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Questions For Women

Emily Lake

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I have a question for women.

How do you tolerate men at all? I'm a man and I can barely tolerate men.

I love my spouse, and the male friends and family in my life. Most individual men are just fine. It's really only as an aggregate that "men" can become tedious. :)
 

James Brown

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"Although we adore them indi-vid-ual-ly,
On the whole we think they're ra-ther stu-pid."

From 'Mary Poppins'
 

Rhea

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@Rhea? Um... Did you happen to notice that another rascally turkey found its way into another post? I think something's going on...


LOL, I was assuming that was an autocorrect on “entirely”

Toni's post, right up there... :whisper:


ETA: How do you do the @ mention thing?!


You type
@
And then their user name
WAB
And then a semicolon
;
So it looks like this
[MENTION=556]WAB[/MENTION];
And the software recognizes from the leading @ and the trailing ; that a user’s name is inbetween. We made that the code so it could handle spaces and not be confused by pasted tweets.
 

WAB

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@Rhea? Um... Did you happen to notice that another rascally turkey found its way into another post? I think something's going on...


LOL, I was assuming that was an autocorrect on “entirely”

Toni's post, right up there... :whisper:


ETA: How do you do the @ mention thing?!


You type
@
And then their user name
WAB
And then a semicolon
;
So it looks like this
[MENTION=556]WAB[/MENTION];
And the software recognizes from the leading @ and the trailing ; that a user’s name is inbetween. We made that the code so it could handle spaces and not be confused by pasted tweets.

Okay, thanks!
 

Emily Lake

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@Rhea? Um... Did you happen to notice that another rascally turkey found its way into another post? I think something's going on...


LOL, I was assuming that was an autocorrect on “entirely”

Toni's post, right up there... :whisper:


ETA: How do you do the @ mention thing?!


You type
@
And then their user name
WAB
And then a semicolon
;
So it looks like this
[MENTION=556]WAB[/MENTION];
And the software recognizes from the leading @ and the trailing ; that a user’s name is inbetween. We made that the code so it could handle spaces and not be confused by pasted tweets.

Please continue to educate. What does that accomplish? What's the purpose of that mention?
 

DrZoidberg

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I was not aware of that I did. Perhaps you could explain how you think I did that?

Coming from decades of being in open relationships sluty women being shamed and virginity being upheld as a virtue isn't something that comes from men. Women do that to each other. Women have capacity of much more sex than men do. The moment men stop being selfish and jealous and "share" their women, there's more sex for everybody.

When entering into the open/poly world men and women react along different lines.

The men who are jealous and have problems with it have very serious issues. They have something seriously wrong in the head. It's nearly always something weird and random. Some deep seated insecurity. If it was natural, then we'd expect to see some clear pattern. But it's all nuts. A quite common hang up is feelings of inadequecy. Which is cute. But doesn't explain why they would have a problem with his woman sleeping with another man. He's not going to become more adequate if they're monogamous. It's supremely irrational, ie just nuts. But, like I said, men's problems with open relationships are most often just bizarre.

Women are the ones who call each other sluts and shame other women for sleeping around. If they have a problem with open relationships it's usually because they're genuinely emotionally monogamous. They need to be in love with the men they sleep with and only have capacity to love one man at a time. I say usually. Because a lot of women of course are into open relationships. More women than men. And are cool with it. Men typically struggle more in open relationships than women.

My take away from my experiences with this world is that shaming women for their sexuality is what women do to each other (perhaps something innate) and something men have to be taught to do.

Men love slutty women. It makes no sense that a confident man in touch with his sexuality (and who isn't crazy) would have any problem with women sleeping around with whoever. A lot of men think they will. But once in the open relationship world and get over the initial shock, they're like fish in water.

Just my two cents.

the red sections are the ones that strike me as ascribing "ownership". The blue ones are the ones where you're extending the thing that works for you personally to pretty much the whole species.

You have referred to your spouse as "my" spouse repeatedly. I guess it's fine when women do it? Post 151 for example.

It is also rediculous. In context it's not hard to work out that what is meant is partnerships. In that sentence I need to show that the woman is having sex with somebody else than their partner somehow. Without adding words that needlessly confuse. It looks to me like you are reading the text maliciously, having decided in advance that you are going to be offended and grasping at any straws to be able to do so. Not caring about the context or keeping a discussion going. It's just a power tactic, to derail a conversion you are worried won't go in the direction you want it to go.



Additionally, I think your experience, wherein it is women who call other women slutty and shame them... is not representative of the standard experience.

It's not just my experience. There's a whole universe of literature on this topic. Most American. So I'm pretty sure it's the same over there. In addition, we talk to each other. I'm in a men's group where we're all in open relationships and we discuss problems. It's the same problems that surface again and again. Our partners are in women's groups. They also talk to each other. We talk to our partners. There's a lot of talking going on.

I see what you are doing. You are trying to reduce what I'm saying to only be about my experiences, so that you can try to palm this off as me being unique and special. But it is interesting sociologically. Because this kind of relationships barely existed before the 1960'ies. Now it's spread all over the western world, and keeps growing. It's a new thing. And I think we have a lot to learn from this world because it's a new thing.

It is a large natural experiment. What happens when adults get to have sex with anybody they want to, and they don't need to take any consideration of any social constraints other than asking for consent. I suspect that everybody thinks that is interesting.

And even if it is a marginal activity. We can learn things from the people in the lifestyle. While these women aren't representative for women in general (since most women aren't in open relationships). They are representative of who are in open relationships. There's things we can learn from male/female dynamics in open relationships regardless of their number.
 

DrZoidberg

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Men love slutty women??

I'd say only slutty men love slutty women.

What men aren't? What men aren't always trying to be a slut? If a man isn't a slut isn't it always only about a lack of ability to sleep around? I have never heard of anybody talking about it being a virtue for a man not sleeping around in any circumstance or context. The only comments are about men sleeping with women that other men are interested in, and that's the problem.

I feel like you've got a pretty narrow and confining view of both men and women. I find it pretty offensive, and I'm also offended on behalf of my spouse, my married friends, my parents, and the majority of people in loving long-term monogamous relationships.

I get that the open relationship thing works for you, but I think you err in trying to frame that as normal and desirable for everyone.

Men in monogamous relationships also watch porn. If they didn't want to have sex with other women, they wouldn't. Human beings are capable of parallel thoughts. We can want to have sex with others while also want other things and therefore refrain from doing so. We have the capacity to weigh wants against each other and select what we prioritize.

What exactly is offensive about acknowledging that? I'd say nothing is gained from trying to cling to a fairy tale fantasy image of relationships that is supported by zero data. Pornhub is doing extremely well. It's not just used by singles and people in open relationships.
 

DrZoidberg

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Your post #131.

You'll need to be more specific than that.

I suggest, if you feel that I've said something you find objectionable, make sure I've said what you think I said, before making a post. Emily Lake even managed to read into that same post that I'm claiming that people who give each other total freedom is somehow claiming ownership of each other. That's an impressive feat of malicious misreading.

It's like you and her have decided in advance what you think I'm likely to write, so you skip reading and jump straight to outrage. It doesn't lead to much of a meaningful conversation.

Where did I write that I found what you wrote to be objectionable? Weird, yes. I wrote that. Objectionable? I didn’t write or imply that!

As for generalizing your personal preferences to the general population, please see the last paragraph of your post #131.

So you just made it up. To what end? What are you hoping to achieve with dishonest discussion of this kind? Do you think I wouldn't remember what I wrote. I'm capable of going back to read my own posts. They're in writing.
 

Toni

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Where did I write that I found what you wrote to be objectionable? Weird, yes. I wrote that. Objectionable? I didn’t write or imply that!

As for generalizing your personal preferences to the general population, please see the last paragraph of your post #131.

So you just made it up. To what end? What are you hoping to achieve with dishonest discussion of this kind? Do you think I wouldn't remember what I wrote. I'm capable of going back to read my own posts. They're in writing.

???????????

I pointed you to your specific post. When that was insufficient, I pointed you to a specific paragraph.
 

southernhybrid

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I feel like you've got a pretty narrow and confining view of both men and women. I find it pretty offensive, and I'm also offended on behalf of my spouse, my married friends, my parents, and the majority of people in loving long-term monogamous relationships.

I get that the open relationship thing works for you, but I think you err in trying to frame that as normal and desirable for everyone.

Men in monogamous relationships also watch porn. If they didn't want to have sex with other women, they wouldn't. Human beings are capable of parallel thoughts. We can want to have sex with others while also want other things and therefore refrain from doing so. We have the capacity to weigh wants against each other and select what we prioritize.

What exactly is offensive about acknowledging that? I'd say nothing is gained from trying to cling to a fairy tale fantasy image of relationships that is supported by zero data. Pornhub is doing extremely well. It's not just used by singles and people in open relationships.

Wow! You really don't get it. People often watch porn for fantasy, not necessarily because they want to have sex with lots of people. My husband and I used to watch porn together when we were young. It was just an extra bit of foreplay. Sometimes it was a turn off, so we'd stop the video and get real.

I had a supervisor who loved to watch porn with her husband, and that was back in the 80s. In fact, she and I would go to lunch together Fridays, and then rent some porn VHS videos. Then on Saturday, we'd meet and exchange each other's videos to watch that night with our husbands. My supervisor was a rather plain looking woman in her late 40s, but she had a very exciting sex life with her husband. Yes. Women do talk about such things.

For us, porn became boring after several years of watching it, but I still have a few old VHS porn movies on the shelf collecting dust. Maybe I should see if they are worth some money. I recently read that old VHS tapes are now valuable. :D I probably shouldn't be revealing so much personal information, but I've never felt shy about discussing sex with other people. I even discussed it with my former patients when they brought the topic up. There were sometimes affairs among the octogenarians going on in the facility where I worked, but I digress.

Nancy Friday wrote two books about female sexual fantasies. ( "My Secret Garden" and "Forbidden Flowers" ) She interviewed numerous women who were willing to openly discuss their sexual fantasies. None of them wanted to carry out these fantasies in real life. Some enjoyed masturbating to their fantasies. For women, that can be very satisfying sex. Pleasuring oneself is the safest, most care free type of sex available. It's certainly safer and less complicated than having casual sex, or sex with a group of people, even if that's your thing. Life is full of fantasy and myths, and most of them aren't sexual.

Have you never had a fantasy that you never really would want to do in real life, regardless if it involved sex or something else? If not, you must not have a very vivid imagination, or maybe you're simply wired differently from the majority.

Just because you like having an open relationship that permits you to fuck around freely, doesn't mean that the rest of us find that desirable. We don't care that you like having multiple sex partners, but when you project your life style on the rest of us it comes across as arrogant. When you claim that we are living a fairy tale, that comes across as obnoxious. You don't know what's in our minds. You have no idea what we desire or what makes us happy. You are simply projecting your own feelings on the rest of us. We, on the other hand, are not doing that to you.
 

DrZoidberg

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Where did I write that I found what you wrote to be objectionable? Weird, yes. I wrote that. Objectionable? I didn’t write or imply that!

As for generalizing your personal preferences to the general population, please see the last paragraph of your post #131.

So you just made it up. To what end? What are you hoping to achieve with dishonest discussion of this kind? Do you think I wouldn't remember what I wrote. I'm capable of going back to read my own posts. They're in writing.

???????????

I pointed you to your specific post. When that was insufficient, I pointed you to a specific paragraph.

The paragraph doesn't contain what you claim it contains. I can't help you with reading comprehension. Take all the time you need to read it again-
 

DrZoidberg

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I feel like you've got a pretty narrow and confining view of both men and women. I find it pretty offensive, and I'm also offended on behalf of my spouse, my married friends, my parents, and the majority of people in loving long-term monogamous relationships.

I get that the open relationship thing works for you, but I think you err in trying to frame that as normal and desirable for everyone.

Men in monogamous relationships also watch porn. If they didn't want to have sex with other women, they wouldn't. Human beings are capable of parallel thoughts. We can want to have sex with others while also want other things and therefore refrain from doing so. We have the capacity to weigh wants against each other and select what we prioritize.

What exactly is offensive about acknowledging that? I'd say nothing is gained from trying to cling to a fairy tale fantasy image of relationships that is supported by zero data. Pornhub is doing extremely well. It's not just used by singles and people in open relationships.

Wow! You really don't get it. People often watch porn for fantasy, not necessarily because they want to have sex with lots of people. My husband and I used to watch porn together when we were young. It was just an extra bit of foreplay. Sometimes it was a turn off, so we'd stop the video and get real.

I had a supervisor who loved to watch porn with her husband, and that was back in the 80s. In fact, she and I would go to lunch together Fridays, and then rent some porn VHS videos. Then on Saturday, we'd meet and exchange each other's videos to watch that night with our husbands. My supervisor was a rather plain looking woman in her late 40s, but she had a very exciting sex life with her husband. Yes. Women do talk about such things.

For us, porn became boring after several years of watching it, but I still have a few old VHS porn movies on the shelf collecting dust. Maybe I should see if they are worth some money. I recently read that old VHS tapes are now valuable. :D I probably shouldn't be revealing so much personal information, but I've never felt shy about discussing sex with other people. I even discussed it with my former patients when they brought the topic up. There were sometimes affairs among the octogenarians going on in the facility where I worked, but I digress.

Nancy Friday wrote two books about female sexual fantasies. ( "My Secret Garden" and "Forbidden Flowers" ) She interviewed numerous women who were willing to openly discuss their sexual fantasies. None of them wanted to carry out these fantasies in real life. Some enjoyed masturbating to their fantasies. For women, that can be very satisfying sex. Pleasuring oneself is the safest, most care free type of sex available. It's certainly safer and less complicated than having casual sex, or sex with a group of people, even if that's your thing. Life is full of fantasy and myths, and most of them aren't sexual.

Have you never had a fantasy that you never really would want to do in real life, regardless if it involved sex or something else? If not, you must not have a very vivid imagination, or maybe you're simply wired differently from the majority.

Just because you like having an open relationship that permits you to fuck around freely, doesn't mean that the rest of us find that desirable. We don't care that you like having multiple sex partners, but when you project your life style on the rest of us it comes across as arrogant. When you claim that we are living a fairy tale, that comes across as obnoxious. You don't know what's in our minds. You have no idea what we desire or what makes us happy. You are simply projecting your own feelings on the rest of us. We, on the other hand, are not doing that to you.

Having an open relationship doesn't allow myself to fuck around freely. It only gives slightly more freedom. There's still the two massive constraints of time and consent.

I never projected this lifestyle on the rest of you. I told you that within this lifestyle distinctive female and male patterns arise. It is interesting from a social experiment point of view. I'd say that thinking that you have nothing to learn from people who live a different lifestyle than you is to be arrogant. Contrasting those who live in an open relationship with a monogamous relationship, I think helps us learn things about both lifestyles.

I'm not evangelizing open relationships. I have plenty of friends it doesn't work for. I had a friend who nagged his girlfriend into an open relationship. When she finally conceded after two years of persuasion, she immediately fell in love with her first lover and now they're a happy monogamous couple awaiting their first child. Clearly open relationship wasn't for her, which she did tell him and he should have listened. It's not for everyone. Loads of people seem to be genuinely monogamous. Most people seem to be somewhere in between.

My only point for bringing it up is that when humans have the freedom of multiple partners certain patterns emerge, and those are interesting. No matter if most people aren't into open relationships.

I think it is interesting that in this world it is primarily women slut shaming each other. Which makes me wonder if this is also the psychological mechanic in the monogamous world. And men who slut shame women do so out of loyalty to their female partners. If this is true that puts a different spin on patriarchal social and sexual control of women. Regardless if you agree or not it is an interesting perspective.

I personally find the idea that everything bad about patriarchal oppression is solely the fault of men, hard to accept. Firstly, it's insulting to women. They're not stupid and thinking that they haven't been able to influence anything throughout the ages is preposterous. No matter of who wears the pants in the family.

And lastly. Ask any man if they'd like a harem of women at their disposal if they could. I'm willing to bet that any straight man would say yes. And to preemt this slam dunk of humorous retord. If any straight man in this thread does deny this, I'd say they're lying.

Yes, there's plenty of fantasies I have that are impractical to make into reality (like having a harem of women). But they are there. I can't deny it. And neither do you. What sets us apart from this is that you don't take that thought/feeling/urge to it's logical conclusion. That fantasy isn't just some spice. It's the result of your instincts pushing you towards having more varied sex than you do currently. You've just taken your decision not to act on it, as evidence that there's nothing within you that really would want to have sex with others. Humans are complex beings. We're capable of having parallel thoughts and wants. Even thoughts and wants that are in conflict with one another. It's completely standard. I'd argue that what sets us apart on this is that you think the cost of philandering is higher than it's benefits. And I've reached the opposite conclusion. And that's fine. Of course. It makes neither of us more enlightened or superior to the other. We're not radically different species.

I read both of those books. They're great.
 
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Toni

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???????????

I pointed you to your specific post. When that was insufficient, I pointed you to a specific paragraph.

The paragraph doesn't contain what you claim it contains. I can't help you with reading comprehension. Take all the time you need to read it again-

You in post 131:

Men love slutty women. It makes no sense that a confident man in touch with his sexuality (and who isn't crazy) would have any problem with women sleeping around with whoever. A lot of men think they will. But once in the open relationship world and get over the initial shock, they're like fish in water.

You are clearly extrapolating from your own preferences/experiences and applying it to all men.

You do it in this post as well:

[big snip]


And lastly. Ask any man if they'd like a harem of women at their disposal if they could. I'm willing to bet that any straight man would say yes. And to preemt this slam dunk of humorous retord. If any straight man in this thread does deny this, I'd say they're lying.

I've actually known someone who had had at one point, a small harem. He didn't like it. He found it an impossible situation because he felt that each woman deserved to be loved equally and he simply could not. So he...downsized to a single wife with whom he was supremely happy.

I think we all get that for you, the perfect world is one in which everyone is 'free' to have sex with whatever willing partner they can find. Actually, people ARE free to do that, even in monogamous relationships. But no one is 'free' to have sex without consequence anymore than they are 'free' to eat a chocolate bar without consequence. There is always the potential if one is discussing hetero couples, that a pregnancy could occur, unless the woman is past menopause or has had a hysterectomy. There is always the potential for an STI, no matter how careful you are. AND there is always the potential of developing complicated feelings that change the nature of existing relationship(s). People who are certain that they could not feel jealousy or rejection or pain upon learning that a partner was fooling around with someone else....sometimes find out that they were wrong.

No one here is trying to dissuade you from engaging in whatever (consensual) relationships you choose, if it makes you happy. We aren't telling you that you are bad, wrong, immoral, messed up, or anything else. We are not claiming that YOU are in denial. But YOU seem to be claiming that WE are in denial.

We're just asserting our certainty that your preferences are not universal and this is independent of whether someone is or is not somehow messed up. You think people in monogamous relationships are missing out. I think you're missing out. But perhaps the real truth is that we're not missing out on anything we value by being in monogamous relationships just as you are not missing out on anything you value by being in an open relationship.
 

Toni

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???????????

I pointed you to your specific post. When that was insufficient, I pointed you to a specific paragraph.

The paragraph doesn't contain what you claim it contains. I can't help you with reading comprehension. Take all the time you need to read it again-

You in post 131:

Men love slutty women. It makes no sense that a confident man in touch with his sexuality (and who isn't crazy) would have any problem with women sleeping around with whoever. A lot of men think they will. But once in the open relationship world and get over the initial shock, they're like fish in water.

You are clearly extrapolating from your own preferences/experiences and applying it to all men.

You do it in this post as well:

[big snip]


And lastly. Ask any man if they'd like a harem of women at their disposal if they could. I'm willing to bet that any straight man would say yes. And to preemt this slam dunk of humorous retord. If any straight man in this thread does deny this, I'd say they're lying.

I've actually known someone who had had at one point, a small harem. He didn't like it. He found it an impossible situation because he felt that each woman deserved to be loved equally and he simply could not. So he...downsized to a single wife with whom he was supremely happy.

I think we all get that for you, the perfect world is one in which everyone is 'free' to have sex with whatever willing partner they can find. Actually, people ARE free to do that, even in monogamous relationships. But no one is 'free' to have sex without consequence anymore than they are 'free' to eat a chocolate bar without consequence. There is always the potential if one is discussing hetero couples, that a pregnancy could occur, unless the woman is past menopause or has had a hysterectomy. There is always the potential for an STI, no matter how careful you are. AND there is always the potential of developing complicated feelings that change the nature of existing relationship(s). People who are certain that they could not feel jealousy or rejection or pain upon learning that a partner was fooling around with someone else....sometimes find out that they were wrong.

No one here is trying to dissuade you from engaging in whatever (consensual) relationships you choose, if it makes you happy. We aren't telling you that you are bad, wrong, immoral, messed up, or anything else. We are not claiming that YOU are in denial. But YOU seem to be claiming that WE are in denial.

We're just asserting our certainty that your preferences are not universal and this is independent of whether someone is or is not somehow messed up. You think people in monogamous relationships are missing out. I think you're missing out. But perhaps the real truth is that we're not missing out on anything we value by being in monogamous relationships just as you are not missing out on anything you value by being in an open relationship.
 

DrZoidberg

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You in post 131:

I really didn't. That's what you interpreted. But it's not what I said. And when I clarified you rejected my clarification.

Men love slutty women. It makes no sense that a confident man in touch with his sexuality (and who isn't crazy) would have any problem with women sleeping around with whoever. A lot of men think they will. But once in the open relationship world and get over the initial shock, they're like fish in water.

You are clearly extrapolating from your own preferences/experiences and applying it to all men.

I do find it interesting why you are so eager to dismiss what I am saying rather than engaging with it. You have put all the effort into dismissing it on a technicality. What are you so afraid of?

And lastly. Ask any man if they'd like a harem of women at their disposal if they could. I'm willing to bet that any straight man would say yes. And to preemt this slam dunk of humorous retord. If any straight man in this thread does deny this, I'd say they're lying.

I've actually known someone who had had at one point, a small harem. He didn't like it. He found it an impossible situation because he felt that each woman deserved to be loved equally and he simply could not. So he...downsized to a single wife with whom he was supremely happy.

You are missing the substance of my argument. Which is that all men have this fantasy. I have also dated several women simultaneously while being the only person all are in love with. Its better as a fantasy. Luckily these situations are temporary. All men understand that it's most likely more trouble than it's worth. But we still have the fantasy. And that means something.


I think we all get that for you, the perfect world is one in which everyone is 'free' to have sex with whatever willing partner they can find. Actually, people ARE free to do that, even in monogamous relationships. But no one is 'free' to have sex without consequence anymore than they are 'free' to eat a chocolate bar without consequence. There is always the potential if one is discussing hetero couples, that a pregnancy could occur, unless the woman is past menopause or has had a hysterectomy. There is always the potential for an STI, no matter how careful you are. AND there is always the potential of developing complicated feelings that change the nature of existing relationship(s). People who are certain that they could not feel jealousy or rejection or pain upon learning that a partner was fooling around with someone else....sometimes find out that they were wrong.

No one here is trying to dissuade you from engaging in whatever (consensual) relationships you choose, if it makes you happy. We aren't telling you that you are bad, wrong, immoral, messed up, or anything else. We are not claiming that YOU are in denial. But YOU seem to be claiming that WE are in denial.

We're just asserting our certainty that your preferences are not universal and this is independent of whether someone is or is not somehow messed up. You think people in monogamous relationships are missing out. I think you're missing out. But perhaps the real truth is that we're not missing out on anything we value by being in monogamous relationships just as you are not missing out on anything you value by being in an open relationship.

You missed my point completely. I'm not evangelising open relationships or claiming they are better. It's not for everyone.

My point of bringing it up is that when people are in that lifestyle distinct male/female behaviour patterns emerge. That was my only point.

I don't think people in open relationships are so special that there's nothing people in monogamous relationships can learn from our relationships.
 
Last edited:

Toni

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I really didn't. That's what you interpreted. But it's not what I said. And when I clarified you rejected my clarification.

Men love slutty women. It makes no sense that a confident man in touch with his sexuality (and who isn't crazy) would have any problem with women sleeping around with whoever. A lot of men think they will. But once in the open relationship world and get over the initial shock, they're like fish in water.

You are clearly extrapolating from your own preferences/experiences and applying it to all men.

I do find it interesting why you are so eager to dismiss what I am saying rather than engaging with it. You have put all the effort into dismissing it on a technicality. What are you so afraid of?

And lastly. Ask any man if they'd like a harem of women at their disposal if they could. I'm willing to bet that any straight man would say yes. And to preemt this slam dunk of humorous retord. If any straight man in this thread does deny this, I'd say they're lying.

I've actually known someone who had had at one point, a small harem. He didn't like it. He found it an impossible situation because he felt that each woman deserved to be loved equally and he simply could not. So he...downsized to a single wife with whom he was supremely happy.

You are missing the substance of my argument. Which is that all men have this fantasy. I have also dated several women simultaneously while being the only person all are in love with. Its better as a fantasy. Luckily these situations are temporary. All men understand that it's most likely more trouble than it's worth. But we still have the fantasy. And that means something.


I think we all get that for you, the perfect world is one in which everyone is 'free' to have sex with whatever willing partner they can find. Actually, people ARE free to do that, even in monogamous relationships. But no one is 'free' to have sex without consequence anymore than they are 'free' to eat a chocolate bar without consequence. There is always the potential if one is discussing hetero couples, that a pregnancy could occur, unless the woman is past menopause or has had a hysterectomy. There is always the potential for an STI, no matter how careful you are. AND there is always the potential of developing complicated feelings that change the nature of existing relationship(s). People who are certain that they could not feel jealousy or rejection or pain upon learning that a partner was fooling around with someone else....sometimes find out that they were wrong.

No one here is trying to dissuade you from engaging in whatever (consensual) relationships you choose, if it makes you happy. We aren't telling you that you are bad, wrong, immoral, messed up, or anything else. We are not claiming that YOU are in denial. But YOU seem to be claiming that WE are in denial.

We're just asserting our certainty that your preferences are not universal and this is independent of whether someone is or is not somehow messed up. You think people in monogamous relationships are missing out. I think you're missing out. But perhaps the real truth is that we're not missing out on anything we value by being in monogamous relationships just as you are not missing out on anything you value by being in an open relationship.

You missed my point completely. I'm not evangelising open relationships or claiming they are better. It's not for everyone.

My point of bringing it up is that when people are in that lifestyle distinct male/female behaviour patterns emerge. That was my only point.

I don't think people in open relationships are so special that there's nothing people in monogamous relationships can learn from our relationships.

I guess I’m just thrown off by your repeated assertions that *all* (straight) men have the fantasy of having a harem, multiple partners, etc.
 

Shadowy Man

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I guess I’m just thrown off by your repeated assertions that *all* (straight) men have the fantasy of having a harem, multiple partners, etc.

Actually, I don’t think he qualified it as you did.
 

DrZoidberg

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I guess I’m just thrown off by your repeated assertions that *all* (straight) men have the fantasy of having a harem, multiple partners, etc.

You can either quibble about semantics or engage with the question. I'm sure there exists men out there who don't have the fantasy. But it's an extremely common fantasy.

Why is this thought so scary for you that you aren't willing to even discuss it? What are you afraid of?
 

Toni

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I guess I’m just thrown off by your repeated assertions that *all* (straight) men have the fantasy of having a harem, multiple partners, etc.

You can either quibble about semantics or engage with the question. I'm sure there exists men out there who don't have the fantasy. But it's an extremely common fantasy.

Why is this thought so scary for you that you aren't willing to even discuss it? What are you afraid of?

I thought I was?

You make a statement.

I question it.

You deny statement.

I point out where you made that statement.

You claim 'this thought is so scary for me that I'm not even willing to discuss it.'

If you are not actually claiming that all men or all straight men share a particular fantasy, then I apologize if I misunderstood.

If there is some other disagreement, then I have lost track of it entirely. Which is fine. I'm not particularly interested in your fantasy life or your sex life.
 

Shadowy Man

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If you are not actually claiming that all men or all straight men share a particular fantasy, then I apologize if I misunderstood.

If there is some other disagreement, then I have lost track of it entirely. Which is fine. I'm not particularly interested in your fantasy life or your sex life.

He has backed off from all to extremely common. Since the first claim didn’t float he’ll try another.
 

Toni

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If you are not actually claiming that all men or all straight men share a particular fantasy, then I apologize if I misunderstood.

If there is some other disagreement, then I have lost track of it entirely. Which is fine. I'm not particularly interested in your fantasy life or your sex life.

He has backed off from all to extremely common. Since the first claim didn’t float he’ll try another.

Yep.
 

WAB

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I'm going to try to defend Dr. Z for a bit here, as I think he's essentially right about a few things, while I still don't agree with him about other things.

While I am most certainly NOT a promiscuous man, I readily admit to having the harem fantasy, and I would imagine that the vast majority of heterosexual men have it also. I would think it quite natural, in fact, biologically speaking.

However, with a man like me - a repressed hyper-neurotic anxiety-ridden, knee-shakingly silly and sexually embarrassed beta male, who has only slept with all of 2 women, who lost his virginity at 26, and has only had sex because those 2 women pursued him instead of the other way around - that fantasy is strictly in the realm of fantasy, and would and could not be acted out.

I have enough trouble with ONE woman. Give me access to twenty of them all at once, and my brain would explode, or I'd have a stroke, or a fatal heart attack. Fantasy is one thing, reality is another. Also, I know myself pretty well, after nearly six decades of consciousness. Even if say, eight or...um... seventeen :joy: of my female acquaintances (ladies I've worked with, old friends, online friends, whatever - I am friendly with very many women), got together and decided to throw me a CFNM party for my birthday, I would not show up, because there is simply no possible way I could be a participant in such a thing. I am nervous in large groups, and I detest being the centre of attention. I had to give a toast as best man at TWO big weddings, and holy shit was that rough, both times. Now, that's in mixed company, and I got to keep my tux on, both times, thank God!

But seriously, Dr. Z and I are very different people. When I said that only slutty men love slutty women, I meant men that *behave* promiscuously, not the rest of us who are slutty only in the realm of erotic fantasy. In fact, I would, and DO, admire monogamous women more than promiscuous women; I am far more attracted to a less sexually aggressive woman than a more sexually aggressive woman. I simply and plainly am more attracted to women who are on the reserved and highly choosy side than ones who will go to clubs with the express objective of hooking up.

In summing up, I would find a pretty nun far more desirable than a gorgeous woman dressed to the nines with high heels all loud and ready to rumble.

So, I do think Dr. Z is right in that the harem fantasy is, probably, virtually universal among heterosexual men; but he might be wrong IF he is also arguing that virtually all of those men would actually take that fantasy into reality.
 

DrZoidberg

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You claim 'this thought is so scary for me that I'm not even willing to discuss it.'

Isn't it?

If you are not actually claiming that all men or all straight men share a particular fantasy, then I apologize if I misunderstood.

Nobody can speak about the content of other people's minds. We need to use proxies. You know this. And so do I. When we're talking about fantasies we can talk about erotica and literature. We can also use topics of conversation or just dreams. This is a near universal fantasy for men. Emily Lake even mentioned some excellent erotic books about women's fantasies. So it's not like I'm alone in thinking there's something we can learn from this.

You pretended that I was that damn stupid that I didn't understand this in order to derail the conversation. Why?

If there is some other disagreement, then I have lost track of it entirely. Which is fine. I'm not particularly interested in your fantasy life or your sex life.

We're discussing universals or near universals. At no point have I been talking about the particulars of my sex life only. I only brought them up to shine light on universals. You only tried to twist this discussion into being about my particulars so that you could dismiss my arguments without having to meet them. That's a dishonest way of discussing. Which makes me wonder why you are so afraid of honesty about sex and sexual fantasies? What are you afraid you might learn ?
 

DrZoidberg

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But seriously, Dr. Z and I are very different people. When I said that only slutty men love slutty women, I meant men that *behave* promiscuously, not the rest of us who are slutty only in the realm of erotic fantasy. In fact, I would, and DO, admire monogamous women more than promiscuous women; I am far more attracted to a less sexually aggressive woman than a more sexually aggressive woman. I simply and plainly am more attracted to women who are on the reserved and highly choosy side than ones who will go to clubs with the express objective of hooking up.

I think you are taking things for granted. I prefer highly choosy women. I'm also quite choosy. I have sex with a fraction of, all the women who have expressed an interest in meeting. I don't like one night stands. If I'm going to have sex with a woman I want a deep connection in longer term relationships. One good reason is because I don't want AIDS. A woman being easy, who sleeps with whoever, comes with a bunch of other behaviours not conducive to a good relationship. It's a sign of weak boundaries. Which means that she's likely to consent to things she'd rather not do. Ie she consents to sex for unhealthy reasons. Which tends to just end in a massive mess and drama with nobody happy. And these women are bad at remembering to use condoms. As well as them befriending awful men, who in this community means them pulling in men I'd rather not hang out with in my close circle of friends.

A woman (and a man) can be choosy, as well as sleeping with many partners. These are not mutually exclusive. I've had long periods when I've voluntarily slept with nobody. You can't get choosier than that.

In summing up, I would find a pretty nun far more desirable than a gorgeous woman dressed to the nines with high heels all loud and ready to rumble.

This certainly does set us apart.

So, I do think Dr. Z is right in that the harem fantasy is, probably, virtually universal among heterosexual men; but he might be wrong IF he is also arguing that virtually all of those men would actually take that fantasy into reality.

I'm not doing that. I'm only arguing that it's a near universal fantasy of all men. And I'm also arguing that we can learn something from sexual fantasies of men and women. I think it means something.

You do also high light something about this. Our Christian heritage of shaming "sluts". We are extremely uncomfortable about sexual promiscuity. I doubt it's only Christian. Ex-Viking cultures are uncharacteristically cool with female sexual initiative and sexual aggression. In Sweden it's so extreme that both the man and the woman needs to make a move for sex to happen. When I started travelling the world and tried getting laid around the world it took me a while to figure out that women from other cultures really did want to have sex with me, they just expected me to take all the initiative. That's pretty much taboo in Sweden. It's seen as quite rapey and frowned upon. But all ex-Viking cultures have this clear streak of pro-female sexual aggression thing. It does not conform to country boundaries. It just correlates with which were old Viking settlements. For whatever reason. But it does make open relationships much simpler here. Less friction. And less judgement. So discussions about it are less about the ikkyness and more about the actual thing
 

Toni

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Isn't it?



Nobody can speak about the content of other people's minds. We need to use proxies. You know this. And so do I. When we're talking about fantasies we can talk about erotica and literature. We can also use topics of conversation or just dreams. This is a near universal fantasy for men. Emily Lake even mentioned some excellent erotic books about women's fantasies. So it's not like I'm alone in thinking there's something we can learn from this.

You pretended that I was that damn stupid that I didn't understand this in order to derail the conversation. Why?

If there is some other disagreement, then I have lost track of it entirely. Which is fine. I'm not particularly interested in your fantasy life or your sex life.

We're discussing universals or near universals. At no point have I been talking about the particulars of my sex life only. I only brought them up to shine light on universals. You only tried to twist this discussion into being about my particulars so that you could dismiss my arguments without having to meet them. That's a dishonest way of discussing. Which makes me wonder why you are so afraid of honesty about sex and sexual fantasies? What are you afraid you might learn ?

No, I've only addressed your assertions that your experiences and fantasies are 'universal or near universal.' And that you know what women want.

You are the one who has brought your own sex life into this discussion. Your choice. Your right. But it's not something that sparks any interest in me to discuss, even in the abstract.

I believe this started with assertions about what women want. It has now evolved into what you want, which seems to be to talk about your sex life.

You're free to do so, of course. And I'm free not to participate.
 

DrZoidberg

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Isn't it?



Nobody can speak about the content of other people's minds. We need to use proxies. You know this. And so do I. When we're talking about fantasies we can talk about erotica and literature. We can also use topics of conversation or just dreams. This is a near universal fantasy for men. Emily Lake even mentioned some excellent erotic books about women's fantasies. So it's not like I'm alone in thinking there's something we can learn from this.

You pretended that I was that damn stupid that I didn't understand this in order to derail the conversation. Why?

If there is some other disagreement, then I have lost track of it entirely. Which is fine. I'm not particularly interested in your fantasy life or your sex life.

We're discussing universals or near universals. At no point have I been talking about the particulars of my sex life only. I only brought them up to shine light on universals. You only tried to twist this discussion into being about my particulars so that you could dismiss my arguments without having to meet them. That's a dishonest way of discussing. Which makes me wonder why you are so afraid of honesty about sex and sexual fantasies? What are you afraid you might learn ?

No, I've only addressed your assertions that your experiences and fantasies are 'universal or near universal.' And that you know what women want.

You are the one who has brought your own sex life into this discussion. Your choice. Your right. But it's not something that sparks any interest in me to discuss, even in the abstract.

I believe this started with assertions about what women want. It has now evolved into what you want, which seems to be to talk about your sex life.

You're free to do so, of course. And I'm free not to participate.

All I see is more dishonest excuses to derail the discussion rather than any genuine attempt to have a discussion about this.

Its a shame. I think it's an interesting discussion. I guess this isn't the place to talk about the roots of sex and sexuality.
 

Toni

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No, I've only addressed your assertions that your experiences and fantasies are 'universal or near universal.' And that you know what women want.

You are the one who has brought your own sex life into this discussion. Your choice. Your right. But it's not something that sparks any interest in me to discuss, even in the abstract.

I believe this started with assertions about what women want. It has now evolved into what you want, which seems to be to talk about your sex life.

You're free to do so, of course. And I'm free not to participate.

All I see is more dishonest excuses to derail the discussion rather than any genuine attempt to have a discussion about this.

Its a shame. I think it's an interesting discussion. I guess this isn't the place to talk about the roots of sex and sexuality.

I’ve been as explicit as I felt was polite and in keeping with the standards of this forum in stating my lack of interest in discussing your sex life.

In return you’ve told me that I was dishonest and afraid. I’m neither. I’m simply uninterested because I find the discussion of your sex life to be boring.
 

DrZoidberg

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No, I've only addressed your assertions that your experiences and fantasies are 'universal or near universal.' And that you know what women want.

You are the one who has brought your own sex life into this discussion. Your choice. Your right. But it's not something that sparks any interest in me to discuss, even in the abstract.

I believe this started with assertions about what women want. It has now evolved into what you want, which seems to be to talk about your sex life.

You're free to do so, of course. And I'm free not to participate.

All I see is more dishonest excuses to derail the discussion rather than any genuine attempt to have a discussion about this.

Its a shame. I think it's an interesting discussion. I guess this isn't the place to talk about the roots of sex and sexuality.

I’ve been as explicit as I felt was polite and in keeping with the standards of this forum in stating my lack of interest in discussing your sex life.

In return you’ve told me that I was dishonest and afraid. I’m neither. I’m simply uninterested because I find the discussion of your sex life to be boring.

Its never been about my sex life in particular. But you know that already. So cut the crap.
 

Toni

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I’ve been as explicit as I felt was polite and in keeping with the standards of this forum in stating my lack of interest in discussing your sex life.

In return you’ve told me that I was dishonest and afraid. I’m neither. I’m simply uninterested because I find the discussion of your sex life to be boring.

Its never been about my sex life in particular. But you know that already. So cut the crap.

Good idea! This is my last response to you on this subject.
 

Rhea

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Rhea said:
And the software recognizes from the leading @ and the trailing ; that a user’s name is inbetween. We made that the code so it could handle spaces and not be confused by pasted tweets.

Please continue to educate. What does that accomplish? What's the purpose of that mention?

The mention creats an alert at the top of the page like where the reputation alerts and Private Message alerts are - letting you know that someone mentioned you in a post. You can click the alert and go straight to the post [MENTION=765]Emily Lake[/MENTION];
 

Emily Lake

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Rhea said:
And the software recognizes from the leading @ and the trailing ; that a user’s name is inbetween. We made that the code so it could handle spaces and not be confused by pasted tweets.

Please continue to educate. What does that accomplish? What's the purpose of that mention?

The mention creats an alert at the top of the page like where the reputation alerts and Private Message alerts are - letting you know that someone mentioned you in a post. You can click the alert and go straight to the post [MENTION=765]Emily Lake[/MENTION];

Thank you! That was cool :)
 

Emily Lake

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I'm not sure we speak the same language... because I'm having a lot of trouble squaring this comment...
I prefer highly choosy women. I'm also quite choosy. I have sex with a fraction of, all the women who have expressed an interest in meeting. I don't like one night stands. If I'm going to have sex with a woman I want a deep connection in longer term relationships. One good reason is because I don't want AIDS. A woman being easy, who sleeps with whoever, comes with a bunch of other behaviours not conducive to a good relationship. It's a sign of weak boundaries. Which means that she's likely to consent to things she'd rather not do. Ie she consents to sex for unhealthy reasons. Which tends to just end in a massive mess and drama with nobody happy. And these women are bad at remembering to use condoms. As well as them befriending awful men, who in this community means them pulling in men I'd rather not hang out with in my close circle of friends.
... with this comment...
Men love slutty women. It makes no sense that a confident man in touch with his sexuality (and who isn't crazy) would have any problem with women sleeping around with whoever. A lot of men think they will. But once in the open relationship world and get over the initial shock, they're like fish in water.
 
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DrZoidberg

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I'm not sure we speak the same language... because I'm having a lot of trouble squaring this comment...
I prefer highly choosy women. I'm also quite choosy. I have sex with a fraction of, all the women who have expressed an interest in meeting. I don't like one night stands. If I'm going to have sex with a woman I want a deep connection in longer term relationships. One good reason is because I don't want AIDS. A woman being easy, who sleeps with whoever, comes with a bunch of other behaviours not conducive to a good relationship. It's a sign of weak boundaries. Which means that she's likely to consent to things she'd rather not do. Ie she consents to sex for unhealthy reasons. Which tends to just end in a massive mess and drama with nobody happy. And these women are bad at remembering to use condoms. As well as them befriending awful men, who in this community means them pulling in men I'd rather not hang out with in my close circle of friends.
... with this comment...
Men love slutty women. It makes no sense that a confident man in touch with his sexuality (and who isn't crazy) would have any problem with women sleeping around with whoever. A lot of men think they will. But once in the open relationship world and get over the initial shock, they're like fish in water.

There is no conflict between the statements. I suspect that it's your lack of understanding about people who live in open relationships that is the problem. I don't understand what it is you are projecting onto us. But it doesn't really matter. It doesn't really matter for the topic of this thread. I'm not interested in being the prophet of open relationships or evangelizing for it. That's not why I brought it up. You're free to believe whatever you want about people like us. I'm cool with it.

The reason I brought it up was because I think it is interesting to contrast the behaviour of people in open relationships with the behaviour of people in monogamous relationships. That was the ONLY reason I mentioned it. After that the focus shifted completely onto my sex life, in spite it being of no consequence to this thread, nor especially interesting IMHO, and in spite of my best efforts to try to coax it back to the original topic. I think the best tactic from now on is just to refuse to answer anything about my sex life in particular in this thread, in the hopes that we might go back to discussing what this thread is actually about.
 

Emily Lake

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1) Men love slutty women, women who sleep around with whoever are great
2) I like choosy women, women who sleep around with whoever have behaviors not conducive to good relationships and health

Can you explain to me how slutty and choosy are the same to you? Or how sleeping around with whoever is both a good thing and a bad thing in your eyes?
 

DrZoidberg

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1) Men love slutty women, women who sleep around with whoever are great
2) I like choosy women, women who sleep around with whoever have behaviors not conducive to good relationships and health

Can you explain to me how slutty and choosy are the same to you? Or how sleeping around with whoever is both a good thing and a bad thing in your eyes?

I think you need to expend minimal brainpower to figure this one out. It's a pretty simple logical puzzle with only a couple variables.

A good start would be to set your preconceptions aside.
 

Toni

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1) Men love slutty women, women who sleep around with whoever are great
2) I like choosy women, women who sleep around with whoever have behaviors not conducive to good relationships and health

Can you explain to me how slutty and choosy are the same to you? Or how sleeping around with whoever is both a good thing and a bad thing in your eyes?

I think you need to expend minimal brainpower to figure this one out. It's a pretty simple logical puzzle with only a couple variables.

A good start would be to set your preconceptions aside.

I think I've got it:

Men love slutty women but you prefer women who are choosy.
You do not prefer slutty women.
Ergo you are not a man.

That does upend my assumptions about you.
 

Emily Lake

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1) Men love slutty women, women who sleep around with whoever are great
2) I like choosy women, women who sleep around with whoever have behaviors not conducive to good relationships and health

Can you explain to me how slutty and choosy are the same to you? Or how sleeping around with whoever is both a good thing and a bad thing in your eyes?

I think you need to expend minimal brainpower to figure this one out. It's a pretty simple logical puzzle with only a couple variables.

A good start would be to set your preconceptions aside.

I think I've got it:

Men love slutty women but you prefer women who are choosy.
You do not prefer slutty women.
Ergo you are not a man.

That does upend my assumptions about you.

That was pretty much where I ended up at too.
 

DrZoidberg

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I think I've got it:

Men love slutty women but you prefer women who are choosy.
You do not prefer slutty women.
Ergo you are not a man.

That does upend my assumptions about you.

That was pretty much where I ended up at too.

Perhaps this will make it easier:

1) Women who are sexually satisfied are happier and more fun to be around.
2) Women have a much greater capacity for sex than men. So a woman who is your primary partner sleeping with another man isn't going to get in the way of your ability to have sex with her or connect with her emotionally. The reverse is not necessarily true.
3) Men in this lifestyle prefer women with healthy boundaries, who have figured out what they want from life and who don't consent to things they really don't want to do. I'd say it's a crucial skill to master for any woman in this lifestyle or it'll lead to endless drama, conflict and sometimes accusations of sexual assault.
4) A person having more than one partner doesn't mean they will sleep with just anybody.

I do find it strange how you didn't manage to figure it out on your own. All the information could be found in the two messages you were comparing. Were you unable to do it because you were trying hard to misunderstand? That's what it looks like to me.

But in case you where genuinely baffled; there's a classic on open relationships called "The Ethical Slut". It's an easy read. I highly recommend it. The focus in the book is lesbian open relationships, but for whatever reason, it's advice seems to be universally applicable to all humans, and is the most recommended and shared book on open relationships on the market. I'd say it's an awesome book on relationships for anybody, regardless if you are in an open relationship or not. The main selling point of open relationships is rejection. You will get a lot of practice in being rejected, which will give you a lot of information on why you were rejected. Nobody in an open relationship is going to settle for a lover because of a lack of options. Since people who have been in the scene for a long time have had a lot of opportunity to figure out in which situations they get rejected they get better at building healthy and strong emotional connections with those that don't reject them. They become very good and communicating. People who are shit at communicating in this world will spend a lot of time on their own. Hopefully, thinking on why they are alone. And because they will get so much practice on this, they will figure out why they keep getting rejected, can work on this, and won't be alone so much for long. Even people in monogamous relationships benefit from good communication.

The advice in The Ethical Slut for how to build emotional connection between people in any relationship is extremely good. Sexual or otherwise. Since you struggled so much to figure out the above logic puzzle I suspect you will find the book most enlightening.
 

steve_bank

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A big one for me.

Women arrange their hair so it hangs in front of their face, and then constantly flip it out of the way.

I am beginning to think this is some kind of genetic based mating ritual.
 

bigfield

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Women arrange their hair so it hangs in front of their face, and then constantly flip it out of the way.

CBS actually interviewed a girl about this a while back:

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjEqT5t7JvQ[/YOUTUBE]
 

Loren Pechtel

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A big one for me.

Women arrange their hair so it hangs in front of their face, and then constantly flip it out of the way.

I am beginning to think this is some kind of genetic based mating ritual.

Or worse, one of the front desk staff at the doctor's office, she consistently wore her hair partially covering one eye. She didn't flip it out of the way, just went about life like that. Unless she was actually blind in that eye how could she stand it? I can't stand to have hair that can even fall into my field of vision (say, if I'm bent over looking at the innards of a computer.)
 

Shadowy Man

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A big one for me.

Women arrange their hair so it hangs in front of their face, and then constantly flip it out of the way.

I am beginning to think this is some kind of genetic based mating ritual.

Or worse, one of the front desk staff at the doctor's office, she consistently wore her hair partially covering one eye. She didn't flip it out of the way, just went about life like that. Unless she was actually blind in that eye how could she stand it? I can't stand to have hair that can even fall into my field of vision (say, if I'm bent over looking at the innards of a computer.)

Suffering for fashion.
 

Rhea

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A big one for me.

Women arrange their hair so it hangs in front of their face, and then constantly flip it out of the way.

I am beginning to think this is some kind of genetic based mating ritual.


I can’t stand hair in my eyes. I will either cut my hair short enough to never reach my eyes, or use hairspray to make sure it never reaches my eyes.

But I don’t think this is a “women” thing. I see men do it as well. Many many of them. I don’t know how they stand it.
 

steve_bank

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The nurse(female) at mu doctor appointment today had a crew cut.
 

James Brown

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Here's a question for women that I hope doesn't devolve into a stand-off.

To my mind, a front-clasp bra would be easier for a woman to put on and off, but they seem to be the exception rather than the rule. Am I wrong about that, or is there some other reason that most bras are rear-clasp?

This has nothing to do about access for a significant other--just everyday wear.
 

southernhybrid

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Here's a question for women that I hope doesn't devolve into a stand-off.

To my mind, a front-clasp bra would be easier for a woman to put on and off, but they seem to be the exception rather than the rule. Am I wrong about that, or is there some other reason that most bras are rear-clasp?

This has nothing to do about access for a significant other--just everyday wear.

When a woman wears a bra that clasps in the back, it's really quite simple. She just clasps it in the front, then simply turns the bra around, and pulls the strap over her shoulders.

What I have always thought were repulsive, are those underwire bras, but I won't judge my female peers if that's what they prefer to wear. What works for one woman, doesn't work for all. We should all wear what we find to be the most comfortable, even if that means going braless.

Why do some men wear boxer shorts, while other wear bikini style underwear? There are many styles of underpants for both men and women. Who cares what one chooses to wear? I certainly don't.
 

Politesse

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Here's a question for women that I hope doesn't devolve into a stand-off.

To my mind, a front-clasp bra would be easier for a woman to put on and off, but they seem to be the exception rather than the rule. Am I wrong about that, or is there some other reason that most bras are rear-clasp?

This has nothing to do about access for a significant other--just everyday wear.

I don't identify as a woman, but that one always made sense to me, who wants a bulky clasp up front? I don't even like ties.
 
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