Pro-Lifer says, "Let them die if it costs me money"

[TSwizzle]

From my research, there seems to be a better likelihood that they're understated. The resources I'm using report deaths that are directly attributed to positively tested COVID infections.

There has been too much enthusiasm about attributing death by covid 19, particularly in the UK where a lot of deaths are recorded as covid 19 deaths where no testing has been done. I could be wrong as I see mention (but no actual figures) that deaths may be under reported and I've also seen reports of the opposite which I am more inclined to believe due to what I said earlier. But without proper and accurate testing it really is impossible to state that a death is caused by covid 19. I mean, if a 80+ year old person that has one foot in the grave and the other on a banana skin and happened to have difficulty breathing when taken to hospital, is covid 19 really the cause of death ? Nah, I don't think so.

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

Nah, I don't think so.

Like your opinion matters.

 

[ZiprHead]

Cite please.

The CDC estimates that deaths from flu is between 12,000 and 61,000 annually since 2010. 2017/2018 being a particularly bad year, estimated at 60k+ deaths.

61,000 over a year. We're going to reach that in a span of three months with no end in sight.

 

[Jokodo]

From my research, there seems to be a better likelihood that they're understated. The resources I'm using report deaths that are directly attributed to positively tested COVID infections.

There has been to much enthusiasm about attributing death by covid 19, particularly in the UK where a lot of deaths are recorded as covid 19 deaths where no testing has been done. I could be wrong as I see mention (but no actual figures) that deaths may be under reported and I've also seen reports of the opposite which I am more inclined to believe due to what I said earlier. But without proper and accurate testing it really is impossible to state that a death is caused by covid 19. I mean, if a 80+ year old person that has one foot in the grave and the other on a banana skin and happened to have difficulty breathing when taken to hospital, is covid 19 really the cause of death ? Nah, I don't think so.

Particularly in the UK??

In the England and Wales in the week ending April 10, over 18000 deaths were recorded. The expected number for this time if the year is 10000. Only about 6300 I'd the excess 8000 have COVID-19 on their death certificate, and thay includes people that haven't been tested and thus don't show up in some other statistics but where the physician felt confident anyway based in the symptoms.

In the week before, the excess deaths were 6000, only 3000-odd if which are listed as COVID-19 related.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopula...nalfiguresondeathsregisteredinenglandandwales

This is not some newspaper article, this is the official site if their Office of National Statistics with a weekly updated xls of all deaths recorded, split up by sex, age, region and to some degree official cause.

 

[TSwizzle]

61,000 over a year. We're going to reach that in a span of three months with no end in sight.

We certainly will if we fudge the data.

 

[Jokodo]

61,000 over a year. We're going to reach that in a span of three months with no end in sight.

We certainly will if we fudge the data.

Do you have me in ignore? You keep "i haven't seen data" right after I post them.

 

[ZiprHead]

61,000 over a year. We're going to reach that in a span of three months with no end in sight.

We certainly will if we fudge the data.

So says the master of fudging data.

 

[TSwizzle]

61,000 over a year. We're going to reach that in a span of three months with no end in sight.

We certainly will if we fudge the data.

So says the master of fudging data.

Well perhaps "fudging the data" is the wrong terminology. Until we have more accurate and precise data is really what is required.

 

[J842P]

61,000 over a year. We're going to reach that in a span of three months with no end in sight.

We certainly will if we fudge the data.

Data isn't being fudged. Your claim that we cannot get perfect figures without doing comprehensive testing is, quite frankly, an idiotic red herring.

 

[TSwizzle]

Perhaps "fudging the data" is the wrong terminology. Until we have more accurate and precise data is really what is required.

Data isn't being fudged. Your claim that we cannot get perfect figures without doing comprehensive testing is, quite frankly, an idiotic red herring.

Where is the red herring ? Because there is a clamor for rolling out the testing and much admiration for South Korea doing it's testing in keeping the virus in check.

 

[J842P]

Perhaps "fudging the data" is the wrong terminology. Until we have more accurate and precise data is really what is required.

Data isn't being fudged. Your claim that we cannot get perfect figures without doing comprehensive testing is, quite frankly, an idiotic red herring.

Where is the red herring ? Because there is a clamor for rolling out the testing and much admiration for South Korea doing it's testing in keeping the virus in check.

The red herring is that the numbers of deaths is not perfectly accurate. We don't need it to be perfectly accurate to have confidence that it is adequately accurate.

Your claim that "an old person with one foot in the grave that slips on a banana and then get's counted as a COVID-19 death because they happened to have difficulty breathing" is simply a figment of your imagination. That is not at all what is occurring.

Doctors can and do diagnose illnesses with adequate accuracy without laboratory tests.

 

[Emily Lake]

For a sociopath, perhaps. But for human beings, this:

As of Tuesday afternoon, there have been more than 253,400 confirmed cases of the coronavirus in New York, including more than 141,235 in New York City. More than 14,828 people with COVID-19 have died in the state, not including the deaths of people with probable cases.

Nationwide, more than 788,920 cases of COVID-19 have been confirmed across all 50 states, Washington, D.C., and three U.S. territories. More than 42,458 Americans have lost their lives to the virus, and the toll now grows by more than 2,000 each day. COVID-19 has killed more than 171,800 worldwide. The disease has killed far more people in the U.S. than in any other country.

Is not just shocking, it's inexcusable since the vast majority of it would not have happened were it not for Trump's profound incompetence, recklessly endangering narcissism and irrational Obama Derangement Syndrome.

And we haven't even reached peak deaths (even by Trump's own professional liars) or have any idea how severe the anticipated second wave will be, or if there will be a third or fourth or tenth or twentieth wave or how severe those may be, etc.

Thankfully there are now thousands of deplorable dipshits all deliberately infecting each other because their fuhrer told them to in order to save the stock market, so at least we will now start seeing a significant increase in their deaths, as well, which will only be a silver lining in this mounting, unnecessary horror show.

My only caveat here is that "killed more people in the US than any other country" isn't very meaningful. The US has more citizens than almost any other country. China and India are the only countries that have a larger population than the US. China's numbers are 'questionable' if we're being extremely generous about it. And there's a lot of good reason to suspect that India's currently reported numbers are understated, as well as lagging the outbreak in the US.

If you look at cases and deaths per million citizens, the US is pretty solidly middle of the pack. Not great, but not horrible either.

 

[Jokodo]

Perhaps "fudging the data" is the wrong terminology. Until we have more accurate and precise data is really what is required.

Data isn't being fudged. Your claim that we cannot get perfect figures without doing comprehensive testing is, quite frankly, an idiotic red herring.

Where is the red herring ? Because there is a clamor for rolling out the testing and much admiration for South Korea doing it's testing in keeping the virus in check.

Of course much more testing is required. But the argument you seem to be making is that with not enough testing, we don't have good enough figures to justify the lockdown is hilariously wrong.

It's like saying we can go 80 mph on the highway because there's no obstacle in sight - during deep fog that barely lets you see beyond 10 feet.

 

[TSwizzle]

The red herring is that the numbers of deaths is not perfectly accurate.

that is a red herring of your own making as I never said "perfectly accurate".

We don't need it to be perfectly accurate to have confidence that it is adequately accurate.

I remain skeptical of just how accurate the current guesstimates are.

Your claim that "an old person with one foot in the grave that slips on a banana and then get's counted as a COVID-19 death because they happened to have difficulty breathing" is simply a figment of your imagination. That is not at all what is occurring.

I remain unconvinced.

Doctors can and do diagnose illnesses with adequate accuracy without laboratory tests.

Sure they do. But in a number of cases, covid 19 is being used as a catch all for recording deaths in England from what I have read. Which goes back to "an old person with pre existing medical conditions with one foot in the grave and the other on a banana skin" Or put another way, they were already at death's door and covid 19 just happened to open it.

 

[Emily Lake]

I could be wrong as I see mention (but no actual figures) that deaths may be under reported and I've also seen reports of the opposite which I am more inclined to believe due to what I said earlier.

It seems like your position boils down to an argument from incredulity. You don't believe it, therefore it must be false?

 

[Emily Lake]

I remain unconvinced.

I think this pretty much sums up the entirety of your arguments here. I also don't think that you can be convinced. That's not to suggest that convincing evidence doesn't exist, but rather that your confirmation bias is just that strong.

 

[TSwizzle]

I could be wrong as I see mention (but no actual figures) that deaths may be under reported and I've also seen reports of the opposite which I am more inclined to believe due to what I said earlier.

It seems like your position boils down to an argument from incredulity. You don't believe it, therefore it must be false?

It comes from what I said, which is I have read reports in various places where it is says deaths may be overstated and elsewhere reports say understated. But since we know that we don't really have accurate data due to a lack of testing and the sometimes arbitrarily assigned "death by covid 19" in many cases my feeling is that deaths are overstated. So until we get the testing rolled out I will remain skeptical.

 

[Jokodo]

I could be wrong as I see mention (but no actual figures) that deaths may be under reported and I've also seen reports of the opposite which I am more inclined to believe due to what I said earlier.

It seems like your position boils down to an argument from incredulity. You don't believe it, therefore it must be false?

It comes from what I said, which is I have read reports in various places where it is says deaths may be overstated and elsewhere reports say understated. But since we know that we don't really have accurate data due to a lack of testing and the sometimes arbitrarily assigned "death by covid 19" in many cases my feeling is that deaths are overstated. So until we get the testing rolled out I will remain skeptical.

I'd take various nations' and regions' statistical offices over "reports in various places"

like the Netherlands: in the week from April 2-8, 4993 deaths (of all causes) were recorded. That is over 2000 more than expected for the season. Of these, just over 1000 officially COVID-19: https://www.rivm.nl/monitoring-sterftecijfers-nederland

in England and Wales, >18000 deaths were recorded in the week ending April 10, and >16000 in the week before. A normal seasonal mortality is about 10000 per week. of these excess 14000 deaths, only about 10000 were recorded as related to COVID-19: https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopula...nalfiguresondeathsregisteredinenglandandwales

In New York City, from March 11 to April 18, there were besides 8000-odd confirmed and 4000-odd probable/suspected COVID-19 deaths 9000-odd deaths listed as "neither confirmed nor probable COVID-19". The last category alone are about 2500-3000 more than would typically die in that timeframe. https://www1.nyc.gov/site/doh/covid/covid-19-data.page#download

 

[laughing dog]

I've got to ask, what has changed between the end of March and now? Is the virus less pervasive? Is there adequate testing? Has there been a vaccine distributed that I know nothing about? Seriously, what has changed that has made quarantine so untenable?

Stupid people have short attention spans and a need for immediate gratification. Now, they are feeling inconvenienced.

 

[bilby]

From my research, there seems to be a better likelihood that they're understated. The resources I'm using report deaths that are directly attributed to positively tested COVID infections.

There has been too much enthusiasm about attributing death by covid 19, particularly in the UK where a lot of deaths are recorded as covid 19 deaths where no testing has been done. I could be wrong as I see mention (but no actual figures) that deaths may be under reported and I've also seen reports of the opposite which I am more inclined to believe due to what I said earlier. But without proper and accurate testing it really is impossible to state that a death is caused by covid 19. I mean, if a 80+ year old person that has one foot in the grave and the other on a banana skin and happened to have difficulty breathing when taken to hospital, is covid 19 really the cause of death ? Nah, I don't think so.

Well there have been 298% more deaths in New York City between March 11 and April 18 2020 than the average deaths for that period in previous years.

To conclude that there are four times the usual numbers of octogenarians or banana skins in the city this year, is to take obtuseness all the way through idiocy and out towards bat-shit insanity.

But of course you will handwave away 17,200 corpses in less than six weeks, as they don't fit your preferred worldview.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/04/21/world/coronavirus-missing-deaths.html

These numbers undermine the notion that many people who have died from the virus may soon have died anyway. In Paris, more than twice the usual number of people have died each day, far more than the peak of a bad flu season. In New York City, the number is now four times the normal amount.