Pro-Lifer says, "Let them die if it costs me money"

[bilby]

that is a red herring of your own making as I never said "perfectly accurate".




I remain skeptical of just how accurate the current guesstimates are.

Your claim that "an old person with one foot in the grave that slips on a banana and then get's counted as a COVID-19 death because they happened to have difficulty breathing" is simply a figment of your imagination. That is not at all what is occurring.

I remain unconvinced.

Doctors can and do diagnose illnesses with adequate accuracy without laboratory tests.

Sure they do. But in a number of cases, covid 19 is being used as a catch all for recording deaths in England from what I have read. Which goes back to "an old person with pre existing medical conditions with one foot in the grave and the other on a banana skin" Or put another way, they were already at death's door and covid 19 just happened to open it.

This is only evidence that you are reading unreliable sources. The raw data (as presented upthread by Jokodo) from the UK Office of National Statistics, shows that this cannot possibly be true.

You should stop trusting those liars; The best possible interpretation of their misinformation is that they are fucking idiots who can't do simple arithmetic.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I will mention again, that the 61,000 is the deaths over AN ENTIRE YEAR, versus the current US death toll of 42,000 over less than two months, with social distancing in place for a large part of it?

A "flu season" would be more accurate. Also, the number of deaths attributed as being caused by covid 19 are undoubtedly well over stated as is the fatality rate. It's serious, but so far things appear to be in line with a particularly bad flu season.

The Covid-19 deaths are definitely understated--we are seeing a lot of extra deaths at home that aren't diagnosed.

 

[lpetrich]

Conservatives ignoring the COVID-19 virus is so out of character for them that one has to ask what is going on.

One possibility is troll-the-libs tendencies. Nikki Haley tells students to avoid 'own the libs' behaviour - BBC News

"I know that it's fun and that it can feel good, but step back and think about what you're accomplishing when you do this. Are you persuading anyone? Who are you persuading?" Ms Haley asked.

"We've all been guilty of it at some point or another, but this kind of speech isn't leadership. It's the exact opposite."

"Real leadership," the ambassador said, "is about persuasion, it's about movement, it's bringing people around to your point of view".

"Not by shouting them down, but by showing them how it is in their best interest to see things the way you do," Ms Haley said.

It got responses like

"As soon as she has the same conversation with her boss I'll be impressed," one Twitter user wrote.

More generally, it may be wanting to take the opposite side from the lib-buh-ruhls.

Whatever is their reason, it is something that makes them willing to accept what they complain about Communists doing: mass murder.

 

[Emily Lake]

Well there have been 298% more deaths in New York City between March 11 and April 18 2020 than the average deaths for that period in previous years.

To conclude that there are four times the usual numbers of octogenarians or banana skins in the city this year, is to take obtuseness all the way through idiocy and out towards bat-shit insanity.

But of course you will handwave away 17,200 corpses in less than six weeks, as they don't fit your preferred worldview.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/04/21/world/coronavirus-missing-deaths.html

These numbers undermine the notion that many people who have died from the virus may soon have died anyway. In Paris, more than twice the usual number of people have died each day, far more than the peak of a bad flu season. In New York City, the number is now four times the normal amount.

I was just about to post a link to that very same article.

 

[TSwizzle]

Of course much more testing is required. But the argument you seem to be making is that with not enough testing, we don't have good enough figures to justify the lockdown is hilariously wrong.

That's not my argument though. My argument is and always has been that the lock down has done its job, i.e. stemmed the flow so that the hospitals are not overwhelmed and it is time to ease up on the lockdown, not lift it entirely. The lockdown was justified initially but I don't see enough evidence to let it continue.

 

[Emily Lake]

That's not my argument though. My argument is and always has been that the lock down has done it's job, i.e. stemmed the flow so that the hospitals are not overwhelmed and it is time to ease up on the lockdown, not lift it entirely. The lockdown was justified initially but I don't see enough evidence to let it continue.

That's kind of the crux of the challenge here. The lockdown has slowed the spread effectively... but it hasn't eradicated the virus, nor have we come anywhere near to herd immunity level exposure. The spread has slowed because the lockdown is effective. Ease up on the lockdown, and the spread will increase. The hard part is trying to find the right balance point. What's the acceptable rate of spread? What types of businesses should we open? Which should remain closed? How do we keep the spread at an acceptable rate, while allowing people to avoid going insane from isolation? What is the right balance between widespread pandemic and overwhelmed hospitals and widespread unemployment and poverty?

I'm relieved I'm not the person trying to come up with an answer to those questions.

 

[TSwizzle]

That's kind of the crux of the challenge here. The lockdown has slowed the spread effectively... but it hasn't eradicated the virus, nor have we come anywhere near to herd immunity level exposure.

It seems we will never eradicate the virus entirely and to some extent it's something we are just going to have to live (or die) with until a working vaccine is developed that keeps the destruction at an acceptable/tolerable level or the spread is enough to build up the herd immunity so the impact is greatly reduced. This is why the lockdown needs to be eased off. Otherwise the lockdown, in the long run will do more harm than good.

 

[Emily Lake]

It's like you purposefully cut out the hard questions in my post. As if not quoting them makes them not exist?

 

[TSwizzle]

It's like you purposefully cut out the hard questions in my post. As if not quoting them makes them not exist?

I assumed they were rhetorical questions.

 

[Elixir]

That's not my argument though. My argument is and always has been that the lock down has done it's job

Your argument is based on a fantasy.
Right now as I type, there are hours to go in the day (GMT) and the US has already reached new heights in both deaths (+2,658) and serious/critical cases (14,016). Keep in mind that once you die, you are no longer a critical case. So those numbers are at their historical high, with indicators that there is much more headroom before we hit any kind of ceiling.
I've been expecting your lame line about misattributed deaths, and venture the prediction that soon the claim will include the fabrication that the critical cases are Democrat-hired actors.

 

[Emily Lake]

It's like you purposefully cut out the hard questions in my post. As if not quoting them makes them not exist?

I assumed they were rhetorical questions.

Rhetorical-ish. I wasn't particularly looking for specific answers to them, so much as looking for acknowledgement that they're tough questions with no singularly good answer. I'd like to think they're items you've given some thought and consideration to rather than just brushing them aside.

 

[ZiprHead]

Of course much more testing is required. But the argument you seem to be making is that with not enough testing, we don't have good enough figures to justify the lockdown is hilariously wrong.

That's not my argument though. My argument is and always has been that the lock down has done its job, i.e. stemmed the flow so that the hospitals are not overwhelmed and it is time to ease up on the lockdown, not lift it entirely. The lockdown was justified initially but I don't see enough evidence to let it continue.

You're asking for a peeing section in a pool.

 

[TSwizzle]

You’re just wasting bandwidth.

 

[ZiprHead]

You’re just wasting bandwidth.

 

[TV and credit cards]

Of course much more testing is required. But the argument you seem to be making is that with not enough testing, we don't have good enough figures to justify the lockdown is hilariously wrong.

That's not my argument though. My argument is and always has been that the lock down has done its job, i.e. stemmed the flow so that the hospitals are not overwhelmed and it is time to ease up on the lockdown, not lift it entirely. The lockdown was justified initially but I don't see enough evidence to let it continue.

Yes, the lockdown did stem the flow. No, it has not done it's job. Not yet.

Look:



This is why you are now hearing the word "plateau" being bandied about. Now, if we start to open up, what do you think will happen to this plateau? Well, you may get your wish. Open up or not, this is where complacency starts to kick in.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Of course much more testing is required. But the argument you seem to be making is that with not enough testing, we don't have good enough figures to justify the lockdown is hilariously wrong.

That's not my argument though. My argument is and always has been that the lock down has done its job, i.e. stemmed the flow so that the hospitals are not overwhelmed and it is time to ease up on the lockdown, not lift it entirely. The lockdown was justified initially but I don't see enough evidence to let it continue.

Yes, the lockdown did stem the flow.

Correct, the shutdown stemmed the growth of the rate, not the flow itself.

Of course, TSwizzle's argument meanders about. Next it'll talk about how old people were going to die soon anyway or how Covid-19 isn't the killer or how the numbers are being exaggerated or 'that's a strawman'. .And around it will go.

 

[marc]

And now, the supposedly 'pro-life' anti-shutdown protesters are attacking nurses who try to counter protest

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

And now, the supposedly 'pro-life' anti-shutdown protesters are attacking nurses who try to counter protest

These MAGA-hat wearing fucks are the people in the past that supported the ugliest movements that have left stains on our legacy of a species.

President Trump has successfully turned an epidemic into a partisan issue.

 

[TSwizzle]

Yes, the lockdown did stem the flow. No, it has not done it's job. Not yet.

The job of the lockdown was to stop the health service from being overwhelmed due to a lack of preparedness and equipment. For most parts of the country and certainly here in CA, that has been achieved, i.e. job done. The added measures such as social distance, general hygiene, testing and self quarantine when showing symptoms will help reduce the spread.

 

[James Brown]

March 15, 2020. Seen on Facebook, posted by John W. McDaniel in Ohio:

"If what I'm hearing is true, that [Governor] DeWine has ordered all bars and restaurants to be closed, I say bulls***!"

"He doesn't have that authority. If you are paranoid about getting sick just don't go out. It shouldn't keep those of us from living our lives.

The madness has to stop.

Posted April 22, 2020, by Snyder Funeral Homes in Ohio:

"On behalf of [McDaniel's] family, they would like to extend a heartfelt “Thank you” to the nurses at Marion General Hospital and to all the staff at Riverside Methodist Hospital for everything they did to try and save Johnny’s life from Covid-19."

"They would also like to remind everyone to continue practising social distancing to keep each other safe."

Certainty can kill you.