RussiaGate

[Elixir]

According to your theory Renova did that on behalf of Putin and Putin has access to Trump already.

American and Russian oligarchs used different means and different access points to get to Twitler campaign. So just because AT&T, Novartis and Renova.ru used Cohen, it doesn't mean Putin didn't have a direct line. And it doesn't mean Alfa Bank wasn't trying to set something up with Trump or that Papadopolous wasn't trying to meet with spies.

Heh - whataboutism run amok. I'm surprised barbie didn't find a way to work BENGOZZIMAILS! into his defense of his fav murderous thug.

 

[Copernicus]

According to your theory Renova did that on behalf of Putin and Putin has access to Trump already.

American and Russian oligarchs used different means and different access points to get to Twitler campaign. So just because AT&T, Novartis and Renova.ru used Cohen, it doesn't mean Putin didn't have a direct line. And it doesn't mean Alfa Bank wasn't trying to set something up with Trump or that Papadopolous wasn't trying to meet with spies.

It's like how Renova.us is owned by one company in Bahamas and two in Cayman Islands. One in the Cayman Islands might funnel money through Greece first, but the other company in Cayman Islands might funnel money through a Swiss Bank Account first. Just because they funnel money differently, doesn't mean the other one isn't also funneling.

That's not the theory. The theory is that all russian oligarchs serve Putin. They are not trying to gain access to Trump for themselves, they are doing it for the Country, I mean Putin

And I feel the need to tell you that I used alpha bank DNS theory sarcastically because it was thoroughly debunked. Well, not completely thoroughly because people who put it forward have not been investigated for apparent criminal bullshitting.

Don't be silly, barbos. You know quite well that Vekselberg has close ties to Medvedev, who is best known for his loyalty to Putin. He is one of the only oligarchs who was not shoved aside when Putin came to power and consolidated his control over private wealth in Russia. I don't know whether all oligarchs serve Putin, but I suspect none are in a position to incur his displeasure. Vekselberg is probably not wealthier than Putin, but enough is publicly known about V's finances to rank him as the wealthiest Russian oligarch on public record. Who else could control the brand name "Made in Russia"?

As for Putin's fingers getting burned in the Cohen matter, that raid was not necessarily the result of the Russia investigation. Trump's Stormy relationship with a porn star had a lot to do with it. It was her lawyer who broke the news of the payments in public. And there is no reason at all to assume that Vekselberg was trying to buy access to Trump. You are quite right that Putin doesn't need this payment to gain access that he already had. What Cohen represented for Putin was what he thought would be a safe conduit through which to launder cash payments to the Trump organization. It gave Trump a slush fund to play with in matters such as paying hush money to porn stars, among other needs. For Vekselberg, this was low-cost influence peddling. Vekselberg is on the sanctions list, so it was also in his personal interest to help bribe Trump to work on that problem for Russia.

 

[braces_for_impact]

Cohen was selling his access to Trump to anybody willing to pay. Renova is not the only one paid him. Oh, I forgot, these are american oligarchs, it's different. sorry.

Fact is, Israel and Saudi Arabia have been doing (with great success) it for much of their recorded history and nobody is complaining. Why are you surprised that Russia tried this strategy too? They did not invent it, as they did not invent idea of Russia Today and other propaganda media companies.

Yes, there are additional crimes being committed by non-Russians as well and those are also serious and need to be looked into (so, it's good that this is being done and isn't actually some kind of different thing which is in any way being overlooked). That doesn't change any of the facts about the Russian connections, though.

Cohen was caught. But how many others like him have not been caught?
And the only reason Cohen (and Manafort, and the rest of the gang) was caught is because of Russia investigation. Without it he would still be happy and rich camper and a bunch of lawyers from these US companies would still be paying him for access to Trump. These people are not dumb, they know their chances and the mere fact that they are doing it is because chances of getting caught are low.

This is where you are wrong. They are EXCEEDINGLY dumb. During an investigation in which possible collusion has taken place, in which the now (in)famous dossier asserts that money exchanged hands, and in which several of the parties have spoken with the special counsel, money was OFFERED and ACCEPTED.

If that isn't stupid, I don't know what is.

 

[Elixir]

Cohen was caught. But how many others like him have not been caught?
And the only reason Cohen (and Manafort, and the rest of the gang) was caught is because of Russia investigation. Without it he would still be happy and rich camper and a bunch of lawyers from these US companies would still be paying him for access to Trump. These people are not dumb, they know their chances and the mere fact that they are doing it is because chances of getting caught are low.

This is where you are wrong. They are EXCEEDINGLY dumb. During an investigation in which possible collusion has taken place, in which the now (in)famous dossier asserts that money exchanged hands, and in which several of the parties have spoken with the special counsel, money was OFFERED and ACCEPTED.

If that isn't stupid, I don't know what is.

Very stupid. Unless of course, they're planning a coup. In that case, it doesn't matter WHAT they do; they'll be in control once the dust settles.

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

Simple enough. Stop with the tu quoque. It just affirms the argument. You may now and forever except the fact that other people in the world do bad things. You now need never mention the fact that other people do bad things again. It is agreed by all parties that other people doing bad things in no way, shape or form bears any relevance to the fact that specific individuals we are discussing are doing bad things.

There, now you can rest from being so tired.

I get it.

You really don’t, but that’s all right. Everyone else does.

 

[barbos]

Cohen was caught. But how many others like him have not been caught?
And the only reason Cohen (and Manafort, and the rest of the gang) was caught is because of Russia investigation. Without it he would still be happy and rich camper and a bunch of lawyers from these US companies would still be paying him for access to Trump. These people are not dumb, they know their chances and the mere fact that they are doing it is because chances of getting caught are low.

This is where you are wrong. They are EXCEEDINGLY dumb. During an investigation in which possible collusion has taken place, in which the now (in)famous dossier asserts that money exchanged hands, and in which several of the parties have spoken with the special counsel, money was OFFERED and ACCEPTED.

If that isn't stupid, I don't know what is.

You can't retroactively call people dumb when they get caught.
Maybe he is dumber than you, but for a lawyer he is fine. Is Stormy Attorney smart? Or we wait when he gets caught with his pants down and decide then? Most of these lawyers/politicians are stupid opportunists, as far as I am concerned.

 

[barbos]

That's not the theory. The theory is that all russian oligarchs serve Putin. They are not trying to gain access to Trump for themselves, they are doing it for the Country, I mean Putin

And I feel the need to tell you that I used alpha bank DNS theory sarcastically because it was thoroughly debunked. Well, not completely thoroughly because people who put it forward have not been investigated for apparent criminal bullshitting.

Don't be silly, barbos. You know quite well that Vekselberg has close ties to Medvedev, who is best known for his loyalty to Putin. He is one of the only oligarchs who was not shoved aside when Putin came to power and consolidated his control over private wealth in Russia.
I don't know whether all oligarchs serve Putin, but I suspect none are in a position to incur his displeasure. Vekselberg is probably not wealthier than Putin, but enough is publicly known about V's finances to rank him as the wealthiest Russian oligarch on public record. Who else could control the brand name "Made in Russia"?

As for Putin's fingers getting burned in the Cohen matter, that raid was not necessarily the result of the Russia investigation. Trump's Stormy relationship with a porn star had a lot to do with it. It was her lawyer who broke the news of the payments in public. And there is no reason at all to assume that Vekselberg was trying to buy access to Trump. You are quite right that Putin doesn't need this payment to gain access that he already had. What Cohen represented for Putin was what he thought would be a safe conduit through which to launder cash payments to the Trump organization. It gave Trump a slush fund to play with in matters such as paying hush money to porn stars, among other needs. For Vekselberg, this was low-cost influence peddling. Vekselberg is on the sanctions list, so it was also in his personal interest to help bribe Trump to work on that problem for Russia.

You are not very good at supporting official theory which I described. And Putin is wealthier than all oligarchs combined, after all he has the whole country for the next 6 years at least. My point is, Vekselberg has done nothing extraordinary as far as business in US concerned.

Reminded me one riussian/america businessman in US (made his fortune after immigrating to US in high tech) He struggled to get US government contracts until some retired US general suggested himself to the board of directors, after that everything was great.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

So this Russia thing.... this allegation goes back to Trump's election victory and what evidence do we have that he conspired illegally with the Russians? Anything? Its been a long time now. Will this ever go anywhere?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

So this Russia thing.... this allegation goes back to Trump's election victory and what evidence do we have that he conspired illegally with the Russians? Anything? Its been a long time now. Will this ever go anywhere?

Don't have much. Just the National Security Advisor lying about the Russians. Trump's campaign manager indicted for money laundering funds paid from the Russians. Some lawyer who is married to the founder of Alpha Group... pleaded or convicted about lying. Cohen accepted hundreds of thousands from a Ukranian firm.

Did I mention the secret meeting between Trump's son, son-in-law, Paul Manafort with the Kremlin informant, about promising information to use against Hillary Clinton? (in most circles, we consider that a smoking gun, but not for Trump)

The Roger Stone in contact with Assange thing?

Oh, and this little diddy.

Do you seriously have to ask?!!

Why is it taking so long? Well... gee, maybe the Special Prosecutor understands that taking getting this all done properly takes time... especially if the President was involved.

 

[Elixir]

So this Russia thing.... this allegation goes back to Trump's election victory and what evidence do we have that he conspired illegally with the Russians? Anything? Its been a long time now. Will this ever go anywhere?

Don't have much. Just the National Security Advisor lying about the Russians. Trump's campaign manager indicted for money laundering funds paid from the Russians. Some lawyer who is married to the founder of Alpha Group... pleaded or convicted about lying. Cohen accepted hundreds of thousands from a Ukranian firm.

Did I mention the secret meeting between Trump's son, son-in-law, Paul Manafort with the Kremlin informant, about promising information to use against Hillary Clinton? (in most circles, we consider that a smoking gun, but not for Trump)

The Roger Stone in contact with Assange thing?

Oh, and this little diddy.

Do you seriously have to ask?!!

Why is it taking so long? Well... gee, maybe the Special Prosecutor understands that taking getting this all done properly takes time... especially if the President was involved.

8 years of Whitewater, 2 years of bogus BIGOZZIMAILS investigation, but a year is too long to investigate a treasonous attempt to undermine the US electoral system?
WTF is wrong with Rethuglican hypocrites?

 

[braces_for_impact]

So this Russia thing.... this allegation goes back to Trump's election victory and what evidence do we have that he conspired illegally with the Russians? Anything? Its been a long time now. Will this ever go anywhere?

Don't have much. Just the National Security Advisor lying about the Russians. Trump's campaign manager indicted for money laundering funds paid from the Russians. Some lawyer who is married to the founder of Alpha Group... pleaded or convicted about lying. Cohen accepted hundreds of thousands from a Ukranian firm.

Did I mention the secret meeting between Trump's son, son-in-law, Paul Manafort with the Kremlin informant, about promising information to use against Hillary Clinton? (in most circles, we consider that a smoking gun, but not for Trump)

The Roger Stone in contact with Assange thing?

Oh, and this little diddy.

Do you seriously have to ask?!!

Why is it taking so long? Well... gee, maybe the Special Prosecutor understands that taking getting this all done properly takes time... especially if the President was involved.

8 years of Whitewater, 2 years of bogus BIGOZZIMAILS investigation, but a year is too long to investigate a treasonous attempt to undermine the US electoral system?
WTF is wrong with Rethuglican hypocrites?

I know right? Good lord this is a popular "rebuttal" in Trump humper circles. I'm sure that when the dust settles and everyone lies in chains, the Trumpers will be lined up everywhere, simply everywhere, all holding signs saying "I WAS WRONG. I WAS AN IMPATIENT PRICK."

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

Oh, and this little diddy.

This is the real smoking gun. Why in the world would Russians Court Republicans? For literally decades, republicans (small “r”) have called liberals “commie pinko bastards” for their historically apologetic stance on pretty much all things Russian, particularly back in the McCarthy days, but also under Reagan when the Cold War got much hotter. Red Dawn was every asshole republican wannnabe kid’s jerkoff film while all the rest of my generation wore soviet flags and pins to school.

So any attempt to cozy up to Americans—if that’s what it actually was—should logically have been through liberals first. But if you’re wolves in sheep’s clothing, then you have to target the sheep and there is no better place for the devil to hide than among “devout” Christians:

"[Vladimir] Putin and probably the Russian intelligence services saw [Torshin's connections] as something that they could leverage in the United States," said Steve Hall, a retired CIA chief of Russian operations. "They reach out to a guy like Torshin and say, 'Hey, can you make contact with the NRA and some other conservatives ... so that we can have connectivity from Moscow into those conservative parts of American politics should we need them?' And that's basically just wiring the United States for sound, if you will, in preparation for whatever they might need down the road."

ETA: I missed this little tidbit farther down in the piece:

Torshin's travels in the United States continued with a strange trip to Tennessee. Public records requests made by NPR shed light on how Torshin managed to become an election observer in Nashville during the 2012 presidential elections.

"The interesting thing about election monitoring is it does get foreign officials out and about in places that they perhaps might not usually go," said Hall, the former CIA chief of Russian operations. "It wouldn't be uncommon for either somebody like Mr. Torshin, or a diplomat, or a Russian intelligence officer to appear in places like Washington or New York ... But a place like Nashville, or other locations in the United States, provide sort of an insight about what's really going on in the heartland."

A memo left for Tennessee Secretary of State Tre Hargett on Oct. 11, 2012, shows that local lawyer Kline Preston, known for his support of Putin, made the application for election observer status on behalf of Torshin.

"Russian Senator Alexander Torshin would like to observe our Presidential election. Polling stations," the 2012 message reads.

And what then happens a few years later? Russians hack 39 state’s polling places, not to try to change votes, but to steal information about the voters (and—possibly—how they voted as I’ve pointed out previously).

Down, down, down. Would the fall never come to an end?

 

[Underseer]

So this Russia thing.... this allegation goes back to Trump's election victory and what evidence do we have that he conspired illegally with the Russians? Anything? Its been a long time now. Will this ever go anywhere?

Don't have much. Just the National Security Advisor lying about the Russians. Trump's campaign manager indicted for money laundering funds paid from the Russians. Some lawyer who is married to the founder of Alpha Group... pleaded or convicted about lying. Cohen accepted hundreds of thousands from a Ukranian firm.

Did I mention the secret meeting between Trump's son, son-in-law, Paul Manafort with the Kremlin informant, about promising information to use against Hillary Clinton? (in most circles, we consider that a smoking gun, but not for Trump)

The Roger Stone in contact with Assange thing?

Oh, and this little diddy.

Do you seriously have to ask?!!

Why is it taking so long? Well... gee, maybe the Special Prosecutor understands that taking getting this all done properly takes time... especially if the President was involved.

8 years of Whitewater, 2 years of bogus BIGOZZIMAILS investigation, but a year is too long to investigate a treasonous attempt to undermine the US electoral system?
WTF is wrong with Rethuglican hypocrites?

But that's different. Those were Democrats.

We can't investigate Republicans for crimes! That is obvious evidence of a deep state conspiracy against the rule of men!

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Senate Committee Releases 2,500 Pages About 2016 Trump Tower Meeting

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Senate Committee Releases 2,500 Pages About 2016 Trump Tower Meeting

What is with Manafort's Haiku? Odd how it describes some shady stuff... then ends with Adoption.

 

[braces_for_impact]

I think we may have to change the title of this thread from RUSSIAGATE to IS THERE ANYONE THAT DIDN'T TRY TO COVERTLY ASSIST GETTING TRUMP ELECTED?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I think we may have to change the title of this thread from RUSSIAGATE to IS THERE ANYONE THAT DIDN'T TRY TO COVERTLY ASSIST GETTING TRUMP ELECTED?

Well, I didn't. End of subthread.

 

[barbos]

So this Russia thing.... this allegation goes back to Trump's election victory and what evidence do we have that he conspired illegally with the Russians? Anything? Its been a long time now. Will this ever go anywhere?

Don't have much. Just the National Security Advisor lying about the Russians. Trump's campaign manager indicted for money laundering funds paid from the Russians. Some lawyer who is married to the founder of Alpha Group...

Not to the founder, to his daughter.

pleaded or convicted about lying. Cohen accepted hundreds of thousands from a Ukranian firm.

Did I mention the secret meeting between Trump's son, son-in-law, Paul Manafort with the Kremlin informant, about promising information to use against Hillary Clinton? (in most circles, we consider that a smoking gun, but not for Trump)

The Roger Stone in contact with Assange thing?

Oh, and this little diddy.

If this is all there is to it then this is yuge nothing burger if you ask me.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Not to the founder, to his daughter.

pleaded or convicted about lying. Cohen accepted hundreds of thousands from a Ukranian firm.

Did I mention the secret meeting between Trump's son, son-in-law, Paul Manafort with the Kremlin informant, about promising information to use against Hillary Clinton? (in most circles, we consider that a smoking gun, but not for Trump)

The Roger Stone in contact with Assange thing?

Oh, and this little diddy.

If this is all there is to it then this is yuge nothing burger if you ask me.

This is what we know of. We know that the Trump Campaign tried to collude with Russians.

We believe we know that there was communications between Stone and Assange regarding the release of stolen DNC emails. Where that goes, time will tell.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Not to the founder, to his daughter.

pleaded or convicted about lying. Cohen accepted hundreds of thousands from a Ukranian firm.

Did I mention the secret meeting between Trump's son, son-in-law, Paul Manafort with the Kremlin informant, about promising information to use against Hillary Clinton? (in most circles, we consider that a smoking gun, but not for Trump)

The Roger Stone in contact with Assange thing?

Oh, and this little diddy.

If this is all there is to it then this is yuge nothing burger if you ask me.

This is what we know of. We know that the Trump Campaign tried to collude with Russians.

We believe we know that there was communications between Stone and Assange regarding the release of stolen DNC emails. Where that goes, time will tell.

No wonder Trump's CIA goons were allegedly trying to kill him.