• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

Russian Invasion of Ukraine - tactics and logistics

Elixir

Made in America
Joined
Sep 23, 2012
Messages
20,068
Location
Mountains
Basic Beliefs
English is complicated
I said Germanic. And I'm still right. You are just wrong.
No, ukrainian does not have germanic words.
What is the point of that anyway? Where are you going with this BS?
Wikipedia disagrees with you, and seems to confirm what Zoidberg is saying.


During the 13th century, when German settlers were invited to Ukraine by the princes of the Kingdom of Ruthenia, German words began to appear in the language spoken in Ukraine. Their influence would continue under Poland not only through German colonists but also through the Yiddish-speaking Jews. Often such words involve trade or handicrafts. Examples of words of German or Yiddish origin spoken in Ukraine include dakh (roof), rura (pipe), rynok (market), kushnir (furrier), and majster (master or craftsman).

(...)

Due to heavy borrowings from Polish, German, Czech and Latin, early modern vernacular Ukrainian (prosta mova, "simple speech") had more lexical similarity with West Slavic languages than with Russian or Church Slavonic. By the mid-17th century, the linguistic divergence between the Ukrainian and Russian languages had become so significant that there was a need for translators during negotiations for the Treaty of Pereyaslav, between Bohdan Khmelnytsky, head of the Zaporozhian Host, and the Russian state.

Interesting.
Showing definitively that Barbos is talking out of his ass again, priceless.
 

Jayjay

Contributor
Joined
Apr 8, 2002
Messages
5,690
Location
Finland
Basic Beliefs
An accurate worldview or philosophy
A friend in the Swedish military tells me they have now switched to a stance where war with Russia is likely and inevitable. That's what they are training for. Finland and Sweden were already allied. But now they are having joint excercises. For practical purposes Sweden and Finland now has a single unified army designed with a single purpose, defending against Russian aggression.

I see Sweden and Finland joining NATO ASAP as a given. Once that is final Denmark and Norway will add their troops to the Finish defence. And perhaps more importantly, their money.

Yes, I know, soldiers always assume the worst. It is their job. But the degree to that they take this recent development seriously is pretty scary.

Both world wars went from very peaceful to war in a very short time. Things can quickly spiral out of control
What the hell did the Swedish army think they were training for before? :oops:
 

DrZoidberg

Contributor
Joined
Nov 29, 2007
Messages
10,156
Location
Copenhagen
Basic Beliefs
Atheist
I said Germanic. And I'm still right. You are just wrong.
No, ukrainian does not have germanic words.
What is the point of that anyway? Where are you going with this BS?
Wikipedia disagrees with you, and seems to confirm what Zoidberg is saying.


During the 13th century, when German settlers were invited to Ukraine by the princes of the Kingdom of Ruthenia, German words began to appear in the language spoken in Ukraine. Their influence would continue under Poland not only through German colonists but also through the Yiddish-speaking Jews. Often such words involve trade or handicrafts. Examples of words of German or Yiddish origin spoken in Ukraine include dakh (roof), rura (pipe), rynok (market), kushnir (furrier), and majster (master or craftsman).

(...)

Due to heavy borrowings from Polish, German, Czech and Latin, early modern vernacular Ukrainian (prosta mova, "simple speech") had more lexical similarity with West Slavic languages than with Russian or Church Slavonic. By the mid-17th century, the linguistic divergence between the Ukrainian and Russian languages had become so significant that there was a need for translators during negotiations for the Treaty of Pereyaslav, between Bohdan Khmelnytsky, head of the Zaporozhian Host, and the Russian state.

Interesting.
Showing definitively that Barbos is talking out of his ass again, priceless.

My Ukrainian lover told me that when people say that Ukrainians sounds just like Russian, it's because that Ukrainian is probably speaking Russian at that point. Ukrainians are often fluent in both. Due to the similarities and close cultural ties, it's pretty easy for Ukrainians to learn Russian, and do. But they're not the same language. They use different alphabets! A lot of similarities. But they are distinct.

This is not hard to look up.


 

DrZoidberg

Contributor
Joined
Nov 29, 2007
Messages
10,156
Location
Copenhagen
Basic Beliefs
Atheist
A friend in the Swedish military tells me they have now switched to a stance where war with Russia is likely and inevitable. That's what they are training for. Finland and Sweden were already allied. But now they are having joint excercises. For practical purposes Sweden and Finland now has a single unified army designed with a single purpose, defending against Russian aggression.

I see Sweden and Finland joining NATO ASAP as a given. Once that is final Denmark and Norway will add their troops to the Finish defence. And perhaps more importantly, their money.

Yes, I know, soldiers always assume the worst. It is their job. But the degree to that they take this recent development seriously is pretty scary.

Both world wars went from very peaceful to war in a very short time. Things can quickly spiral out of control
What the hell did the Swedish army think they were training for before? :oops:

The most likely combat scenario they were earlier training for was joining an international US-led coalition somewhere around the world. Like the war in former Yugoslavia, Afghanistan, Iraq or somewhere in Africa. Either as part of a UN-police action or as an attacking force. Offensive training. They saw the risk of war in Europe as low.

Now Sweden has switched from training for a predominantly offensive style of warfare, to a defensive style of warfare. Or more precisely, being a defensive reinforcement to Finland specifically. So it's quite a big shift.

I would have thought defending the Baltic states should also be a priority. But it's not. Perhaps, because they're members of NATO, Sweden assumes USA has that covered, and is focusing on the Finnish defense? I really don't know. Or perhaps they don't think they're possible to defend?

Trivia: The attached picture is a statue of Charles XII of Sweden. He lost to the Russians at the battle of Poltava (1709 in Ukraine). The outcome of that battle is what later led to Ukraine being absorbed into Russia. The statue is pointing towards Moscow. This is to remind Swedes who pass below the statue of who their enemy is. It's also a handy way to know what direction east is when navigating downtown Stockholm. It's a prominent statue.

 

Attachments

  • preview.jpg
    preview.jpg
    57.9 KB · Views: 1
  • Like
Reactions: SLD

bilby

Fair dinkum thinkum
Joined
Mar 7, 2007
Messages
26,790
Location
The Sunshine State: The one with Crocs, not Gators
Gender
He/Him
Basic Beliefs
Strong Atheist
This war in Ukraine is Russian ultranationalism rearing its ugly head again. It is a historical jihad.
Do you think it is Russian nationalism? To be more precise, and perhaps I'm splitting hairs but I see it as Tsarist imperialism. I don't think Joe Russian gives two shits about Putin's vainglorious ambitions.

Yes, I think that it is Russian ultranationalism--the brand of Russian fascism that Putin appears to be promoting with his "Z" campaign that gets painted and displayed all over the place on Russian military vehicles. They are even going to some lengths now to rehabilitate Stalin, who was the Soviet equivalent of Adolph Hitler. That's why they are sending this historian to a gulag:

Russian Historian Dmitriyev To Be Transferred To Penal Colony


Ukrainians in general are now continually mocked and vilified in the state-controlled press, and we can see that attitude reflected in barbos's rhetoric here. Putin is a full-blooded right wing fascist dictator, but that transition from his Soviet past was not all that great. Russia has been transformed from a fledgling democracy back into a dictatorship run by the United Russia Party, along with other ultraright parties. The "Z" label is becoming their version of the swastika.
I understand that the Ukrainians joke that the reason the Russians use the 'Z' is that the other half of their swastika got stolen in the warehouse...
 

barbos

Contributor
Joined
Nov 12, 2005
Messages
14,035
Location
Mlky Way galaxy
Basic Beliefs
atheist
Azov nazis blocked at AzovSteel suggested exchanging hostages they are holding for food and medical supplies. Looks like they finally ran out of food.
I say give them some food for a lot of hostages.

Captured ukrainian soldiers complained that javelines and NLAWs were with expired batteries and only 1 in 4 actually worked.
 

bilby

Fair dinkum thinkum
Joined
Mar 7, 2007
Messages
26,790
Location
The Sunshine State: The one with Crocs, not Gators
Gender
He/Him
Basic Beliefs
Strong Atheist
A friend in the Swedish military tells me they have now switched to a stance where war with Russia is likely and inevitable. That's what they are training for. Finland and Sweden were already allied. But now they are having joint excercises. For practical purposes Sweden and Finland now has a single unified army designed with a single purpose, defending against Russian aggression.

I see Sweden and Finland joining NATO ASAP as a given. Once that is final Denmark and Norway will add their troops to the Finish defence. And perhaps more importantly, their money.

Yes, I know, soldiers always assume the worst. It is their job. But the degree to that they take this recent development seriously is pretty scary.

Both world wars went from very peaceful to war in a very short time. Things can quickly spiral out of control
What the hell did the Swedish army think they were training for before? :oops:
They were worried that Norway was looking at them funny.
 

DrZoidberg

Contributor
Joined
Nov 29, 2007
Messages
10,156
Location
Copenhagen
Basic Beliefs
Atheist
DrZoidberg, still think a lot of german words in ukrainian?

You said "German". I didn't. I said "Germanic". It's a big difference between German and Germanic. German, Swedish, Dutch and English are all Germanic languages. Yet, quite distinct. Ukrainian isn't a Germanic language, but has plenty of Germanic words. Something Russian doesn't have.
 

Jimmy Higgins

Contributor
Joined
Feb 1, 2001
Messages
35,577
Basic Beliefs
Calvinistic Atheist
Azov nazis blocked at AzovSteel suggested exchanging hostages they are holding for food and medical supplies.
Unspun:
Russians in negotiations with pepole in AzovSteel because they lack the ability to take facility without serious losses.
Captured ukrainian soldiers complained that javelines and NLAWs were with expired batteries and only 1 in 4 actually worked.
Unspun:
Russia has detained surrendered Ukrainian soldiers.
 

DrZoidberg

Contributor
Joined
Nov 29, 2007
Messages
10,156
Location
Copenhagen
Basic Beliefs
Atheist
The outcome of that battle is what later led to Ukraine being absorbed into Russia.
You sound almost as if Ukraine is a part of Sweden.

I haven't looked this up, but if remember my grade school history correctly Ukraine was allied with Sweden against Russia. It didn't go so well. They were defeated in the same way Napoleon and Germany later were. Scorched earth tactics.
 

Elixir

Made in America
Joined
Sep 23, 2012
Messages
20,068
Location
Mountains
Basic Beliefs
English is complicated
Just imagine if half of them worked.
Zelensky would be presiding over Pootey’s trial by now!
 

steve_bank

Diabetic retinopathy and poor eyesight. Typos ...
Joined
Nov 10, 2017
Messages
9,332
Location
seattle
Basic Beliefs
secular-skeptic
If he declares war Putin can call up the reserves.
 

bilby

Fair dinkum thinkum
Joined
Mar 7, 2007
Messages
26,790
Location
The Sunshine State: The one with Crocs, not Gators
Gender
He/Him
Basic Beliefs
Strong Atheist
If he declares war Putin can call up the reserves.
You've gotta admire the fascist dictators who respect the nuances of constitutional law. Having said that, considering conscripts in Ukraine are currently using Mosin Nagants what are the reserves going to be equipped with? Martini Henrys? Krnkas?
I understand that there are several thousand 'Brown Bess' muskets still in storage at the Tower of London. Perhaps the UK government could donate them to Germany, who could swap them for gas and avoid the embarrassment of sending hard currency to Moscow. ;)
 

Elixir

Made in America
Joined
Sep 23, 2012
Messages
20,068
Location
Mountains
Basic Beliefs
English is complicated
I understand that there are several thousand 'Brown Bess' muskets still in storage at the Tower of London. Perhaps the UK government could donate them to Germany, who could swap them for gas and avoid the embarrassment of sending hard currency to Moscow. ;)
They might as well:

T-90M

Russia has lost one of its most advanced tanks during a battle with Ukrainian forces near Kharkiv. Pictures have emerged of the damaged T-90M, which is built with extra layers of armour and systems designed to protect the vehicle from shells and missile attacks.

"Nice tank you got there ... shame is something should happen to it!" (video)
Yet another victory for Mother Russia! I mean... Ukraine... but that's still Russia, right?
 

DrZoidberg

Contributor
Joined
Nov 29, 2007
Messages
10,156
Location
Copenhagen
Basic Beliefs
Atheist
Captured ukrainian soldiers complained that javelines and NLAWs were with expired batteries and only 1 in 4 actually worked.
So they're kicking your arses with sub-standard weapons?

I wonder how they'll go with top shelf ones.

See you in Moscow!

The Ukraine war has revealed the sorry state the Russian army is in. Rampant corruption has led to even the Russian army being bled dry, so they only have shit weapons. The post WW2 USSR army was also mostly just for show. In hindsight it was complete shit. And Putin hasn't bothered to modernize it. It's a total joke.

A Swedish military analyst made the comment that the reason Russia attacked now, is because he has a window of opportunity if he wants to keep Ukraine under the Russian thumb. It was just a matter of time before Ukraine would have been strong enough to defend itself against Russian aggression. Modern warfare is heavily technological, and Russia's only advantage is the ability to throw endless amount of fresh bodies at the enemy. If the western powers upgrade Ukraine's defenses enough, no amount of fresh bodies are enough to win against Ukraine. It's a decent theory. Does sound a bit like justification after the fact. But it makes sense IMHO.
 

Ford

Contributor
Joined
Nov 30, 2010
Messages
5,619
Location
'Merica
Basic Beliefs
Godless Heathen
Yeah. Hardly surprising. Pentagon denies sharing intel on general officers. But I really wonder.

I heard an interview a few weeks ago with a US military advisor who spent a couple years in Ukraine training their armed forces. It was pretty interesting. First off to realize that the US military was training the Ukrainians, but also what they were helping with. Simply put, the old Soviet command structure that Ukraine was operating under was very, very "top-down." If a colonel saw a vulnerable target in his area and wanted to move against it, he'd have to send his idea all the way up the chain to a general before he would be approved to do something about it. Of course, by the time it went up the food chain and all the way back down, the opportunity would be lost. That's out the window.

The US modernized the Ukrainian command structure (based upon all the hard lessons won in Afghanistan and Iraq) and taught them the value of having local commanders make tactical decisions on the fly. They also trained the Ukrainians in the latest (again, hard-won) urban warfare tactics and what works when you need to defend a city against a vastly superior force. Not saying they anticipated this conflict, but since 2014 when Putin - I mean "pro-Russian separatists" invaded Ukraine, the US has been working hand in hand with them to an extent, and passing along very valuable information.

Yes, the Ukrainian military is very motivated and putting up a helluva fight, but they're fighting not just harder, but smarter. Are they being helped by the US with regards to intelligence? Perhaps. Is the US telling them where the generals are? Gosh, I dunno. But if by chance the Ukrainians find a warship here or a general there, they know what to do with that information.

And now, we return you to Barbos' constant stream of propaganda...
 
  • Like
Reactions: SLD

Harry Bosch

Contributor
Joined
Jul 4, 2014
Messages
5,789
Location
Washington
Basic Beliefs
Atheist

Jarhyn

Wizard
Joined
Mar 29, 2010
Messages
9,052
Gender
No pls.
Basic Beliefs
Natural Philosophy, Game Theoretic Ethicist
How Ukraine Uses Obsolete Soviet Grenades To Destroy Russian Tanks From Above
Soviet-era RKG-3 anti-tank grenades with 3D-printed tail fins attached to stabilize their fall from drones.
View attachment 38447
The fact is, while they can jam the drone's remote control, they can't jam a "held target solution". The idea would be get close enough and then put it on "do the thing mode" where it then goes radio silence and does the thing, exits the radio blackout zone, and then the controller gets it back and it fucks off back home.
 

Copernicus

Industrial Grade Linguist
Joined
May 28, 2017
Messages
3,584
Location
Bellevue, WA
Basic Beliefs
Atheist humanist
How Ukraine Uses Obsolete Soviet Grenades To Destroy Russian Tanks From Above
Soviet-era RKG-3 anti-tank grenades with 3D-printed tail fins attached to stabilize their fall from drones.
View attachment 38447
The fact is, while they can jam the drone's remote control, they can't jam a "held target solution". The idea would be get close enough and then put it on "do the thing mode" where it then goes radio silence and does the thing, exits the radio blackout zone, and then the controller gets it back and it fucks off back home.

The "do the thing mode" is also known as "autonomous mode". The robots used on Martian missions cannot be teleoperated in real time, so they have sophisticated software programs that allow them to operate autonomously after receiving instructions. A lot of advances have been made in the autonomous operation of machinery in the past few decades. What is happening in Ukraine will lead to changes in how drones operate in the future, and I shudder to think of what that will mean for lethal drones that are cut free from control by human teleoperators. Fueled by popular science fiction fantasies, people have a strong tendency to overestimate the intelligence of autonomous operation of machinery.
 

Jarhyn

Wizard
Joined
Mar 29, 2010
Messages
9,052
Gender
No pls.
Basic Beliefs
Natural Philosophy, Game Theoretic Ethicist
How Ukraine Uses Obsolete Soviet Grenades To Destroy Russian Tanks From Above
Soviet-era RKG-3 anti-tank grenades with 3D-printed tail fins attached to stabilize their fall from drones.
View attachment 38447
The fact is, while they can jam the drone's remote control, they can't jam a "held target solution". The idea would be get close enough and then put it on "do the thing mode" where it then goes radio silence and does the thing, exits the radio blackout zone, and then the controller gets it back and it fucks off back home.

The "do the thing mode" is also known as "autonomous mode". The robots used on Martian missions cannot be teleoperated in real time, so they have sophisticated software programs that allow them to operate autonomously after receiving instructions. A lot of advances have been made in the autonomous operation of machinery in the past few decades. What is happening in Ukraine will lead to changes in how drones operate in the future, and I shudder to think of what that will mean for lethal drones that are cut free from control by human teleoperators. Fueled by popular science fiction fantasies, people have a strong tendency to overestimate the intelligence of autonomous operation of machinery.
Well, think what you wish about what is "fiction" and what is "foretelling", I'm merely talking about ballistics solutions, and canned controls like "swoop in on visual structure marked, drop the grenade, pick random direction, Up Up and Away!"

People also overestimate the need for intelligence in certain operations. As long as it's more accurate than lobbing a grenade over a berm after a quarter second glance, it's probably good enough.

I'm not talking about stuffing a whole general intelligence structure in the thing, only a "constant target identifier" and a static scripted action.
 

Copernicus

Industrial Grade Linguist
Joined
May 28, 2017
Messages
3,584
Location
Bellevue, WA
Basic Beliefs
Atheist humanist
...I'm not talking about stuffing a whole general intelligence structure in the thing, only a "constant target identifier" and a static scripted action.

You aren't, but the government is. I've worked in this area before.
 

Harry Bosch

Contributor
Joined
Jul 4, 2014
Messages
5,789
Location
Washington
Basic Beliefs
Atheist
This is good. An interview with Konstantin Kisin about the Russian psyche



If Mr. Kisin is correct, then Russia and China are the dumbest mother fuckers in the history of the planet. To be honest, I don't know who is right yet. But Putin's actions have incredibly strengthened US in Eastern Europe. If Russia truly wanted to hurt the US, they would be nice to their neighbors. Rather than send in troops, tanks and artillery shells, send in economic development. Send in trade. Send in sports teams wanting to compete. Host local arts festivals. Disputes are fine. The US disagrees with Canada on issues all the time. But we don't threaten to bomb the living shit out of them if we don't always get what we want.

Same thing in China. If China truly wanted to separate Taiwan from the US, stop threatening to bomb the living shit out of them all the time! China routinely violates Taiwanese air space with fighter jets.

The real problem with the Kremlin and China is that they don't understand basic human nature.
 
  • Like
Reactions: SLD

SigmatheZeta

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 6, 2021
Messages
546
Gender
she/her
Basic Beliefs
Generally, I am rooted in both ancient Epicurean and ancient Pyrrhonist sentiments, although I am somewhat sympathetic toward the intentions behind ancient Cynicism.
I think the comparison between Mariupol and the Alamo is surprisingly apt. The historical Battle of the Alamo was technically a victory by the Mexican side, but they conducted it with such extreme brutality that they accidentally created the rallying cry, "Remember the Alamo."

By the way, dishonoring the dead is just dumb.

In Chinese history, there is a story of how the philosopher Laozi helped to end a war by suggesting that the victor should honorably bury and mourn the dead, so the defeated enemy would consent to a peaceful surrender. This worked. Because Zong's soldiers took the extra step of honoring the dead, their enemy was given consolation.

The Iliad tells the opposite story but the same lesson. The downfall of Achilles really started when he chose to dishonor the body of his defeated enemy. His luck ran sour. The reason why is that to the ancient Greeks, just like the ancient Chinese, believed that someone that would dishonor the dead is someone that deserves to be defeated.

Brutality has a cost, and when a battle is won with excessive brutality, that is the beginning of a larger defeat.
 

bilby

Fair dinkum thinkum
Joined
Mar 7, 2007
Messages
26,790
Location
The Sunshine State: The one with Crocs, not Gators
Gender
He/Him
Basic Beliefs
Strong Atheist
This is good. An interview with Konstantin Kisin about the Russian psyche



If Mr. Kisin is correct, then Russia and China are the dumbest mother fuckers in the history of the planet. To be honest, I don't know who is right yet. But Putin's actions have incredibly strengthened US in Eastern Europe. If Russia truly wanted to hurt the US, they would be nice to their neighbors. Rather than send in troops, tanks and artillery shells, send in economic development. Send in trade. Send in sports teams wanting to compete. Host local arts festivals. Disputes are fine. The US disagrees with Canada on issues all the time. But we don't threaten to bomb the living shit out of them if we don't always get what we want.

Same thing in China. If China truly wanted to separate Taiwan from the US, stop threatening to bomb the living shit out of them all the time! China routinely violates Taiwanese air space with fighter jets.

The real problem with the Kremlin and China is that they don't understand basic human nature.

The motto oderint dum metuant* has led to the downfall of many tyrants in the two millennia since it was coined by Lucius Accius. Yet it remains inexplicably popular.










*'I smelled stupid when I encountered your mother's sister' - Translation provided by the If Only It Were English automatic translation system.
 

Loren Pechtel

Super Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Sep 16, 2000
Messages
35,727
Location
Nevada
Gender
Yes
Basic Beliefs
Atheist
The "do the thing mode" is also known as "autonomous mode". The robots used on Martian missions cannot be teleoperated in real time, so they have sophisticated software programs that allow them to operate autonomously after receiving instructions. A lot of advances have been made in the autonomous operation of machinery in the past few decades. What is happening in Ukraine will lead to changes in how drones operate in the future, and I shudder to think of what that will mean for lethal drones that are cut free from control by human teleoperators. Fueled by popular science fiction fantasies, people have a strong tendency to overestimate the intelligence of autonomous operation of machinery.
Which is how all current torpedoes and anti-ship missiles work. They have some ability to take commands after launch but will make their own choices other than as directed by their command link (and there isn't always a command link--rocket and aircraft deployed torpedoes have initial orders and that's it.) Likewise the Javelin and Sidewinder missiles--they're shown the target but make their own decisions about what's actually happening as they fly. And the AMRAAM is akin to the anti-ship missiles--it can be told what to do but otherwise does it's own target decisions.
 

Jayjay

Contributor
Joined
Apr 8, 2002
Messages
5,690
Location
Finland
Basic Beliefs
An accurate worldview or philosophy
The "do the thing mode" is also known as "autonomous mode". The robots used on Martian missions cannot be teleoperated in real time, so they have sophisticated software programs that allow them to operate autonomously after receiving instructions. A lot of advances have been made in the autonomous operation of machinery in the past few decades. What is happening in Ukraine will lead to changes in how drones operate in the future, and I shudder to think of what that will mean for lethal drones that are cut free from control by human teleoperators. Fueled by popular science fiction fantasies, people have a strong tendency to overestimate the intelligence of autonomous operation of machinery.
Which is how all current torpedoes and anti-ship missiles work. They have some ability to take commands after launch but will make their own choices other than as directed by their command link (and there isn't always a command link--rocket and aircraft deployed torpedoes have initial orders and that's it.) Likewise the Javelin and Sidewinder missiles--they're shown the target but make their own decisions about what's actually happening as they fly. And the AMRAAM is akin to the anti-ship missiles--it can be told what to do but otherwise does it's own target decisions.
Right. The main difference, and the logical next step, is a drone that can come back after delivering the payload.
 

bilby

Fair dinkum thinkum
Joined
Mar 7, 2007
Messages
26,790
Location
The Sunshine State: The one with Crocs, not Gators
Gender
He/Him
Basic Beliefs
Strong Atheist
The "do the thing mode" is also known as "autonomous mode". The robots used on Martian missions cannot be teleoperated in real time, so they have sophisticated software programs that allow them to operate autonomously after receiving instructions. A lot of advances have been made in the autonomous operation of machinery in the past few decades. What is happening in Ukraine will lead to changes in how drones operate in the future, and I shudder to think of what that will mean for lethal drones that are cut free from control by human teleoperators. Fueled by popular science fiction fantasies, people have a strong tendency to overestimate the intelligence of autonomous operation of machinery.
Which is how all current torpedoes and anti-ship missiles work. They have some ability to take commands after launch but will make their own choices other than as directed by their command link (and there isn't always a command link--rocket and aircraft deployed torpedoes have initial orders and that's it.) Likewise the Javelin and Sidewinder missiles--they're shown the target but make their own decisions about what's actually happening as they fly. And the AMRAAM is akin to the anti-ship missiles--it can be told what to do but otherwise does it's own target decisions.
Right. The main difference, and the logical next step, is a drone that can come back after delivering the payload.
I am unconvinced that a weapon, which by design leads the survivors of the enemy that you just attacked back to your position, is going to be popular with front line soldiers.
 

DrZoidberg

Contributor
Joined
Nov 29, 2007
Messages
10,156
Location
Copenhagen
Basic Beliefs
Atheist
This is good. An interview with Konstantin Kisin about the Russian psyche



If Mr. Kisin is correct, then Russia and China are the dumbest mother fuckers in the history of the planet. To be honest, I don't know who is right yet. But Putin's actions have incredibly strengthened US in Eastern Europe. If Russia truly wanted to hurt the US, they would be nice to their neighbors. Rather than send in troops, tanks and artillery shells, send in economic development. Send in trade. Send in sports teams wanting to compete. Host local arts festivals. Disputes are fine. The US disagrees with Canada on issues all the time. But we don't threaten to bomb the living shit out of them if we don't always get what we want.

Same thing in China. If China truly wanted to separate Taiwan from the US, stop threatening to bomb the living shit out of them all the time! China routinely violates Taiwanese air space with fighter jets.

The real problem with the Kremlin and China is that they don't understand basic human nature.


I think that is a silly way of interpreting. I think we in the west are stupid. We don't understand the recipe for making democracy work. So we keep trying to export it, often with disastrous results. That's what happened in Russia, and why Putin is in power, and why Russians don't trust democracy.

There's so many factors underpinning democracy that we are ignoring.

Here's a wild theory. Viking society had plenty of democratic cultural traditions. After Rome collapsed various Viking groups set themselves up as lords of Western Europe. Essentially these same families still form the elites in the West and still flavour elite society. That could just as well be the reason why democracy has been so successful in the west. Its not impossible.

I think we in the west are incredibly naive and simple-minded about how and why democracy works.
 

Jayjay

Contributor
Joined
Apr 8, 2002
Messages
5,690
Location
Finland
Basic Beliefs
An accurate worldview or philosophy
The "do the thing mode" is also known as "autonomous mode". The robots used on Martian missions cannot be teleoperated in real time, so they have sophisticated software programs that allow them to operate autonomously after receiving instructions. A lot of advances have been made in the autonomous operation of machinery in the past few decades. What is happening in Ukraine will lead to changes in how drones operate in the future, and I shudder to think of what that will mean for lethal drones that are cut free from control by human teleoperators. Fueled by popular science fiction fantasies, people have a strong tendency to overestimate the intelligence of autonomous operation of machinery.
Which is how all current torpedoes and anti-ship missiles work. They have some ability to take commands after launch but will make their own choices other than as directed by their command link (and there isn't always a command link--rocket and aircraft deployed torpedoes have initial orders and that's it.) Likewise the Javelin and Sidewinder missiles--they're shown the target but make their own decisions about what's actually happening as they fly. And the AMRAAM is akin to the anti-ship missiles--it can be told what to do but otherwise does it's own target decisions.
Right. The main difference, and the logical next step, is a drone that can come back after delivering the payload.
I am unconvinced that a weapon, which by design leads the survivors of the enemy that you just attacked back to your position, is going to be popular with front line soldiers.
Maybe you could program it to emit an endearing barking sound when it comes back? :whistle:

The idea isn't to come back to the exact same position though, just to get outside of enemy radio interference so it can be "debriefed" or guided back to be recharged and reused. If there is no radio interference, then there's no reason not to remote control the drone all the way. But on the other hand, there's not much point in sending a drone to shoot a missile at a target and then return, if a smart missile can guide itself to the target anyway.
 

Harry Bosch

Contributor
Joined
Jul 4, 2014
Messages
5,789
Location
Washington
Basic Beliefs
Atheist
This is good. An interview with Konstantin Kisin about the Russian psyche



If Mr. Kisin is correct, then Russia and China are the dumbest mother fuckers in the history of the planet. To be honest, I don't know who is right yet. But Putin's actions have incredibly strengthened US in Eastern Europe. If Russia truly wanted to hurt the US, they would be nice to their neighbors. Rather than send in troops, tanks and artillery shells, send in economic development. Send in trade. Send in sports teams wanting to compete. Host local arts festivals. Disputes are fine. The US disagrees with Canada on issues all the time. But we don't threaten to bomb the living shit out of them if we don't always get what we want.

Same thing in China. If China truly wanted to separate Taiwan from the US, stop threatening to bomb the living shit out of them all the time! China routinely violates Taiwanese air space with fighter jets.

The real problem with the Kremlin and China is that they don't understand basic human nature.


I think that is a silly way of interpreting. I think we in the west are stupid. We don't understand the recipe for making democracy work. So we keep trying to export it, often with disastrous results. That's what happened in Russia, and why Putin is in power, and why Russians don't trust democracy.

There's so many factors underpinning democracy that we are ignoring.

Here's a wild theory. Viking society had plenty of democratic cultural traditions. After Rome collapsed various Viking groups set themselves up as lords of Western Europe. Essentially these same families still form the elites in the West and still flavour elite society. That could just as well be the reason why democracy has been so successful in the west. Its not impossible.

I think we in the west are incredibly naive and simple-minded about how and why democracy works.

Well, you missed my point. Yes, Kisin makes some very good points in the video. But I was laughing at his first point, that Russia is attacking Ukraine in order to get the US out of eastern Europe. If true, Russia is insane. Their actions are doing the absolute opposite. When you bully a country, you are inviting that country to find powerful allies to help you. That's what Russia is doing. They bully other countries then are incredibly surprised when those countries ally with others. Russia dosn't understand very basic human nature.
 

T.G.G. Moogly

Formerly Joedad
Joined
Mar 19, 2001
Messages
8,749
Location
PA USA
Basic Beliefs
egalitarian
I think we in the west are incredibly naive and simple-minded about how and why democracy works.
Maybe some of us have just become complacent. Nations and societies just like businesses can become complacent and fail. Personally I'm big on scientific literacy and I think it and democracy are inseparable. The Greeks were a scientifically literate society that invented democracy. Sure, they venerated gods and could be as superstitious as us but they valued knowledge. They knew that freedom and knowledge were linked. They also knew that ignorance and subjugation were linked.

If you want to see elitism go to Russia or China. Russia is the poster boy for elitism. China is a close second.
 

Loren Pechtel

Super Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Sep 16, 2000
Messages
35,727
Location
Nevada
Gender
Yes
Basic Beliefs
Atheist
The "do the thing mode" is also known as "autonomous mode". The robots used on Martian missions cannot be teleoperated in real time, so they have sophisticated software programs that allow them to operate autonomously after receiving instructions. A lot of advances have been made in the autonomous operation of machinery in the past few decades. What is happening in Ukraine will lead to changes in how drones operate in the future, and I shudder to think of what that will mean for lethal drones that are cut free from control by human teleoperators. Fueled by popular science fiction fantasies, people have a strong tendency to overestimate the intelligence of autonomous operation of machinery.
Which is how all current torpedoes and anti-ship missiles work. They have some ability to take commands after launch but will make their own choices other than as directed by their command link (and there isn't always a command link--rocket and aircraft deployed torpedoes have initial orders and that's it.) Likewise the Javelin and Sidewinder missiles--they're shown the target but make their own decisions about what's actually happening as they fly. And the AMRAAM is akin to the anti-ship missiles--it can be told what to do but otherwise does it's own target decisions.
Right. The main difference, and the logical next step, is a drone that can come back after delivering the payload.
I am unconvinced that a weapon, which by design leads the survivors of the enemy that you just attacked back to your position, is going to be popular with front line soldiers.
It wouldn't have to come back to the guys who fired it, just to some location it could be recovered from. Direct them to return to an empty field.
 

Loren Pechtel

Super Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Sep 16, 2000
Messages
35,727
Location
Nevada
Gender
Yes
Basic Beliefs
Atheist
The idea isn't to come back to the exact same position though, just to get outside of enemy radio interference so it can be "debriefed" or guided back to be recharged and reused. If there is no radio interference, then there's no reason not to remote control the drone all the way. But on the other hand, there's not much point in sending a drone to shoot a missile at a target and then return, if a smart missile can guide itself to the target anyway.
Actually there could be value in that--reducing the range the missile needs. Typically a long range missile uses some form of jet engine. Jet engines are expensive even if they are only going to be used once. Thus you could very well have a system where you replace that with a drone and a solid rocket motor to make the final sprint through the defenses. In many cases speed is of only very minor importance until you get close to your target.
 

Jarhyn

Wizard
Joined
Mar 29, 2010
Messages
9,052
Gender
No pls.
Basic Beliefs
Natural Philosophy, Game Theoretic Ethicist
The "do the thing mode" is also known as "autonomous mode". The robots used on Martian missions cannot be teleoperated in real time, so they have sophisticated software programs that allow them to operate autonomously after receiving instructions. A lot of advances have been made in the autonomous operation of machinery in the past few decades. What is happening in Ukraine will lead to changes in how drones operate in the future, and I shudder to think of what that will mean for lethal drones that are cut free from control by human teleoperators. Fueled by popular science fiction fantasies, people have a strong tendency to overestimate the intelligence of autonomous operation of machinery.
Which is how all current torpedoes and anti-ship missiles work. They have some ability to take commands after launch but will make their own choices other than as directed by their command link (and there isn't always a command link--rocket and aircraft deployed torpedoes have initial orders and that's it.) Likewise the Javelin and Sidewinder missiles--they're shown the target but make their own decisions about what's actually happening as they fly. And the AMRAAM is akin to the anti-ship missiles--it can be told what to do but otherwise does it's own target decisions.
Right. The main difference, and the logical next step, is a drone that can come back after delivering the payload.
I am unconvinced that a weapon, which by design leads the survivors of the enemy that you just attacked back to your position, is going to be popular with front line soldiers.
It wouldn't have to come back to the guys who fired it, just to some location it could be recovered from. Direct them to return to an empty field.
Or direct it back through an ambush zone, and ambush the counter-attackers or trackers

Why just pop a tank when you can get the whole unit to rush into a trap?

I mean hell, you could program the damn thing to fly like it was hit and come down "in a field over there" where snipers are posted with sight lines.

There's a lot of shit you can do to people dumb enough to chase a wisp.

Or put a second grenade on it, pull the pin when motion is detected, then fly away again.

It's just really dumb to chase something you don't understand.
 

DrZoidberg

Contributor
Joined
Nov 29, 2007
Messages
10,156
Location
Copenhagen
Basic Beliefs
Atheist
This is good. An interview with Konstantin Kisin about the Russian psyche



If Mr. Kisin is correct, then Russia and China are the dumbest mother fuckers in the history of the planet. To be honest, I don't know who is right yet. But Putin's actions have incredibly strengthened US in Eastern Europe. If Russia truly wanted to hurt the US, they would be nice to their neighbors. Rather than send in troops, tanks and artillery shells, send in economic development. Send in trade. Send in sports teams wanting to compete. Host local arts festivals. Disputes are fine. The US disagrees with Canada on issues all the time. But we don't threaten to bomb the living shit out of them if we don't always get what we want.

Same thing in China. If China truly wanted to separate Taiwan from the US, stop threatening to bomb the living shit out of them all the time! China routinely violates Taiwanese air space with fighter jets.

The real problem with the Kremlin and China is that they don't understand basic human nature.


I think that is a silly way of interpreting. I think we in the west are stupid. We don't understand the recipe for making democracy work. So we keep trying to export it, often with disastrous results. That's what happened in Russia, and why Putin is in power, and why Russians don't trust democracy.

There's so many factors underpinning democracy that we are ignoring.

Here's a wild theory. Viking society had plenty of democratic cultural traditions. After Rome collapsed various Viking groups set themselves up as lords of Western Europe. Essentially these same families still form the elites in the West and still flavour elite society. That could just as well be the reason why democracy has been so successful in the west. Its not impossible.

I think we in the west are incredibly naive and simple-minded about how and why democracy works.

Well, you missed my point. Yes, Kisin makes some very good points in the video. But I was laughing at his first point, that Russia is attacking Ukraine in order to get the US out of eastern Europe. If true, Russia is insane. Their actions are doing the absolute opposite. When you bully a country, you are inviting that country to find powerful allies to help you. That's what Russia is doing. They bully other countries then are incredibly surprised when those countries ally with others. Russia dosn't understand very basic human nature.


Nations don't act like individual people. You are totally projecting. Treating it like a schoolyard. In International politics might often does make right. The world stood idly by when Russia nabbed Crimea. The rest of the world didn't do anything then. There's no reason to think that the west had grown any balls by now.

There's also the problem of European laziness following WW2. After WW2 USA became the world police supported by France and Germany. This made European countries lazy. NATO is basically a "daddy is going to fix it"-alliance. One of Trump's few accurate complaints. Or to put in human cost numbers. The reason Americans die earlier than Europeans is because a lot of money that could have gone to healthcare for the poor instead goes to weapons, for the benefit of the entire free world. Why would American voters put up with this? Well, they're increasingly not.

When Russia attacks something, European eyes turn to daddy, and if daddy doesn't commit troops, Europeans do nothing. At most European nations will act as a supporting force to American troops. This has got to change. Europeans have got to start acting like masters of their own house and stop being so dependent on USA. Which means investing in defense. That's only started happening after Russia's invasion of Ukraine.

I believe that if Russia had been successful in rapidly taking Kiev, replacing Zemenskyy with a puppet, Europe would have gone back to sleep (like we did after Russia took Crimea). What's prompted defense investment in Europe is the lack of progress in Russia. The reason for this, I think is, hope. Before Russia's failure in Ukraine European nations lacked confidence they were able to fight Russia. Now they're starting to grow the fuck up. To get some balls.
 
Last edited:

bilby

Fair dinkum thinkum
Joined
Mar 7, 2007
Messages
26,790
Location
The Sunshine State: The one with Crocs, not Gators
Gender
He/Him
Basic Beliefs
Strong Atheist
The idea isn't to come back to the exact same position though, just to get outside of enemy radio interference so it can be "debriefed" or guided back to be recharged and reused. If there is no radio interference, then there's no reason not to remote control the drone all the way. But on the other hand, there's not much point in sending a drone to shoot a missile at a target and then return, if a smart missile can guide itself to the target anyway.
Actually there could be value in that--reducing the range the missile needs. Typically a long range missile uses some form of jet engine. Jet engines are expensive even if they are only going to be used once. Thus you could very well have a system where you replace that with a drone and a solid rocket motor to make the final sprint through the defenses. In many cases speed is of only very minor importance until you get close to your target.
Pulse jets are dirt cheap.

A metal tube, wider at the front than at the back, with a nozzle to spray gasoline into it, and a spark plug and a catapult to get it started. The spark plug isn't even needed in flight, so it only needs a tiny, short-lived power source - or you can arrange ignition at the launch site and dispense with even that component.

Engines don't get easier or cheaper to build.
 

DrZoidberg

Contributor
Joined
Nov 29, 2007
Messages
10,156
Location
Copenhagen
Basic Beliefs
Atheist
I think we in the west are incredibly naive and simple-minded about how and why democracy works.
Maybe some of us have just become complacent. Nations and societies just like businesses can become complacent and fail. Personally I'm big on scientific literacy and I think it and democracy are inseparable. The Greeks were a scientifically literate society that invented democracy. Sure, they venerated gods and could be as superstitious as us but they valued knowledge. They knew that freedom and knowledge were linked. They also knew that ignorance and subjugation were linked.

If you want to see elitism go to Russia or China. Russia is the poster boy for elitism. China is a close second.

I agree that scientific literacy, or rather education and scientific methodology, is the key to success. To continually re-evaluate how things have been going and fix it for the future. I think you are ignoring what a watershed moment the shift from paganism to Christianity was. In Greek society the guiding principle was something called "pleonachos tropos". Ie, "multiplicity of explanations". It was also the guiding principle of pre-Christian Roman society, and they kept using the Greek term for it. It's the idea that you can describe the same thing in different ways. How you describe something will shift depending on perspective or frame of mind. They saw the religious frame of mind different from the scientific frame of mind, and they didn't place one over the other. That's why a pagan can simultaneously believe in God and be an atheist. Within paganism there was no conflict. Hinduism works the same way. You can be Advaita (an atheist Hindu). When we became Christian, only one narrative was permitted. That's why when Christians deconvert and become atheists they often feel they need to break with the church all together. But that's just them continuing to think like Christians. Scientism is Christian thinking blindly applied to scientific thinking. Christianity's extreme intolerance of alternative narratives is weird. It makes us shallow, stupid, intolerant and ignorant. I'd say it's the single most defining feature of Christianity.

I think you are right in that China is elitist. But it's not elitist in the way Medieval Europe was, where your lineage was all that mattered. China is deeply Confucian and has been for millennia. Ie Meritocratic to an extreme degree. It doesn't matter how fancy family you belong to, if you can't pass the very hard academic tests fair and square, you are out. This is why China, historically, has been a superpower. If you are born into the Chinese elite you are going to have to work extremely hard to stay there.

Russian elitism is similar in the sense that it really is "might makes right". Be strong or get broken. It's a brutal way to organize society. But it works.
 

DrZoidberg

Contributor
Joined
Nov 29, 2007
Messages
10,156
Location
Copenhagen
Basic Beliefs
Atheist
In his May the seventh speech Putin manages, somehow, to blame the west for him attacking Ukraine. This is so weird. It's like an abusive husband trying to defend why he's been beating his wife by blaming the annoying neighbour. How does this make sense to anyone? Barbos, can you explain the logic behind this? I don't get it.

 

Jayjay

Contributor
Joined
Apr 8, 2002
Messages
5,690
Location
Finland
Basic Beliefs
An accurate worldview or philosophy
In his May the seventh speech Putin manages, somehow, to blame the west for him attacking Ukraine. This is so weird. It's like an abusive husband trying to defend why he's been beating his wife by blaming the annoying neighbour. How does this make sense to anyone? Barbos, can you explain the logic behind this? I don't get it.

The logic is that Putin can spout of any bullshit he wants, and he'll be proven right after he wins. Might makes right.

The moral bankruptcy of Russia is clear to anyone, but in the end the war isn't about moral victory, it's about military victory. And Russia seems to be edging towards that, albeit slowly. This weekend they captured Popasna and are close to cutting off Ukrainian supply lines to Severodonetsk. Russia is also preparing an attack from Kherson. Ukraine has been able to block Russia in some places, like Izyum, but it isn't in a position to do counter-attacks yet.
 

Hermit

Cantankerous grump
Joined
Nov 14, 2017
Messages
1,237
Location
Ignore list
The reason Americans die earlier than Europeans is because a lot of money that could have gone to healthcare for the poor instead goes to weapons, for the benefit of the entire free world.
The entire free world may benefit from the USA's policy of maintaining a military juggernaut rather than using the money to healthcare of the poor is not motivated by defending the free world against the threats of evil powers. It is motivated by defending economic interests, specifically the economic interests of the elite.
 

DrZoidberg

Contributor
Joined
Nov 29, 2007
Messages
10,156
Location
Copenhagen
Basic Beliefs
Atheist
I think we in the west are incredibly naive and simple-minded about how and why democracy works.
Maybe some of us have just become complacent. Nations and societies just like businesses can become complacent and fail. Personally I'm big on scientific literacy and I think it and democracy are inseparable. The Greeks were a scientifically literate society that invented democracy. Sure, they venerated gods and could be as superstitious as us but they valued knowledge. They knew that freedom and knowledge were linked. They also knew that ignorance and subjugation were linked.

If you want to see elitism go to Russia or China. Russia is the poster boy for elitism. China is a close second.

I agree that scientific literacy is important for democracy. But it's more than just science. It's a way of thinking. To continuously re-examine ones beliefs and strategies and adapt. Something which Christianity, has always, strongly opposed. The European enlightenment, was to a large extent, a European reaction against the stranglehold of the church on any free thought. The relative academic free thought of the Post-Roman monastic world was only a thing because of the strong Roman and Greek pagan heritage. When Christianity was introduced into Northern European countries that had never been Roman, and had never had an academic tradition, the result became an incredibly suffocating intellectual climate. What the Catholic church has going for it, is the nudge, nudge, wink, double standards, we all know, existed. Protestantism has none of that. It became the death of thought.

China is deeply Confucian and has been for millennia. Ie Meritocratic to an extreme degree. It doesn't matter how fancy family you belong to, if you can't pass the very hard academic tests fair and square, you are out.

Russia is a nation born on the steppes of Asia. A place where being extremely aggressive was necessary to survive at all. It also got utterly devastated by the, anti-intellectual, Mongols. I think Russia is what you get when a people ends up on top after living through extreme hardship.
 
Top Bottom