. The Senate will have to hold a trial, and then the vote will be against removing him from office. At that point he can claim "See? I was vindicated!" He's counting on people not forgetting the verdict.

But during the trial, what do you think will happen?

Hard to say. It's not even true that the Senate has to have a trial, they could forego it if they wanted to - that's a right, not on obligation, and I have a hard time ever predicting McConnell, to be frank. He doesn't have Trump's maverick reputation, but it doesn't surprise that they are political simpaticos, as they are both fundamentally amoral and do not consider themselves to owe anything to convention unless they are forced to. McConnell is just a hell of a lot smarter and quieter about it. And if there is a trial, we'd still be largely hanging on guesswork about McConnell and Chief Justice Roberts (who would nominally preside over it). Presuming he's still got all the Senate Republicans at his beck and call, McConnell would have extraordinary control over that trial as well, since the Senate can overrule the Justice on anything procedural with a majority vote. I can already see the convoluted "hearsay" argument they would construct to make the most damning evidence inadmissible to the trial.

Their only actual role is to vote on whether to accept or reject the articles of impeachment themselves. They cannot exonerate the president of any, say, criminal charges. But you are correct that Trump and his friends would treat the inevitable vote as an exoneration. They treat outright accusations as exonerations.

 

[KeepTalking]

I can read it myself. That is not the problem here.

This was a test to see if anyone here had any a)reading comprehension and b) intellectual honesty.

Apparently no one does.

Simple question: do you favor allowing US Presidents to use government resources to compel foreign governments to gather political dirt on opponents?

Do you want to take a shot at the question I asked? What was the favor?

I will take a shot. The favor was to investigate Joe and Hunter Biden, Trump's political opponent and his opponents son.

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

Do you want to take a shot at the question I asked?

You mean, "have you stopped beating your wife?"

What was the favor?

There were two. You know this, but are playing an asinine dance with yourself, thinking you've tripped everyone up with a fallacy. Always playing checkers at a chess match. It must be exhausting.

But let's examine the one "favor" that you pathetically think you've tripped us up with, regarding Hillary Clinton. Let's just say that's the only "favor" Trump specified (which is the literalism you're hanging your hat on). He starts by unnecessarily recounting information Zelensky already knows and has been fully briefed on; that the US is an important military and financial ally. Trump even goes out of his way to establish that we--and we alone--are the Ukraine's staunchest ally, but there has been no reciprocity. We give to you, but you give us nothing in return and that's why I've ordered all aid to the Ukraine be held up.

Zelensky clearly acknowledges his understanding of what Trump is setting up. He unbuckles his pants and starts to eagerly lube up his asshole in anticipation of what comes next.

According to your literalism argument, what comes next--Trump's only "favor" and the reason he's held up hundreds of millions of dollars and military equipment likely resulting in severe hardships if not actual deaths--is that the newly elected President of the Ukraine get Trump's personal lawyer and the AG (who denies this) a server Trump already knows does not exist and that would have absolutely nothing to do with the Ukraine regardless, let alone with the newly elected President of the Ukraine.

That would literally be like the President of the United States of America withholding hundreds of millions of dollars in aid to, say, the newly elected President of a foreign country unless and until he does a favor in regard to helping Trump's top advisors find out who faked the moon landing.

So that is the utter stupidity you (and your death rattle gaggle) are desperately trying to argue is all Trump did in that phone call.

 

[Politesse]

"bad judgement" but doesn't rise to the level of impeachment

Boy, have we heard that one before...

Impeachments are such a clown show. Remember when we all thought lying was an impeachable offense?

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

According to a couple of recent polls, support among Americans is increasingly supportive of impeachment. I don't have a link because I saw the polls on tv and I don't have time right now to look for a link. But, this is similar to what happened when Nixon was under investigation. When he resigned, there were still about 25% of Americans who supported him. This may be what happens with Trump. His hardcore base will believe the right wing media pundits and continue to support him, but hopefully others will finally see the man for who he really is.

I was about to say the same thing. It's up to almost fifty percent in favor of impeachment. That's after just one hearing. Imagine what it will be after more hearings about Trump's malfeasance.

Fyi: Most Americans support impeachment if Trump pressured Ukraine. I break down the numbers above, but it's currently at 55% overall support for impeachment, with 25% on the fence ("don't know" and "somewhat oppose") and only 20% strongly opposing.

That's today, so, yes, we haven't even begun and it's already a shit show for Trump.

 

[southernhybrid]

Jeff Flake said this morning that if the Republicans in the Senate could vote anonymously, about 34 of them would support impeachment. What a bunch of chicken shits! Perhaps as the public supports impeachment in greater numbers, they will grow a pair and do the right thing.

Meanwhile, my neighbors who we call "the rednecks" put a big Trump flag on the back of one of their huge ugly pick up trucks so they could drive around town to piss off the liberals. Those are the types that will never admit that Trump is a criminal.

 

[KeepTalking]

Meanwhile, my neighbors who we call "the rednecks" put a big Trump flag on the back of one of their huge ugly pick up trucks so they could drive around town to piss off the liberals. Those are the types that will never admit that Trump is a criminal.

Slight correction. Those are the types who don't care that Trump is a criminal. So long as Trump pisses-off liberals, he's their man.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

According to a couple of recent polls, support among Americans is increasingly supportive of impeachment. I don't have a link because I saw the polls on tv and I don't have time right now to look for a link. But, this is similar to what happened when Nixon was under investigation. When he resigned, there were still about 25% of Americans who supported him. This may be what happens with Trump. His hardcore base will believe the right wing media pundits and continue to support him, but hopefully others will finally see the man for who he really is.

I was about to say the same thing. It's up to almost fifty percent in favor of impeachment. That's after just one hearing. Imagine what it will be after more hearings about Trump's malfeasance.

Fyi: Most Americans support impeachment if Trump pressured Ukraine. I break down the numbers above, but it's currently at 55% overall support for impeachment, with 25% on the fence ("don't know" and "somewhat oppose") and only 20% strongly opposing.

That's today, so, yes, we haven't even begun and it's already a shit show for Trump.

It is up to the GOP. There will be no impeachment... only resignation. The GOP can't vote to kick Trump out of office, it'd be a huge blow. Of course, on the other hand, the GOP telling Trump to resign will likely have an unknown result that could hurt the GOP a lot.

 

[blastula]

According to a couple of recent polls, support among Americans is increasingly supportive of impeachment. I don't have a link because I saw the polls on tv and I don't have time right now to look for a link. But, this is similar to what happened when Nixon was under investigation. When he resigned, there were still about 25% of Americans who supported him. This may be what happens with Trump. His hardcore base will believe the right wing media pundits and continue to support him, but hopefully others will finally see the man for who he really is.

I was about to say the same thing. It's up to almost fifty percent in favor of impeachment. That's after just one hearing. Imagine what it will be after more hearings about Trump's malfeasance.

Fyi: Most Americans support impeachment if Trump pressured Ukraine. I break down the numbers above, but it's currently at 55% overall support for impeachment, with 25% on the fence ("don't know" and "somewhat oppose") and only 20% strongly opposing.

That's today, so, yes, we haven't even begun and it's already a shit show for Trump.

The poll was conducted before Pelosi's announcement. Could be higher now.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Fyi: Most Americans support impeachment if Trump pressured Ukraine. I break down the numbers above, but it's currently at 55% overall support for impeachment, with 25% on the fence ("don't know" and "somewhat oppose") and only 20% strongly opposing.

That's today, so, yes, we haven't even begun and it's already a shit show for Trump.

The poll was conducted before Pelosi's announcement. Could be higher now.

The quiet hushes in the Senate indicate the GOP is a bit worried and the trends in these polls must be scaring them.

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

Fyi: Most Americans support impeachment if Trump pressured Ukraine. I break down the numbers above, but it's currently at 55% overall support for impeachment, with 25% on the fence ("don't know" and "somewhat oppose") and only 20% strongly opposing.

That's today, so, yes, we haven't even begun and it's already a shit show for Trump.

It is up to the GOP. There will be no impeachment... only resignation. The GOP can't vote to kick Trump out of office, it'd be a huge blow.

Not with a total of 59% of republican voters and 78% of indies already over or sitting on the in favor of fence. And that will only increase.

And, of course, to average Americans (iow, those who participated in that poll), "impeachment" equates to Trump out of office.

Of course, on the other hand, the GOP telling Trump to resign will likely have an unknown result that could hurt the GOP a lot.

Actually, that would be seen as favorable to the 59/78. And, like I pointed out previously, the big R's are already throwing Trump under the bus by conceding he's guilty, but golly gee willikers, does it rise to the level...?

Yes, it does, as 59/78 strongly indicates. So those who get ahead of it and are seen to be sadly, but dutifully patting Trump on the back as they nevertheless kick him out of office, could make all the difference in the close-run states.

That's the only concern Republicans in the Senate now face. How do they handle the inevitable. And, again, even for deep-red states, 59/78 is a HUGE concern. So they've already laid out the "it's a sad state of affairs--look how tough Democrats are being--but the dignity of the office and of the man shows us that we're above Democrats, so while I was sorry to see Trump go, vote for me" kind of spin.

That's precisely what that rhetorical of "bad, but does it rise to the level?" is prepping. You start asking that question now and insisting that the focus is on the level of punishment and that gets you out of the line of fire later on when you vote (or, more likely, simply abstain) against Trump if he doesn't resign.

They will paint themselves as reluctant diehards up against an overwhelmingly unfair Democratic "wall" and all the blather about how unfair are Democrats and how they, the diehards, had no choice, but fought the good fight and blah blah blah.

You can already see it. It's all right there in that one rhetorical. They've already conceded the key element; that Trump is guilty. They're just trying to refocus on the punishment, but the fact that he's guilty is established.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Meanwhile in People at the White House don't want to go to prison...

In a statement provided to CNN, a senior White House official says it was under the direction of National Security Council attorneys: "NSC lawyers directed that the classified document be handled appropriately."

Lying now is an all-in action. 48 convictions in the Watergate scandal. Who did what and at who's direction is going to be a theme.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Meanwhile, my neighbors who we call "the rednecks" put a big Trump flag on the back of one of their huge ugly pick up trucks so they could drive around town to piss off the liberals. Those are the types that will never admit that Trump is a criminal.

Slight correction. Those are the types who don't care that Trump is a criminal. So long as Trump pisses-off liberals, he's their man.

Exactly. These are the types who responded to the first hint of Russian involvement with approval, as long as what they did kept Hillary out of office.

 

[Fentoine Lum]

Jeff Flake said this morning that if the Republicans in the Senate could vote anonymously, about 34 of them would support impeachment. What a bunch of chicken shits! Perhaps as the public supports impeachment in greater numbers, they will grow a pair and do the right thing.

Meanwhile, my neighbors who we call "the rednecks" put a big Trump flag on the back of one of their huge ugly pick up trucks so they could drive around town to piss off the liberals. Those are the types that will never admit that Trump is a criminal.

Perhaps an utterly corrupt political system that offers nothing but the lessor of two evils ain't all it's cracked up to be? I mean it must be pointed out that we are endlessly, fecklessly attempting to export our "way of life", "values" and economic/political system via war, force, interventionist destabilizations of other nations, state violence/terror and occupation.

 

[blastula]

Kind of odd that you couldn't read the 5 pages for yourself, dismal... Almost as if despite the fact that Trump himself said he had asked Zelensky to re-open the bullshit "Biden investigation", you think trumpdindunuffin. Is that the case, dismal?

I can read it myself. That is not the problem here.

This was a test to see if anyone here had any a)reading comprehension and b) intellectual honesty.

Apparently no one does.

dismal is offering lessons on reading comprehension and intellectual honesty?