RussiaGate

[Underseer]

So they conspired with money against the United States? If they are guilty of conspiracy, they had to be conspiring with someone against the United States. If not the Russians, then who?

Manafort had a long history of lobbying for foreign governments. The last Slavic nation he lobbied for was Ukraine. Ukraine is not too friendly with the Russians, if you recall.

Wait, I thought he was conspiring with the other Trump staffer, now you admit that he was conspiring with a foreign government? Because even if it's Ukrainians, these Ukrainians have ties to Russia.

Why didn't you just admit you were wrong before?

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

I think it's that they conspired with each other for the money laundering, tax evasion, offshore accounts, false statements, etc. That was the conspiracy for which they could be charged.

As a logical consequence, other entities external to the U.S. could have been involved such as banks in Cyprus or Russians in Ukraine, but they would not be charged under our federal laws. So they could be part of some other conspiracy or to help in the conspiracy, but not included in the charged conspiracy crime.

Likewise, Manafort may have also acted on behalf of Russian soldiers fighting NATO. It's possible, but not really in the charges. At this point.

With this crooked administration who knows what future charges there will be, though.

Also, as I wrote before, Manafort was working for Putin ultimately (prior to working for Trump allegedly).

 

[Underseer]

Ok, so I think I finally understand now. I'm sorry for being so slow.

It is wrong to say that he was conspiring with Russians against the United States because he was in fact conspiring with members of the Ukrainian government who happen to have ties to the Russian government.

That seems like an awfully fine hair to split, but whatever makes you happy.

 

[Underseer]

So Paul Manafort conspired with Gates "against the United States" to launder money from members of the Ukrainian government that had ties to the Russian government, therefore it is wrong to say that Russia has anything to do with this.

Again, I'm sorry that it took me so long to understand this great and tremendous difference.

 

[Underseer]

Russia! Russia! Russia!

Them stupid libtards think that members of the Trump administration conspired with Russia, when in fact they conspired with each other to launder money from members of the Ukrainian government who had ties to the Russian government, which is like totally different, but libtards are too stupid to understand the important difference! Haw haw!

Is the statement more accurate now?

 

[Trausti]

Russia! Russia! Russia!

Them stupid libtards think that members of the Trump administration conspired with Russia, when in fact they conspired with each other to launder money from members of the Ukrainian government who had ties to the Russian government, which is like totally different, but libtards are too stupid to understand the important difference! Haw haw!

Is the statement more accurate now?

Which happened before they ever joined the Trump campaign. FFS.

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So Paul Manafort conspired with Gates "against the United States" to launder money from members of the Ukrainian government that had ties to the Russian government, therefore it is wrong to say that Russia has anything to do with this.

Again, I'm sorry that it took me so long to understand this great and tremendous difference.

What does this have to do with Trump?

 

[Underseer]

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Which happened before they ever joined the Trump campaign. FFS.

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So Paul Manafort conspired with Gates "against the United States" to launder money from members of the Ukrainian government that had ties to the Russian government, therefore it is wrong to say that Russia has anything to do with this.

Again, I'm sorry that it took me so long to understand this great and tremendous difference.

What does this have to do with Trump?

Right. It was only Trumps campaign manager. How can anyone think that has anything to do with Trump?

 

[Trausti]

View attachment 12987

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Which happened before they ever joined the Trump campaign. FFS.

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What does this have to do with Trump?

Right. It was only Trumps campaign manager. How can anyone think that has to do with Trump?

All of that was before Manafort joined the Trump campaign. Again, nothing to do with Trump. And Manafort's lobbying for Yanukovych was no secret when the Trump campaign took him on board.

 

[Trausti]

Clinton voters must be very stupid.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Manafort's lobbying for Yanukovych was no secret when the Trump campaign took him on board.

That makes it worse, especially but not only if Trump also knew about the money laundering.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

All of that was before Manafort joined the Trump campaign.

So Manafort established a reputation on crooked Russian dealings which is part of the reason he ended up at a meeting with Don Jr and Russians, but it's not relevant.

 

[Ford]

Right. It was only Trumps campaign manager. How can anyone think that has anything to do with Trump?

Campaign manager, former aide, former cabinet members, current cabinet members, his son-in-law, and his own son, but seriously, none of this has anything whatsoever to do with Trump.

 

[Copernicus]

There has been a lot of banter in this thread about what "conspiracy" means here. Just read the actual indictment itself. Look at "COUNT ONE". That spells out what the conspiracy is. It is between Manafort and Gates. It is not about conspiracy with Russians. In fact, the indictment against Manafort and Gates has nothing to do directly with collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia. The conspiracy against the United States is about the alleged efforts of these two gentlemen to defraud the US government regarding their activities on behalf of a foreign government. That is, they conspired to promote the interests of a foreign power without legally registering as agents of that foreign power. Count two is an allegation of their conspiracy to launder money. The charges against Papadopoulos, which the accused has pleaded guilty to, are about collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia.

 

[Underseer]

There. I changed the word "administration" to "campaign."

Is everyone satisfied with the image accuracy now?

 

[Copernicus]

View attachment 12991

There. I changed the word "administration" to "campaign."

Is everyone satisfied with the image accuracy now?

Oh, no, Underseer. You've got it totally wrong. What people think is not necessarily what can be proven. It is just what looks likely to most of us, including probably you, if you are honest. What can be proven in a court of law has yet to be established. Yanukovych was a Russian puppet, which was what got him run out of Ukraine. Manafort was part of the organization that had worked on behalf of the Russian government to install him, and this indictment was all about those activities, which led up to the present circumstances. What is totally different here is the likelihood of collusion and the ability of the government to prove that collusion (technically "conspiracy") in a court of law. We are still at an early stage in the investigation. Let's see if appearances turn out to be legally provable. Most people in the US are already pretty convinced that Trump made a faustian bargain with Putin to gain the presidency. Indeed, Congress is convinced of it, and that is why they passed the Russia sanctions law that Trump signed but appears not willing to enforce.

 

[Trausti]

Manafort's lobbying for Yanukovych was no secret when the Trump campaign took him on board.

That makes it worse, especially but not only if Trump also knew about the money laundering.

And especially if Trump knew that Manafort kicked puppies and listened to Nickelback. This is the end of drumpf.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

That makes it worse, especially but not only if Trump also knew about the money laundering.

And especially if Trump knew that Manafort kicked puppies and listened to Nickelback. This is the end of drumpf.

You've responded with skepticism to an undue degree, but not even addressed the first part. The first part:
"[t]hat makes it worse..."

So the [alleged by you] fact that Manafort was known to have worked for Yanukovych prior to Trump hiring him makes it worse.

Since you like a puppy-kicking analogy, I'll extend that. If Manafort was known to have kicked puppies for 8 years and then Trump hired him, then that's not looking good on Trump.

 

[barbos]

All of that was before Manafort joined the Trump campaign.

So Manafort established a reputation on crooked Russian dealings which is part of the reason he ended up at a meeting with Don Jr and Russians, but it's not relevant.

I think he established his reputation during Reagan administration.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

So Manafort established a reputation on crooked Russian dealings which is part of the reason he ended up at a meeting with Don Jr and Russians, but it's not relevant.

I think he established his reputation during Reagan administration.

2006-2014 was when he worked for Yanukovych which Trausti is saying Trump knew about.

Let's say you were a veterinarian and so why would you hire someone who you knew was kicking puppies for 8 years, ending about a year or two before you decided you may hire him? What would that say about you if you hired a guy like that to head the whole facility operations of the animal shelter where you worked?

 

[Tom Sawyer]

It would mean that you hire the best people. Seriously, your hiring skills are just superb. Anything that tries to claim differently is fake news - which is a term I invented myself.