Russian Invasion of Ukraine - tactics and logistics

[TV and credit cards]

Russia clearly names the conditions for the military operation in Ukraine to end

Russia will stop the operation under the following conditions:

english.pravda.ru

Russia will stop the operation under the following conditions:

• Ukraine must recognise Crimea as Russian territory;
• Ukraine must recognise the independence of the DPR and the LPR;
• Ukraine should amend the Constitution and abandon its claims to join "any bloc."

Читайте больше на https://english.pravda.ru/news/russia/150614-russia_ukraine/

• Before Ukraine beats us back and we lose it.
• Before Ukraine beats us back and we lose it.
• Well you really screwed the pooch on that one, said Ukraine and Sweden and Finland and ...

 

[ZiprHead]

The risk of a nuclear apocalypse is simply too great for the West to intervene on Ukraine's behalf. Russia has even more nuclear warheads than the US does, and its leader is clearly unstable and not likely to recover his senses. It is not up to the US or Europe to decide what Ukraine should do. All they can do is decide to send defensive weapons, provide a safe haven for refugees, and impose economic sanctions. Those are the only options. The Ukrainians themselves are perfectly capable of surrender, negotiation, or continued resistance. The Russians can decide whether to continue fighting or simply retreat back into their positions before the start of the invasion.

I've seen people speculate as to what "we" should be willing to sacrifice in Ukraine to get this war to end. Should we send Migs to Ukraine and risk a widening of the war? Should we impose a no-fly zone and risk widening the war? Those options are madness. They won't make Putin recover his sanity except in our dreams. The reality is that we are powerless to save Ukraine from Russia or Russia from itself. Nuclear weapons serve only two purposes in the modern world: deterrence or suicide.

DoD spokesperson Kirby explained MiGs aren't the solution because there is so much surface to air capabilities on both sides, there's not a lot of flying going on. It sounds like they might do more harm than good in drawing NATO closer into conflict with Russia.
I know Zelensky wants them and a no-fly zone but I'm inclined to go with the recommendations of the US military and all their intel and surveillance capabilities over Zelensky. I know he's there on the ground but I question what kind of information (or the lack of) he could be getting from his military.

I would also imagine those Migs are now equipped with NATO communications and targeting systems that they don't want falling into Russian hands.

 

[Elixir]

“Ukraine should amend the Constitution and abandon its claims to join "any bloc”
Is a typo. He meant abandon the constitution and amend any other claim, to become part of Russia.

 

[SLD]

Heres an example of piss poor military tactics by Russian armor. They fail to press the attack, or to defend themselves and flee backwards When faced with strong resistance.

they’ll probably resort to terror bombing from afar this suburb of Kiev. But if they can’t take and hold territory, they can’t win.

 

[Copernicus]

DoD spokesperson Kirby explained MiGs aren't the solution because there is so much surface to air capabilities on both sides, there's not a lot of flying going on. It sounds like they might do more harm than good in drawing NATO closer into conflict with Russia.
I know Zelensky wants them and a no-fly zone but I'm inclined to go with the recommendations of the US military and all their intel and surveillance capabilities over Zelensky. I know he's there on the ground but I question what kind of information (or the lack of) he could be getting from his military.

Kirby may be right that they wouldn't be all that useful in the end. However, the more difficult question is how to get those warplanes into Ukraine. If they are flown out of a NATO country, that would be perceived as direct participation of that country in the war being fought in Ukraine and invite further expansion of the war beyond Ukraine's borders. Russia has already declared its own "no fly zone" over Ukraine. We can't assume that Putin would respond rationally, as he hasn't been acting rationally up to this point. Further provocations aren't likely to nudge him in the direction that we need.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

In the news Russia is not using large scale air power because the anti aircraft e weapons being supplied to Ukraine are effective.

This. Russia obviously doesn't have enough standoff weapons and if you want to get iron bombs on target you enter the envelop of the Stinger. Surprise attack, yes, but against an alert enemy you had better hope your flares can decoy the missile away.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Ruskies don’t even stop for red traffic lights. Jeez.

Of course they don't. Stopping would be a good way to get ambushed.

 

[bilby]

However, the more difficult question is how to get those warplanes into Ukraine.

Put them in a shipping container, and send them by road or rail.

You just need a small team of skilled technicians to reassemble them at the destination airfield; If Ukraine doesn't have such a team, then you can send them along too.

Cuba was sending MiGs to North Korea in shipping containers a decade ago, so I am sure it can still be done today.

 

[Copernicus]

However, the more difficult question is how to get those warplanes into Ukraine.

Put them in a shipping container, and send them by road or rail.

You just need a small team of skilled technicians to reassemble them at the destination airfield; If Ukraine doesn't have such a team, then you can send them along too.

Cuba was sending MiGs to North Korea in shipping containers a decade ago, so I am sure it can still be done today.

North Korea was not fighting a war at the same time, and most of the Ukrainian infrastructure on the ground needed to reassemble the aircraft has reportedly been destroyed. Anyway, I am out of my depth on this subject, so you might need to volunteer your services, if they run into glitches along the way. I could help them write up the assembly instructions in clear Simplified Technical English.

 

[bleubird]

Love her spirit.

 

[ZiprHead]

Bugging out.

 

[SigmatheZeta]

I had a minor depressive episode over this, and I got a little weird. I am starting to rebound a little.

The fact that Ukraine's government is still in the fight has given me heart.

Also, the fact that Russia has resorted to the slaughter of civilians is unsurprising to me.

 

[Harry Bosch]

I had a minor depressive episode over this, and I got a little weird. I am starting to rebound a little.

The fact that Ukraine's government is still in the fight has given me heart.

Also, the fact that Russia has resorted to the slaughter of civilians is unsurprising to me.

I hope that you have been able to get some help and are feeling better. Yes, while Ukraine and its people have been inspiring, its still depressing for everyone watching the brutality that Russia is causing. I have in-laws living in Poland who are very worried. The Polish people are really helping their neighbors - at great expense for them. But they are also preparing for war.

 

[SigmatheZeta]

I had a minor depressive episode over this, and I got a little weird. I am starting to rebound a little.

The fact that Ukraine's government is still in the fight has given me heart.

Also, the fact that Russia has resorted to the slaughter of civilians is unsurprising to me.

I hope that you have been able to get some help and are feeling better. Yes, while Ukraine and it's people have been inspiring, it's still be depressing for everyone watching the brutality that Russia is causing. I have in-laws living in Poland who are very worried. The Polish people are really helping their neighbors - at great expense for them. But they are also preparing for war also.

I just don't like seeing my prejudice toward the Russian government confirmed. I had had a low opinion of them for a long time, but a part of me thought, "No, you are exaggerating. Modern governments are not like that." I kept wanting to tell myself that subjects that people feel emotional about lead to them cherry-picking information until they have constructed a simplistic and fantastical portrait of what the subject of their disdain is like, and even though I have said for years, "The Russian government is kind of fucked-up," I kept a sense of detachment from that belief.

I kept wanting to believe that we had left that kind of brutality in another century.

20th Century, this is Sigma calling, from the 21st Century. Come get your barbarism. You left it here.

 

[bleubird]

A customer of the store I still work part time(I will be 70 next month)Volunteered for service in Ukraine. His is an Veteran of the Irac war and a jet pilot.

 

[SigmatheZeta]

The Russian reply to this charge, of course, is that Ukrainian Nazis did it in order to make Russians look bad

Ah yes, those mthical Nazi's that have evaded detection, capture or even being photographed

To be fair, there is what started off as the Azov battalion, a right-wing extremist, neo-Nazi, formerly paramilitary unit of the National Guard of Ukraine, and at least some of its units have been photographed.

It was formed in May 2014. On 12 November 2014, the battallion was incorporated into the National Guard of Ukraine. Since then all members have been official soldiers serving in the National Guard. As membership grew, the battallion became a regiment. In 2017 the size of the regiment was estimated at more than 2,500 members.

That said, Putin's claim of liberating Ukraine from Nazi oppression is a bizarre thing to say about a country whose head of state, elected by popular vote, is Jewish.

Here is an interesting paper on both Ukrainian and Russian far-right involvement in the 2014 war:

https://www.ifri.org/sites/default/files/atoms/files/rnv95_uk_likhachev_far-right_radicals_final.pdf

Basically, Ukrainian far right didn't get political prominence until 2010 when pro-Russian Yanukovich was elected president. They didn't really have much to do with the revolution in early 2014, they lost their parliamentary seats due to infighting and misorganization after that. And while Azov battalion and other smaller groups have been able to get some good press from fighting in Eastern Ukraine, their involvement hasn't been critical. The point is that without Russia invading Ukraine and annexing Crimea, there would be no "Azov battalion".

At the same time, Russia has also been recruiting from far-right groups in Russia.

I wish they had chosen a symbol besides the wolf trap symbol. I like wolves.

However, I think it is meaningful that those men and anarchist organizations are fighting on the same side. Ukraine is in a unique situation where people with otherwise irreconcilable differences have found a subject that they agree on.

Neither of them appreciates the Russian military shelling civilian targets.

They can figure other stupid shit out later.

Here is what I really need to know about a person, the answer to this simple multiple choice question.

Question: If your city were surrounded by the tanks of any government whatsoever and they were shelling civilian targets, then how would you handle that situation?

Aswers:

​

a) offer them agreeable terms of surrender​

b) find a way to sell out to the enemy for personal gain​

c) attempt to evacuate the population of the city​

d) dig in for a long siege​

​

Because if you would answer "a," I have contempt for you. If you would answer "b," your name is Donald Trump. If you would answer "c," I get it, but I just don't think that way. If you would answer "d," then you and I agree on the only points that ultimately matter. All points where we might disagree are assorted and sundry and various stupid shit that can be settled when our city is not being fucking shelled by the enemy's artillery.

There is a basic common thread in human consciousness that unites people that would otherwise fight like wildcats. That common thread is an instinctive sense of disgusted outrage toward a bully.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

However, the more difficult question is how to get those warplanes into Ukraine.

Put them in a shipping container, and send them by road or rail.

You just need a small team of skilled technicians to reassemble them at the destination airfield; If Ukraine doesn't have such a team, then you can send them along too.

Cuba was sending MiGs to North Korea in shipping containers a decade ago, so I am sure it can still be done today.

Train route to Ukraine likely isn't a simple one.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I had a minor depressive episode over this, and I got a little weird. I am starting to rebound a little.

The fact that Ukraine's government is still in the fight has given me heart.

Also, the fact that Russia has resorted to the slaughter of civilians is unsurprising to me.

I hope that you have been able to get some help and are feeling better. Yes, while Ukraine and its people have been inspiring, its still depressing for everyone watching the brutality that Russia is causing. I have in-laws living in Poland who are very worried. The Polish people are really helping their neighbors - at great expense for them. But they are also preparing for war.

It becomes a question of money. How long does Russia have before it can no longer wage a war. It was one thing to throw people at the Nazis (actual Nazis), it is an entirely different thing to make people fight a fake war on an empty stomach.

 

[Hermit]

I wish they had chosen a symbol besides the wolf trap symbol. I like wolves.

I like wolves too, but the adoption of the Wolfsangel logo is probably one of the less objectionable aspects of the Azov regiment.

Here is what I really need to know about a person, the answer to this simple multiple choice question.

Question: If your city were surrounded by the tanks of any government whatsoever and they were shelling civilian targets, then how would you handle that situation?

Aswers:

​

a) offer them agreeable terms of surrender​

b) find a way to sell out to the enemy for personal gain​

c) attempt to evacuate the population of the city​

d) dig in for a long siege​

e) I would shout


​

Seriously now, d made sense in the case of Leningrad. It tied up many of the Wehrmacht's divisions which bought additional time for the Soviets to grow their armies to the point where they were able to win the war. It made no sense in the case of Berlin. The war was already lost. Not offering to surrender had only two inevitable results: the lives of thousands of civilians and soldiers were pointlessly sacrificed and the entire city was turned to rubble.

 

[Elixir]

it is an entirely different thing to make people fight a fake war on an empty stomach.

That's the nub of it. It's a lie. A war under a fake disguise as ... whatever the Russian troops were told their mission was. That's probably different things for different units, depending on how much actual truth they needed to know before hitting the ground. But they know damn well it's not a life and death fight for their Nation's survival, as it is for Ukranians. If it was a struggle for their national survival, Russians would probably be a formidable force to be reckoned with, empty stomachs and all. But as it is, the personnel are not such a force, only some of their equipment is.
Putin is following the long Russian tradition of considering his own military personnel to be as expendable as any piece of hardware or opposing combatant. How that has to feel while putting one's life on the line for the vanity of one probably insane individual... can't be good.
The invocation of "NAZIS!" has to be ringing hollow at this point, for the boots on the ground if not for the rest of the Russian citizenry.

It's a virtual certainty at this point that Pootey is fucked. It's only a question of how many people he can drag down with him, and how far down he can drag them.