Police Misconduct Catch All Thread

[Derec]

Really? Because it seems that the police executed him to save themselves the trouble of arresting him.

That is a very serious allegation for which there is absolutely no evidence.
What most likely happened is that the police went in looking for a perp known to be violent and owning a gun. So when he made a sudden move with an object in his hand, a cop fired.
There is no evidence he did that in order to not go through the trouble of arresting him. Shootings have a lot more paperwork than arrests, so that does not even make any sense.

Now, if he had just shot up a school or concert or mall or something like that, I'd say that they were possibly justified, although they could have easily killed his aunt or someone else.

Wrong. If you believe this was an "execution" to "save themselves the trouble of arresting him" then it would be murder no matter what crime the perp committed.
Now of course, there is no evidence anything like that happened here.

 

[bilby]

I think the important lesson Derec wants to take from this is "It couldn't happen to Derec".

Damn right. There is no reason for me to be a target of a violent felony warrant.

Of course there is. All that's needed is fir your neighbour to be suspected, and for a clerk at the police department or the courthouse to make a simple typo.

Or for someone who dislikes you to make a fake report.

Or for someone to steal your identity, and commit crimes in your name.

There are plenty of reasons, and you have little or no control over them.

This, of course, is nonsense; If police shoot people without just cause, that puts us all at risk of being shot by the police.

At most, this was a mistake.

So, you admit that mistakes happen. Which makes absolutely everyone, no matter how innocent or how cautious, a possible victim.

Including YOU.

Not a deliberate action to shoot somebody without just cause.

And such mistakes happen much more often when police perceive that there is a danger.
It is not a coincidence that police shootings, even those that were not justified (like say Daunte Wright) most often happen to people with long rap sheets and/or serious warrants.

None of which protects you in any way from being the victim of a similar "mistake".

If you burst into someone's home at night and wake them, they have the right to respond with armed force under your country's daft laws.

Yet even if they are NOT armed, and merely respond without instant and unequivocal obedience, you feel comfortable with them being shot. Yet you would not feel comfortable with you being shot in exactly similar circumstances; And you STILL deny that it could be you next.

Well, it absolutely could. While cops are both imperfect, and prone to escalate to lethal force without pause, everyone is at risk. That risk is massively greater if they execute 'no knock' warrants, or attempt to arrest and/or search in the early hours.

You are very much in danger, and denial isn't going to help you (though not being black might help a little).

 

[Toni]

Really? Because it seems that the police executed him to save themselves the trouble of arresting him.

That is a very serious allegation for which there is absolutely no evidence.
What most likely happened is that the police went in looking for a perp known to be violent and owning a gun. So when he made a sudden move with an object in his hand, a cop fired.
There is no evidence he did that in order to not go through the trouble of arresting him. Shootings have a lot more paperwork than arrests, so that does not even make any sense.

Now, if he had just shot up a school or concert or mall or something like that, I'd say that they were possibly justified, although they could have easily killed his aunt or someone else.

Wrong. If you believe this was an "execution" to "save themselves the trouble of arresting him" then it would be murder no matter what crime the perp committed.
Now of course, there is no evidence anything like that happened here.

So far, I have not read any account that contradicts that he had just carried his father’s casket and was hugging his aunt when he was shot in the back.

Except the police narrative which claims he had a gun in his hand. 20 years ago, I would have believed the police version, no question. Unfortunately, I find that entirely too convenient for the police given the number of police shootings of unarmed individuals.

I also think that if he were known to be violent, had demonstrated a propensity towards towards violence, or was wanted for a violent crime, that information would be all over the news. Maybe it is and I just haven’t seen it yet.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Murder, to me, implies intent to kill. I'd say negligent manslaughter. Anyone who expects a person that is asleep and expects them to obey orders shouted to them when they immediately wake up... shouldn't be a police officer or have access and legal authority to use a gun.

Exactly. In raids too many people die because the police rely on shock tactics to avoid resistance--but that also means stunned people who sometimes aren't fully aware of the situation.

That's why I would like to see how such things are handled--if they have to hit hard it should be with robots that are armed with no more than tasers.

 

[ZiprHead]

Columbus police release body camera footage of fatal police shooting in the Hilltop

In the past eight days, there have been three unrelated police shootings, including a fatal police shooting early Tuesday morning.

www.usatoday.com

 

[laughing dog]

I think the important lesson Derec wants to take from this is "It couldn't happen to Derec".

Damn right. There is no reason for me to be a target of a violent felony warrant.

Unless the police have the wrong address.

 

[laughing dog]

Well, if one has to use racist stereotypes to make assumptions, then yes.

The mainstream media is treating white and black perps differently. So if you want to call out racism, that would be it.

In this case, the victim - Mr. Owens - was white (this link - WV police shoot white fugitive - has a photograph of Mr. Owens).

Yes, it has a photo of Owens at court, wearing his county issued orange jumpsuit. They don't do that for blacks shot by police. Then it's photos with infants or similar flattering ones.
Take Daunte Wright. His case had zero to do with his reproductive status. So why do CNN and other "liberal" media outlets choose photos of him holding a child? Rather than a photo of him holding a gun, which is relevant to the gun charges he had a warrant for?

Thanks for providing more support for my observation with your carefully cherry-picked anecdotes.

 

[Derec]

Thanks for providing more support for my observation with your carefully cherry-picked anecdotes.

Those are not cherry-picked anecdotes. It's how the "liberal" media tends to cover these shootings.

 

[Derec]

So, you admit that mistakes happen. Which makes absolutely everyone, no matter how innocent or how cautious, a possible victim.

Sure, it's possible. Many things are possible. It is very unlikely though.

If you burst into someone's home at night and wake them, they have the right to respond with armed force under your country's daft laws.

Not against police serving a lawful warrant.
As to "daft laws"? Take police out for a moment. Do you really think it's "daft" that the law allows you to defend yourself against home intruders and robbers in your own home?

Yet even if they are NOT armed, and merely respond without instant and unequivocal obedience, you feel comfortable with them being shot. Yet you would not feel comfortable with you being shot in exactly similar circumstances;

And you STILL deny that it could be you next.

It is very unlikely that it will happen to me. And the probability that it will happen to me NEXT is infinitesimal.

Well, it absolutely could. While cops are both imperfect, and prone to escalate to lethal force without pause, everyone is at risk.

There are gradations of risk.

That risk is massively greater if they execute 'no knock' warrants, or attempt to arrest and/or search in the early hours.

This was not a no-knock warrant. Police were banging on the door of apartment H for over 5 minutes yelling for Donovan Lewis to come out. It was a late hour, I will give you that.

You are very much in danger, and denial isn't going to help you (though not being black might help a little).

Coming to the door while police are banging on it for five minutes instead of hiding in your room would help much more actually.

 

[Derec]

Columbus police release body camera footage of fatal police shooting in the Hilltop

In the past eight days, there have been three unrelated police shootings, including a fatal police shooting early Tuesday morning.

www.usatoday.com

Full video is also on YouTube.

 

[Derec]

So far, I have not read any account that contradicts that he had just carried his father’s casket and was hugging his aunt when he was shot in the back.

Are you talking about a different case? Because this guy (Donovan Lewis) was shot in his room during the service of a felony warrant.

I also think that if he were known to be violent, had demonstrated a propensity towards towards violence, or was wanted for a violent crime, that information would be all over the news. Maybe it is and I just haven’t seen it yet.

Yes, I am pretty positive you are talking about a different case.

 

[laughing dog]

Thanks for providing more support for my observation with your carefully cherry-picked anecdotes.

Those are not cherry-picked anecdotes. It's how the "liberal" media tends to cover these shootings.

Of course they are - you take a couple of examples and make a generalization.

 

[Derec]

Of course they are - you take a couple of examples and make a generalization.

It's not a couple of examples. It's a trend that started at least when CNN et al were using photos of Trayvon Martin when he was 12 or 13 years old to make him look more like "a kid".

 

[Derec]

Exactly. In raids too many people die because the police rely on shock tactics to avoid resistance--but that also means stunned people who sometimes aren't fully aware of the situation.

That surely happens sometimes. But it does not apply at all to this case.
First, they were knocking on the door for over five minutes, identifying themselves and telling Donovan Lewis to come out.
Then, after two men came out and were detained they yelled into the apartment some more. A canine came in and was inside the apartment barking, including right in front of Donovan's door. During that time, police were imploring DL to come out with his hands up. All that took several additional minutes.

I would not call what happened here "shock tactics".

That's why I would like to see how such things are handled--if they have to hit hard it should be with robots that are armed with no more than tasers.

I doubt Columbus police have this good boy, but it is an idea.

 

[bilby]

Not against police serving a lawful warrant.
As to "daft laws"? Take police out for a moment. Do you really think it's "daft" that the law allows you to defend yourself against home intruders and robbers in your own home?

"Take police out for a moment"? Your solution to deciding on the spur of the moment whether or not someone is a police officer is to assume that you needn't make that decision; That, because in either scenario there's a sound course of action, the problem of telling what that course is doesn't exist, even though the correct action in one case gets you killed in the other?

How do you know they're not cops? Is an easy question to answer, just as long as we start by assuming that they're not cops.

Is it reasonable to expect a citizen woken from sleep at 3am by someone breaking down his front door to immediately determine whether the people responsible are police or robbers?

How exactly do you expect this to work?

Let me guess - you expect that if it happens to you, it's not the cops because you're innocent of anything you think of as a crime, and haven't really thought through whether the police concur with your opinions.

And if it happens to others, it's the cops, because "they", unlike "us" are criminals.

And the quick and easy way to spot the difference between "them" and "us" is by skin colour. Which isn't racist because mumble mumble something justified dindu something no angel.

 

[Toni]

So far, I have not read any account that contradicts that he had just carried his father’s casket and was hugging his aunt when he was shot in the back.

Are you talking about a different case? Because this guy (Donovan Lewis) was shot in his room during the service of a felony warrant.

I also think that if he were known to be violent, had demonstrated a propensity towards towards violence, or was wanted for a violent crime, that information would be all over the news. Maybe it is and I just haven’t seen it yet.

Yes, I am pretty positive you are talking about a different case.

I'm sure it is my fault that we were talking about two different cases--extremely busy few days. My apologies. Here is what I was talking about: My post 1255

Police shoot man while he was hugging his aunt at his father’s funeral. No picture of son who was killed by police but father was white. If that matters to anyone.

Man dead after officer-involved shooting at Nutter Fort funeral home

A man is dead after an officer-involved shooting that happened at the Amos Carvelli Funeral Home in Nutter Fort on Wednesday afternoon.

www.wowktv.com

 

[laughing dog]

Of course they are - you take a couple of examples and make a generalization.

It's not a couple of examples. It's a trend that started at least when CNN et al were using photos of Trayvon Martin when he was 12 or 13 years old to make him look more like "a kid".

Adding another anecdote does provide additional evidence to support my observation. That one is particularly useful - the "scary" black teenager victim of a cop wannabee. I am surprised you did not mention that thug extraordinaire, Tamir Rice.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Exactly. In raids too many people die because the police rely on shock tactics to avoid resistance--but that also means stunned people who sometimes aren't fully aware of the situation.

That surely happens sometimes. But it does not apply at all to this case.
First, they were knocking on the door for over five minutes, identifying themselves and telling Donovan Lewis to come out.
Then, after two men came out and were detained they yelled into the apartment some more. A canine came in and was inside the apartment barking, including right in front of Donovan's door. During that time, police were imploring DL to come out with his hands up. All that took several additional minutes.

I would not call what happened here "shock tactics".

It appears the guy didn't wake up. Some people can sleep through a lot of noise.

That's why I would like to see how such things are handled--if they have to hit hard it should be with robots that are armed with no more than tasers.

I doubt Columbus police have this good boy, but it is an idea.
View attachment 40115

I wasn't picturing something anywhere near that fancy--the cops open the door, the robot just walks in.

 

[Derec]

It appears the guy didn't wake up. Some people can sleep through a lot of noise.

I have a hard time believing he slept through all that commotion, including a dog barking in the rather small apartment for a couple of minutes.

It also does not seem that he just woke up when the door was opened. He was already in a kneeling position on his bed.
I think the officer may have acted rashly, but at the same time I understand how he would perceive danger here.

I wasn't picturing something anywhere near that fancy--the cops open the door, the robot just walks in.

That would still put officers in danger - those inner doors are very thin and would not even provide cover against birdshot.

 

[Derec]

That one is particularly useful - the "scary" black teenager victim of a cop wannabee.

He was 17 and did not look the way CNN et al wanted to portray him as looking.

I am surprised you did not mention that thug extraordinaire, Tamir Rice.

Now you are just knocking down straw men, as nobody has called Tamir Rice that.
Note also that he actually was the age CNN wanted St. Trayvon to have been.