Police Misconduct Catch All Thread

[Derec]

I'm sure it is my fault that we were talking about two different cases--extremely busy few days. My apologies. Here is what I was talking about: My post 1255

I see. If he pulled a gun on police then it's pretty open and shut case of justified homicide.

That the decedent was (most likely) white explains why there hasn't been much media attention or any protests.

 

[Derec]

"Take police out for a moment"? Your solution to deciding on the spur of the moment whether or not someone is a police officer is to assume that you needn't make that decision;

In this case at least, it was pretty obvious they were the police.

My question was about which part of our laws do you believe are "daft"? Do you think people have the right to defend themselves against home invaders?
Deputies arrest suspected burglar who was shot during home invasion in Adams Run
Do you think this homeowner should be charged with a crime? Would he be charged with a crime in Australia?

That, because in either scenario there's a sound course of action, the problem of telling what that course is doesn't exist, even though the correct action in one case gets you killed in the other?

That's why police are supposed to identify themselves and are in uniform. Of course, a crafty home invader may fake these, but no system is perfect. Most home invaders do not bother with that. Do you still think laws that allow homeowners to shoot people who want to rob and/or harm them are "daft"?

Is it reasonable to expect a citizen woken from sleep at 3am by someone breaking down his front door to immediately determine whether the people responsible are police or robbers?

Police were banging on the door for over 5 minutes before they entered. The other two residents were detained without incident btw.

Let me guess - you expect that if it happens to you, it's not the cops because you're innocent of anything you think of as a crime, and haven't really thought through whether the police concur with your opinions.

I do not have, nor am I likely to have in the future, any felony warrants. This guy had a warrant for a violent felony. Warrants getting served on you is part of that territory.

And if it happens to others, it's the cops, because "they", unlike "us" are criminals.

Well, if you are wanted for a violent felony you expect knockos to come knocking. Regular people, not so much.

And the quick and easy way to spot the difference between "them" and "us" is by skin colour. Which isn't racist because mumble mumble something justified dindu something no angel.

You and your side is trying to make everything be about skin color. It's "murder" because he was black. Let's go burn down some gas stations or throw Molotovs into police vehicles like Colinford Mattis and Urooj Rahman did in NYC.

 

[bilby]

It appears the guy didn't wake up. Some people can sleep through a lot of noise.

I have a hard time believing he slept through all that commotion, including a dog barking in the rather small apartment for a couple of minutes.

OK, I see we've moved on to the "just making shit up about what might have happened and then assuming it's unassailable truth" phase of the thread, so I am out.

Enjoy your pointless debate about things you cannot possibly know!

 

[Derec]

OK, I see we've moved on to the "just making shit up about what might have happened and then assuming it's unassailable truth" phase of the thread, so I am out.

I am not making anything up. Did you even watch the full video?

 

[bilby]

OK, I see we've moved on to the "just making shit up about what might have happened and then assuming it's unassailable truth" phase of the thread, so I am out.

I am not making anything up. Did you even watch the full video?

What you have a hard time believing isn't something that can be determined by my watching a video.

Nor is it a useful guide to what is true or untrue.

 

[Derec]

What you have a hard time believing isn't something that can be determined by my watching a video.

The reasons why I have a hard time believing it are, and I have stated them in the previous post.
I thought you were objecting to my reasons, not to the belief itself. But I am making neither one of them up, contrary to your allegations.

Whatever you may think, watching the video is useful here. Did you watch it?

 

[Rhea]

I have a hard time believing he slept through all that commotion, including a dog barking in the rather small apartment for a couple of minutes.

My daughter sleeps through fire alarms. Fire. Alarms. Blasting high-pitched alarms intended to reach everyone in the building. She sleeps through them. (This scares us, and we’re trying to find a way to get her to react)

It is not unreasonable at all for a person to not wake up. They could indeed be a heavy sleeper, I have watched that. Or, they could be drunk. This should not get you killed.

I think the officer may have acted rashly, but at the same time I understand how he would perceive create danger here.

FIFY


The police created this moment. They did not have to. They need to take responsibility for what hsppens in their choice. The guy sleeping was… sleeping.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It appears the guy didn't wake up. Some people can sleep through a lot of noise.

I have a hard time believing he slept through all that commotion, including a dog barking in the rather small apartment for a couple of minutes.

It also does not seem that he just woke up when the door was opened. He was already in a kneeling position on his bed.
I think the officer may have acted rashly, but at the same time I understand how he would perceive danger here.

I wasn't picturing something anywhere near that fancy--the cops open the door, the robot just walks in.

That would still put officers in danger - those inner doors are very thin and would not even provide cover against birdshot.

But it would be basically blind fire because they don't know where to aim.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I have a hard time believing he slept through all that commotion, including a dog barking in the rather small apartment for a couple of minutes.

My daughter sleeps through fire alarms. Fire. Alarms. Blasting high-pitched alarms intended to reach everyone in the building. She sleeps through them. (This scares us, and we’re trying to find a way to get her to react)

It is not unreasonable at all for a person to not wake up. They could indeed be a heavy sleeper, I have watched that. Or, they could be drunk. This should not get you killed.

Your daughter isn't the only one, every so often I hear of someone that sleeps through pretty loud things. Personally, I've slept through being thrown halfway out of my bunk. (Sleeper car in a train, they took part of the train off during the night and apparently gave us quite a jolt.) My wife, though, wakes up for every minor jolt as the train stops and starts. (We have taken exactly one sleeper train, never again!)

 

[laughing dog]

That one is particularly useful - the "scary" black teenager victim of a cop wannabee.

He was 17 and did not look the way CNN et al wanted to portray him as looking.

I didn't know you worked for CNN or et al.

I am surprised you did not mention that thug extraordinaire, Tamir Rice.

Now you are just knocking down straw men, as nobody has called Tamir Rice that.
Note also that he actually was the age CNN wanted St. Trayvon to have been.

Actually, some posters did call Tamir Rice a thug. so no straw men there.

Really, you argument is ludicrous.

 

[Derec]

Actually, some posters did call Tamir Rice a thug. so no straw men there.

Who? Do you have a quote .

Really, you argument is ludicrous.

Are you talking to yourself? Also, it's "your".

 

[Derec]

My daughter sleeps through fire alarms. Fire. Alarms. Blasting high-pitched alarms intended to reach everyone in the building. She sleeps through them. (This scares us, and we’re trying to find a way to get her to react)

But this guy wasn't asleep when the cop opened the door. He was already awake. If he was still asleep then your point would make some sense.

The police created this moment. They did not have to.

It's their job to serve warrants. And they should serve warrants and take gun criminals off the streets.

They need to take responsibility for what hsppens in their choice. The guy sleeping was… sleeping.

We do not know when exactly he woke up. We know he wasn't still sleeping when the door opened.
I agree that the cop probably shot prematurely though. But Lewis was awake and somewhat upright/on his knees when that door opened.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

My daughter sleeps through fire alarms. Fire. Alarms. Blasting high-pitched alarms intended to reach everyone in the building. She sleeps through them. (This scares us, and we’re trying to find a way to get her to react)

But this guy wasn't asleep when the cop opened the door. He was already awake. If he was still asleep then your point would make some sense.

The police created this moment. They did not have to.

It's their job to serve warrants. And they should serve warrants and take gun criminals off the streets.

They need to take responsibility for what hsppens in their choice. The guy sleeping was… sleeping.

We do not know when exactly he woke up. We know he wasn't still sleeping when the door opened.
I agree that the cop probably shot prematurely though. But Lewis was awake and somewhat upright/on his knees when that door opened.

Startled awake--most likely he doesn't have a full comprehension of the situation. This is clearly the fault of the police.

 

[Derec]

Startled awake--most likely he doesn't have a full comprehension of the situation. This is clearly the fault of the police.

'
We do not know how long he has been awake. My point is that he wasn't asleep when the door opened, so he isn't one of those people like Rhea's daughter who can sleep through the Apocalypse.

I already acknowledged shooting itself was a mistake by the officer. But how is opening the door his fault? The officers did make their presence known before opening the door. What do you think they should have done tactically? Other then send taser-equipped robots inside.

 

[lpetrich]

Here is something that I consider a positive alternative for policing.

Bodycam Shows Police Tasing Armed Woman in Florida Walmart - YouTube
Woman With Knife in Walmart Tased After Standoff: Cops - YouTube

I like that the cops Tasered her instead of shooting her with a gun, though I don't like that the cop first aimed a gun at her. He ought to have used a Taser right away.

If cops used Tasers more, and other low-lethality weapons also, they would kill fewer people.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Startled awake--most likely he doesn't have a full comprehension of the situation. This is clearly the fault of the police.

'
We do not know how long he has been awake. My point is that he wasn't asleep when the door opened, so he isn't one of those people like Rhea's daughter who can sleep through the Apocalypse.

I already acknowledged shooting itself was a mistake by the officer. But how is opening the door his fault? The officers did make their presence known before opening the door. What do you think they should have done tactically? Other then send taser-equipped robots inside.

It doesn't seem like he was awake until someone messed with the door.

 

[Toni]

Startled awake--most likely he doesn't have a full comprehension of the situation. This is clearly the fault of the police.

'
We do not know how long he has been awake. My point is that he wasn't asleep when the door opened, so he isn't one of those people like Rhea's daughter who can sleep through the Apocalypse.

I already acknowledged shooting itself was a mistake by the officer. But how is opening the door his fault? The officers did make their presence known before opening the door. What do you think they should have done tactically? Other then send taser-equipped robots inside.

Not anymore but prior to having kids, I also slept through fire alarms.

You are predicating all of your version of events on the assumption that people who are startled from sleep by police banging in their doors immediately are fully awake, cognizant if what is happening and WHY it is happening and realize that police have finally caught up with their guilty asses abd are there to take them into custody where they belong because of the numerous crimes they have committed.

Perhaps you have never been unjustly accused of doing something you did not do but I have. It is disorienting in itself as you struggle to figure out just what you are being accused of and simultaneously you are accused of lying because you are t confessing ( which in the US you are not obligated to do). Worse when accusations are being screamed at you. Imagine you are asleep in your bed and this happens and the people yelling at you are pointing loaded guns at you.

I don’t imagine you’d be all cool, calm and collected, immediately compliant and coherent and respectful within nanoseconds of being jolted awake.

 

[Gospel]

Well, if you are wanted for a violent felony you expect knockos to come knocking. Regular people, not so much.

Sounds good, but what if the violent felon is around people who aren't aware of said felony. No knocks while successful some times are dangerous and have caused the death of innocent people at other times. The real question here is, are you ok with innocent civilians losing their lives at the expense of capturing felons?

The question is not directed at you per say (because I already know you're ok with it by how you reacted to Amir Locke who had a license and permit for the gun the police shot him under 10 seconds over).

Edit: Disclaimer. It can easily happen to me, because I'm around a lot of questionable people due to the nature of what I try to do for my immediate community. I imagine some folks might think "well don't be around felons" is an excuse for police to shoot me during a no knock raid but then people need to cut the crap on complaints about black folks like myself not trying to get our shit together.

 

[Derec]

Sounds good, but what if the violent felon is around people who aren't aware of said felony.

Yes, that was what happened to Amir Locke. He was not the target, but pulling the gun on the police led to him being shot.
Or Alteria Woods. She wasn't the target. Her boyfriend's father was. And while he was captured without harm, his son decided to shoot at cops who returned fire.
Obviously, it is impossible to cover all contingencies. Sometimes bad things happen.

I must note though that in the Donovan Lewis case, uninvolved occupants were not harmed.

No knocks while successful some times are dangerous and have caused the death of innocent people at other times.

This was not a no-knock warrant service though.
I think no knock warrants, while they should not be routine, serve a legitimate purpose and therefore should not be categorically banned either.

The real question here is, are you ok with innocent civilians losing their lives at the expense of capturing felons?

Obviously, care should be taken that innocent civilians are not put in undue risk. But zero risk is impossible without giving up on capturing dangerous felons. And I do not think that's a good tradeoff.
Also, there is this saying "lie with dogs and you wake up with fleas". Amir likely knew that his cousin was in some bad shit. Alteria must have known too - the whole Coffee family has a long history of violent crime.

The question is not directed at you per say (because I already know you're ok with it by how you reacted to Amir Locke who had a license and permit for the gun the police shot him under 10 seconds over).

He had no permit to point the piece at the cops. It was reckless to handle the weapon while not fully awake, and he unfortunately paid with his life for that recklessness. I am not happy he is dead, but I neither think any of the police did anything wrong (much less criminal) nor do I think police should stop serving warrants on murder suspect because their cousins might be sleeping with a gat.

Edit: Disclaimer. It can easily happen to me, because I'm around a lot of questionable people due to the nature of what I try to do for my immediate community. I imagine some folks might think "well don't be around felons" is an excuse for police to shoot me during a no knock raid but then people need to cut the crap on complaints about black folks like myself not trying to get our shit together.

Yes, being around felons does put you at a higher risk. Probably far more risk from those felons' rivals (think drivebys) than from police serving warrants though, even if the latter is not negligible in itself.

That said, no knock warrants are a minority of warrant services. Most are like that of Donovan Lewis, where police knock for an extended time (>5min) if needed. And unfortunately, even knock warrants can be deadly.

Now, why can police be so jumpy when warrants are served? Because warrant service can be very dangerous for the police. This happened just a couple of days ago in my neck of the woods.

2 in custody after 2 deputies shot, killed in Cobb County

The officer who shot Lewis probably acted out of fear that this might have been him.

 

[Rhea]

Now, why can police be so jumpy when warrants are served? Because warrant service can be very dangerous for the police.

But they should be fine with that danger, because

Obviously, it is impossible to cover all contingencies. Sometimes bad things happen.

Why are the cops so scared? Sometimes bad things happen, and we’re all good with that, stop whining, Amirite?