Rape culture: British Style

[EricK]

And it is also true that 1 out of 1 burglaries come about by the actions of burglars. But that doesn't make it wrong or 'victim blaming' to point out that 1 in 3* burglary victims went out of the house but left a window open.

Well, if all you're saying is that a paticular obviously unsecured building is more likely to be robbed than one that has been secured, all things being equal, you're not wrong.

If you try to suggest that if people were to do a better job of keeping their windows and doors locked there'd be fewer burglaries overall, though, you're probably wrong.

I'm not so sure.

There are probably two kinds of burglars - determined burglars and opportunistic burglars.
Determined burglars will break in somewhere - and locking doors and windows will just make it less likely that they burgle you, and more likely they burgle someone less security conscious.
Opportunistic burglars, on the other hand, probably wouldn't burgle anywhere if everywhere were locked up

After all, isn't what you are saying equivalent to saying that even if nobody locked their doors and windows there wouldn't be more burglaries. Because that seems implausible in the extreme.

 

[Toni]

Why are we overlooking the obvious solution? Just have women wear chastity belts again. Good luck raping a girl with one of those babies on.

It would make much more sense to put men in chastity belts. Good luck raping anybody wearing one of those things.

 

[ksen]

Whoa, male-centric thinking is so ingrained that I didn't even think about the male version!

 

[Bronzeage]

Whoa, male-centric thinking is so ingrained that I didn't even think about the male version!

If a man signs a disadvantageous contract while drunk and suffers losses, does he have ground to go to court and have the contract invalidated?

 

[RavenSky]

That was my point. Burglars will not be deterred by "1 out of 1 burglaries ..." poster but homeowners might be affected by a similar poster telling them what they can do to protect themselves. Athena, I think stuff flew over your head instead.

uh

This is tiring

My post isn't meant for rapists, but for well meaning people who erroneously believe that rapist won't rape if their intended victims do all the right things. If that were true, babies would not get raped. Rape is the act of the rapist, period. And not matter what the victim did or didn't do, the rape is the rapist fault 100%.

The moment you say, "if s/he had just done this..." you are saying the rapist somehow wasn't in control of his actions and the victim was.

If it's not a form of victim blaming, why didn't the poster say: "Two out of three rapes happen when you are sober"

 

[AthenaAwakened]

uh

This is tiring

My post isn't meant for rapists, but for well meaning people who erroneously believe that rapist won't rape if their intended victims do all the right things. If that were true, babies would not get raped. Rape is the act of the rapist, period. And not matter what the victim did or didn't do, the rape is the rapist fault 100%.

The moment you say, "if s/he had just done this..." you are saying the rapist somehow wasn't in control of his actions and the victim was.

If it's not a form of victim blaming, why didn't the poster say: "Two out of three rapes happen when you are sober"

Or have two pics on the poster, the one there now on one side and one with a drunk guy and the words

1 in 3 men convicted of rape were drunk when the incident happened. (or whatever the stats may be.)

On the other.

 

[The Paul]

Well, if all you're saying is that a paticular obviously unsecured building is more likely to be robbed than one that has been secured, all things being equal, you're not wrong.

If you try to suggest that if people were to do a better job of keeping their windows and doors locked there'd be fewer burglaries overall, though, you're probably wrong.

I'm not so sure.

There are probably two kinds of burglars - determined burglars and opportunistic burglars.
Determined burglars will break in somewhere - and locking doors and windows will just make it less likely that they burgle you, and more likely they burgle someone less security conscious.
Opportunistic burglars, on the other hand, probably wouldn't burgle anywhere if everywhere were locked up

After all, isn't what you are saying equivalent to saying that even if nobody locked their doors and windows there wouldn't be more burglaries. Because that seems implausible in the extreme.

There probably wouldn't be. Being an unattractive target doesn't prevent a crime from happening, it just means the crime happens to someone who makes a better victim than you. I doubt there are a lot of burglaries committed by people just wandering around, minding their own business who see an open window and suddenly say to themselves "What the fuck? I'm gonna try out robbing places." They are, for the most part, committed by people who are out looking for a suitable location to rob. If your house looks unsuitable then you probably won't be robbed, but that doesn't mean that a burglary has been prevented.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

How many of those are defined as "rapes" just because the accuser has been drinking and regrets the sex the next morning?

This OP points to how a well intended message can end up being perceived as blaming the victim. Stop derailing this thread!

He does have a point. Some drunk "rapes" are a case of regret in the morning, thus the stat is suspect.

 

[EricK]

I'm not so sure.

There are probably two kinds of burglars - determined burglars and opportunistic burglars.
Determined burglars will break in somewhere - and locking doors and windows will just make it less likely that they burgle you, and more likely they burgle someone less security conscious.
Opportunistic burglars, on the other hand, probably wouldn't burgle anywhere if everywhere were locked up

After all, isn't what you are saying equivalent to saying that even if nobody locked their doors and windows there wouldn't be more burglaries. Because that seems implausible in the extreme.

There probably wouldn't be. Being an unattractive target doesn't prevent a crime from happening, it just means the crime happens to someone who makes a better victim than you. I doubt there are a lot of burglaries committed by people just wandering around, minding their own business who see an open window and suddenly say to themselves "What the fuck? I'm gonna try out robbing places." They are, for the most part, committed by people who are out looking for a suitable location to rob. If your house looks unsuitable then you probably won't be robbed, but that doesn't mean that a burglary has been prevented.

I think, like any other type of businessman, there are a range of burglars from the highly skilled, highly committed down to the low-skilled, less committed. And just like any other business, if the barriers to entry are high enough, the weaker members will drop out of the market.

But even if you are right, do you think the same applies to drunken rape? Eg consider the sort of case which has made headlines recently - a girl at a college party gets very drunk, almost unconscious, and a group of boys sexually assault her. Do you believe that even if no females at that party had got very drunk, one of them would still have been assaulted? Or that those boys would have gone out after the party and assaulted some random woman? Because, again, I find that rather implausible.

 

[Tigers!]

But but but: why doesn't that also apply to men? Why not warn men to avoid drinking too much to protect themselves from a) rape and b)accusations of rape?

If you think there is a woman out there who doesn't realize that she's more vulnerable if she's been drinking, then you are very much mistaken. But all people--male and female people-often always misjudge how much alcohol they can handle and even how much they've had to drink not to mention their own state of drunkenness.

Why not impose drink limits and curfews on men as they are more likely to be rapists and women more likely to be victims?

Fixed it for you.
Yes but don't be discrimationly. Put limits on all people regardless of gender.

Why continue to punish victims/potential victims by forcing them to limit their own actions? Why not encourage men to limit their own actions and alcohol consumption and keep us all safer?

Yes but don't be discrimationly. Put limits on all people regardless of gender.

Why doesn't any look at the elephant in the room? Alcohol keeps coming up, it is a consistent factor in so many rapes/sexual assaults.
The drinking culture in UK, USA, Aust etc. causes so many problems. Solve that and many (but not all - to save myself some return fire) rapes/sexual assaults will not occur.

 

[Metaphor]

Would telling women not to accept opened drinks at parties also be blaming the victim?

 

[RavenSky]

This OP points to how a well intended message can end up being perceived as blaming the victim. Stop derailing this thread!

He does have a point. Some drunk "rapes" are a case of regret in the morning, thus the stat is suspect.

Let's pretend Derec has "a point" here. Then basically what you are saying is that the poster is even MORE victim-blaming than it appears on its surface.

If we eliminate these pretend gazillions of "false rape claims" then the stat would pretend be something like "1 in every 10 reported rapes happens when the victim has been drinking" - which frankly makes the victim-blaming even more obvious.

Hey, thanks for defending rape victims for a change guys!

 

[RavenSky]

I think that the goal should be that a compromise between having a good time while being intoxicated and protecting the intoxicated from being more easily attacked, robbed or raped.

All solutions and all problems should be on the table. As Bronzeage said this is not about victim blaming, but about victim warning. The automatic shutdown of conversation when it veers into victim warning is counterproductive.

If you don't have friends don't go out and get hammered (it is dangerous even with friends), you make yourself a bigger target.

The reason such conversations need to be "shut down" is that these are the ONLY conversations we ever have about rape. We, as a society, ONLY talk about what a woman must change about herself or her behavior to hopefully avoid being raped.

It is time for more conversation about, for instance, raising our boys to not assume consent unless it is explicit and enthusiastic; raising our boys and girls not to idolize the "drunken hook-up"; raising our girls to embrace their own sexuality so we eliminate the "no means yes" meme. It is time for more conversation about, for instance, making the prison sentences for rape match the severity of the crime; about having a "no tolerance" policy in our universities that doesn't allow admitted rapists to finish their school terms before being "expelled; about eliminating the boys club in our military that allows the gang rapes of our female soldiers to go unpunished. We could be having all of these conversations.

We do NOT need yet another conversation or stupid poster about what women should change about themselves or their behavior to attempt to avoid rape... especially when that very conversation or poster gives evidence as to how worthless those precautions really are.

The message in the poster in the OP is directed at women: if you want to avoid being raped - don't drink. Great! What about the other 2 out of 3 rape victims in their very own statistic? Where is the conversation about the women who do everything *right* - don't drink, don't dress provocatively, don't go out alone, don't walk in dangerous places, carry pepper spray when they are out, etc. ad nauseum... but they still get raped? What sage advice as to what else women *should do* to avoid being raped would you like to add to the *conversation*

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Guys, good job letting derec get this thread derailed from talking about victim blaming to arguing about definitions of "drunk rape". :clap:

Well he didn't too such a good job. Ravensky just above has posted a very good response that is on point.

 

[Toni]

Would telling women not to accept opened drinks at parties also be blaming the victim?

Are men counseled to not accept opened drinks at parties as well? Seriously, I'm asking.

My daughter was nearly white with rage when I talked to her about all the ways she needed to be careful--not just at parties. And legitimately so. My intent was not to imply that she would carry any blame if she were attacked. My intent was to do a better job than my own mother did. My mother told me that if a boy touched me, I should come to her and not to my father because my father would kill him. I delayed dating until long after most of my friends dated and then only under very controlled circumstances--group situations, guys I knew well and trusted. BTW, the two guys who attacked me did not attack me in a date situation nor in a party situation.

My daughters wondered what cautions I gave her brothers. Which were basically: if you are at a party, watch your own drink, No means no, no matter what and no matter what, use a condom unless you hope to become a father.

 

[whichphilosophy]

1 out of 1 rapes come about due to the actions of rapists.

Definitely correct.

 

[whichphilosophy]

Would telling women not to accept opened drinks at parties also be blaming the victim?

Are men counseled to not accept opened drinks at parties as well? Seriously, I'm asking.

My daughter was nearly white with rage when I talked to her about all the ways she needed to be careful--not just at parties. And legitimately so. My intent was not to imply that she would carry any blame if she were attacked. My intent was to do a better job than my own mother did. My mother told me that if a boy touched me, I should come to her and not to my father because my father would kill him. I delayed dating until long after most of my friends dated and then only under very controlled circumstances--group situations, guys I knew well and trusted. BTW, the two guys who attacked me did not attack me in a date situation nor in a party situation.

My daughters wondered what cautions I gave her brothers. Which were basically: if you are at a party, watch your own drink, No means no, no matter what and no matter what, use a condom unless you hope to become a father.

As well as making sure you take sealed drinks. Keep the drink in your hand to stop anyone slipping something in it. It's about being 'streetwise.' As for men who attack women, this is related to their states of mind.

 

[crispy]

http://www.vox.com/2014/8/4/5966593/anti-rape-campaign-victim-blaming

well done . . . :golfclap:

It wasnt till I read your take on the poster that i saw that point. Whether you like the fact or not, the poster its a warning, just as a warning sign in a subway about pickpockets is a warning. You never think when you see that sign that 'oh yeah sure blame the victim'.

To be honest there is a far way from blaming the victim here, although I agree that is generally is a problem. Here its simply an overreaction...

 

[crispy]

http://www.vox.com/2014/8/4/5966593/anti-rape-campaign-victim-blaming

well done . . . :golfclap:

Let me turn the question around. Your really drunk friend wants to go home through a park where its known that rapists hide around. Would you warn her? Or would that also be blaming the victim?

 

[Terrell]

Would telling women not to accept opened drinks at parties also be blaming the victim?

Are men counseled to not accept opened drinks at parties as well? Seriously, I'm asking.

My daughter was nearly white with rage when I talked to her about all the ways she needed to be careful--not just at parties. And legitimately so. My intent was not to imply that she would carry any blame if she were attacked. My intent was to do a better job than my own mother did. My mother told me that if a boy touched me, I should come to her and not to my father because my father would kill him. I delayed dating until long after most of my friends dated and then only under very controlled circumstances--group situations, guys I knew well and trusted. BTW, the two guys who attacked me did not attack me in a date situation nor in a party situation.

My daughters wondered what cautions I gave her brothers. Which were basically: if you are at a party, watch your own drink, No means no, no matter what and no matter what, use a condom unless you hope to become a father.

I don't know about other guys, but my mother told me about watching my drink, and not accepting open drinks from others. Rape isn't the only motivation to spike someone else's drink. Robbery & violence, in general, are also things to be considered. She also told me that no means no, and to use condoms as not all women who say they're on the pill are telling the truth and some have STDs. She gave me books about VD, back when STDs/STIs were more commonly called that, and drug abuse. Discussions, and books about these types of things started in elementary school.