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Russian Invasion of Ukraine - tactics and logistics

DrZoidberg

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The reason Americans die earlier than Europeans is because a lot of money that could have gone to healthcare for the poor instead goes to weapons, for the benefit of the entire free world.
The entire free world may benefit from the USA's policy of maintaining a military juggernaut rather than using the money to healthcare of the poor is not motivated by defending the free world against the threats of evil powers. It is motivated by defending economic interests, specifically the economic interests of the elite.

Sure. These are not mutually exclusive. If American military expenditure didn't also aid the elites of USA, they of course wouldn't bother.
 

T.G.G. Moogly

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In his May the seventh speech Putin manages, somehow, to blame the west for him attacking Ukraine. This is so weird. It's like an abusive husband trying to defend why he's been beating his wife by blaming the annoying neighbour. How does this make sense to anyone? Barbos, can you explain the logic behind this? I don't get it.

The logic is that Putin can spout of any bullshit he wants, and he'll be proven right after he wins. Might makes right.

The moral bankruptcy of Russia is clear to anyone, but in the end the war isn't about moral victory, it's about military victory. And Russia seems to be edging towards that, albeit slowly. This weekend they captured Popasna and are close to cutting off Ukrainian supply lines to Severodonetsk. Russia is also preparing an attack from Kherson. Ukraine has been able to block Russia in some places, like Izyum, but it isn't in a position to do counter-attacks yet.
The Russian Hitler says he's fighting for the motherland. Pure crock of shit. he's fighting for Putinland, if anything. Fact is he isn't fighting at all. If he was fighting he'd be dead already.

The U.S. and Ukraine are doing well militarily and politically. I don't think Putin can maintain the battle, however long it drags on. Either he will be dead or he will be out of power. I certainly hope Ukraine regains all of its territory or is compensated for it financially if Putin keeps it. If he doesn't pay for it then Ukraine has every right to fight a protracted guerilla war, and will.
 

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An intercepted phone call between a Russian soldier and his mother describing the tortures he's inflicted on Ukrainians.

Not for the squeamish.
 

ZiprHead

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Someone launched a bio-weapon into the Russian embassy in Finland. They dumped a can of surströmming into the courtyard.
 

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Hopefully the tide will soon turn in Eastern Ukraine. Didn't someone hearld the drying out of Ukrainian soil so Russian tanks could better move forward? But it's my understanding the Ukrainians have more tanks than the Russians now. I guess the soil is just as dry if they need to move back.

The Howitzers are in. The Ukrainian army is studiously training in Germany and going back to train others in their use. The fucking things probably have SAE fasteners. I hope Ukrainians can pick up on fractions (America's secret weapon) well enough.

Biden signed the Lend/Lease Act today. Armament aplenty. And not just for Ukraine.

And Russia has pretty much run out of professional soldiers. And should be running out of a lot of stuff that came to a halt a couple months ago.
Everything going forward is going to be politically painful for Putin and economically so for the billionaires who have fleeced Russian society over the years.

And soon Finland's armed forces and Sweden's boy scout troop should officially request to join the club.
 

steve_bank

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It is said they are running low on guided missiles.

In the end in WWII Germany and Japan could not hope to match the economic capacity of the Allies.
 

Copernicus

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Russia has stepped up its cruel, cowardly missile attacks against the citizens and historic city of Odesa, a very Russian-speaking city. Somehow, these cruise missiles are only supposed to kill the families of russophobic Ukrainian Nazi "Banderites", who are trying to oppress Russian-speaking Ukrainians. So many of the cities being leveled are former "hero cities" of the Soviet Union, and the people being destroyed are descendants of those who fought in the Great Patriotic War against Nazi Germany. This took place on a day all over Russia that was devoted to celebrating the surrender of Nazi Germany.

Odesa under further missile attacks

 

steve_bank

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Putin my be the next Saddam Hussein.
Or Mussolini. He ended up dead hanging naked from his feet by the Italian people.

I wonder if Putin is incompetent or has reduced mental capacity and does not know the specifics of what the military is doing. Either that or he is a vicious psychopath killer.
 

Jayjay

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Putin my be the next Saddam Hussein.
Or Mussolini. He ended up dead hanging naked from his feet by the Italian people.

I wonder if Putin is incompetent or has reduced mental capacity and does not know the specifics of what the military is doing. Either that or he is a vicious psychopath killer.
I heard there is a video of Putin in his St. Petersburg city administration days commenting on crime problem in the city. His solution was that if criminals kill a police officer, the police should round up and execute two criminals.

True or not, that sums up his outlook. Not sure if it makes him a psychopath, probably not, but to him deaths are just numbers.
 

Jayjay

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Putin my be the next Saddam Hussein.
Hopefully the tide will soon turn in Eastern Ukraine. Didn't someone hearld the drying out of Ukrainian soil so Russian tanks could better move forward? But it's my understanding the Ukrainians have more tanks than the Russians now. I guess the soil is just as dry if they need to move back.

The Howitzers are in. The Ukrainian army is studiously training in Germany and going back to train others in their use. The fucking things probably have SAE fasteners. I hope Ukrainians can pick up on fractions (America's secret weapon) well enough.

Biden signed the Lend/Lease Act today. Armament aplenty. And not just for Ukraine.

And Russia has pretty much run out of professional soldiers. And should be running out of a lot of stuff that came to a halt a couple months ago.
Everything going forward is going to be politically painful for Putin and economically so for the billionaires who have fleeced Russian society over the years.

And soon Finland's armed forces and Sweden's boy scout troop should officially request to join the club.
It is said they are running low on guided missiles.

In the end in WWII Germany and Japan could not hope to match the economic capacity of the Allies.

I think your optimism is misplaced. Russia is shooting guided missiles at Odessa every day. And other cities as well. Doesn't seem like they're running out. Meanwhile, Ukraine is having severe shortage of fuel. It's civilian economy is on the brink of collapse. I don't think a few Howitzers will help.

Putin is not going to face justice for his crimes.
 

Copernicus

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For those who feel that Putin may somehow be out of the loop on what is happening in Ukraine, let's not forget the  Russian apartment bombings, which Putin used to catapult himself into power. Even Biden was pretty clear that he knew that Putin was a killer. It doesn't take a "genius" like Trump to figure out that Putin does not have an ounce of compassion for those countless numbers of people from all walks of life whose lives he has destroyed. He isn't just a psychopath. He is a sociopath. He will kill his own people without a second thought, and it is easy for him to order the mass murder of innocent civilians who happen to be living in a country that so publicly rejected his rule in a historic revolt against the leader he managed to help install in power. The Ukrainians humiliated him in 2014, and he has been after his revenge against them ever since that watershed rebellion.
 

Jayjay

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For those who feel that Putin may somehow be out of the loop on what is happening in Ukraine, let's not forget the  Russian apartment bombings, which Putin used to catapult himself into power. Even Biden was pretty clear that he knew that Putin was a killer. It doesn't take a "genius" like Trump to figure out that Putin does not have an ounce of compassion for those countless numbers of people from all walks of life whose lives he has destroyed. He isn't just a psychopath. He is a sociopath. He will kill his own people without a second thought, and it is easy for him to order the mass murder of innocent civilians who happen to be living in a country that so publicly rejected his rule in a historic revolt against the leader he managed to help install in power. The Ukrainians humiliated him in 2014, and he has been after his revenge against them ever since that watershed rebellion.
Exactly. He's a petty man who holds a grudge. This is also why Zelensky will have to watch over his back for the rest of his life. Ukraine is a country, an abstract entity, but Zelensky is a person who, by not running away, rallying the western leaders, and by beating Putin in the information warfare almost daily, is someone who Putin could hold personally responsible for this whole mess. Even if Putin were to die, I'm sure he'll give orders to FSB or GRU to keep Zelensky on top of their kill list.
 

DrZoidberg

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Putin my be the next Saddam Hussein.
Or Mussolini. He ended up dead hanging naked from his feet by the Italian people.

I wonder if Putin is incompetent or has reduced mental capacity and does not know the specifics of what the military is doing. Either that or he is a vicious psychopath killer.
I heard there is a video of Putin in his St. Petersburg city administration days commenting on crime problem in the city. His solution was that if criminals kill a police officer, the police should round up and execute two criminals.

True or not, that sums up his outlook. Not sure if it makes him a psychopath, probably not, but to him deaths are just numbers.
This is the reason organised crime isn't a problem in fascist countries.
 

Copernicus

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Putin my be the next Saddam Hussein.
Or Mussolini. He ended up dead hanging naked from his feet by the Italian people.

I wonder if Putin is incompetent or has reduced mental capacity and does not know the specifics of what the military is doing. Either that or he is a vicious psychopath killer.
I heard there is a video of Putin in his St. Petersburg city administration days commenting on crime problem in the city. His solution was that if criminals kill a police officer, the police should round up and execute two criminals.

True or not, that sums up his outlook. Not sure if it makes him a psychopath, probably not, but to him deaths are just numbers.
This is the reason organised crime isn't a problem in fascist countries.

But you do realize that organized crime in Russia is a very state-run enterprise, don't you? This bond between the government and criminals went back to the Soviet era, when the Communist Party spawned a huge underground economy by suppressing the ability of citizens to engage in private enterprise legally. The Black Market became a fact of life for those who had to endure decades of an incompetent "planned economy" that simply had no idea of how to plan an economy. The KGB itself became instrumental in smuggling Western goods into Russia for very lucrative profit. They were the ones who had the opportunity to engage in foreign travel, so they had access to the source. In modern Russia, the security services no longer have that kind of monopoly, but criminals with connections are often given license to operate internationally, if they leave Russian enterprises alone. The Russian government finds organized crime a useful tool.
 

DrZoidberg

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Putin my be the next Saddam Hussein.
Or Mussolini. He ended up dead hanging naked from his feet by the Italian people.

I wonder if Putin is incompetent or has reduced mental capacity and does not know the specifics of what the military is doing. Either that or he is a vicious psychopath killer.
I heard there is a video of Putin in his St. Petersburg city administration days commenting on crime problem in the city. His solution was that if criminals kill a police officer, the police should round up and execute two criminals.

True or not, that sums up his outlook. Not sure if it makes him a psychopath, probably not, but to him deaths are just numbers.
This is the reason organised crime isn't a problem in fascist countries.

But you do realize that organized crime in Russia is a very state-run enterprise, don't you? This bond between the government and criminals went back to the Soviet era, when the Communist Party spawned a huge underground economy by suppressing the ability of citizens to engage in private enterprise legally. The Black Market became a fact of life for those who had to endure decades of an incompetent "planned economy" that simply had no idea of how to plan an economy. The KGB itself became instrumental in smuggling Western goods into Russia for very lucrative profit. They were the ones who had the opportunity to engage in foreign travel, so they had access to the source. In modern Russia, the security services no longer have that kind of monopoly, but criminals with connections are often given license to operate internationally, if they leave Russian enterprises alone. The Russian government finds organized crime a useful tool.

Yes. A fascist government behaves themselves as a maffia. That's why. No maffia wants competition, and with the resources of a national government behind it, and no ethics to take into consideration, crushing ones enemies is easy. The Russian maffia had been allied to the Soviet government since Brezhnev. If I remember my contemporary Russian history correctly, when the USSR collapsed and the Yeltsin government sold out the state companies they prevented foreigners to buy controlling shares of Russian companies. Since the only people who had any money at that point where the maffia, the Russian maffia became part of the Russian elite. The ruling class of Russia today are ex-KGB officers in alliance with maffia funded oligarchs.
 

steve_bank

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A western form of liberal democracy does not appear possible for Russia.

Stating what has been widely reported for years, Putin and his government is a criminal enterprise. In the news stolen Ukrainian wheat is showing up in the Mediterranean region. Imagine Trump with the dictatorial powers he wanted.

Putin came out of nowhere in becoming the head of Russia. His primary qualification was being reliable in not prosecuting Boris Yeltsin and his family for corruption.
 

T.G.G. Moogly

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But you do realize that organized crime in Russia is a very state-run enterprise, don't you? This bond between the government and criminals went back to the Soviet era, when the Communist Party spawned a huge underground economy by suppressing the ability of citizens to engage in private enterprise legally. The Black Market became a fact of life for those who had to endure decades of an incompetent "planned economy" that simply had no idea of how to plan an economy. The KGB itself became instrumental in smuggling Western goods into Russia for very lucrative profit. They were the ones who had the opportunity to engage in foreign travel, so they had access to the source. In modern Russia, the security services no longer have that kind of monopoly, but criminals with connections are often given license to operate internationally, if they leave Russian enterprises alone. The Russian government finds organized crime a useful tool.
Case in point:

Six figures with ties to the Kremlin have died since Vladimir Putin launched Ukraine war

And that figure does not include the family members, wives, children. Clearly these deaths are not murder suicides, particularly when there are no finger prints on the murder weapons or blood spatter on the oligarch who hanged himself after hacking his two daughters to death. No prints on the gun when he shot himself. This is Putin's world. It's Hitler's world.
 

ZiprHead

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A western form of liberal democracy does not appear possible for Russia.

Stating what has been widely reported for years, Putin and his government is a criminal enterprise. In the news stolen Ukrainian wheat is showing up in the Mediterranean region. Imagine Trump with the dictatorial powers he wanted.

Putin came out of nowhere in becoming the head of Russia. His primary qualification was being reliable in not prosecuting Boris Yeltsin and his family for corruption.
Putin ran on a campaign of anti-corruption. He was supported by many westerners because of that.

Then he put the first corrupt oligarch in the stocks and scared the crap out of the rest of them. How do we stay on your good side, Mr. Putin? they asked. 50 percent was the answer. Give me my 50% cut and all will be good.
 

Jayjay

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It's often difficult to tell what information sources are reliable and what are not. Vladimir from Moscow has some tips for the rest of us how to solve this dilemma:



:unsure: The interviewer agrees, so there has to be something to it...
 

Tigers!

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A western form of liberal democracy does not appear possible for Russia.
To be fair, a western form of liberal democracy doesn't appear possible for the USA, either. Just ask the Supreme Court. Or President-elect Gore.
Despite that the flow of people is very much to USA and not to Russia so it appears there is a little something the yanks might be getting right.
 

bilby

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A western form of liberal democracy does not appear possible for Russia.
To be fair, a western form of liberal democracy doesn't appear possible for the USA, either. Just ask the Supreme Court. Or President-elect Gore.
Despite that the flow of people is very much to USA and not to Russia so it appears there is a little something the yanks might be getting right.
Sure. But there's also a massive flow of people to Shanghai today, and there was a massive flow of people to the almost entirely lawless goldfields regions of Australia and California on the 1800s; so it appears that western liberal democracy isn't as attractive as money.
 

Tigers!

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A western form of liberal democracy does not appear possible for Russia.
To be fair, a western form of liberal democracy doesn't appear possible for the USA, either. Just ask the Supreme Court. Or President-elect Gore.
Despite that the flow of people is very much to USA and not to Russia so it appears there is a little something the yanks might be getting right.
Sure. But there's also a massive flow of people to Shanghai today, and there was a massive flow of people to the almost entirely lawless goldfields regions of Australia and California on the 1800s; so it appears that western liberal democracy isn't as attractive as money.
Is the flow of people to Shanghai internal i.e. Chinese or external i.e. non-Chinese? If largely internal then that does not mean much when we are talking of external people moving.
I do not dispute that money is an attractive force but it only takes you so far. If you are in place where you are repressed or unable to live your life then a place that seems to offer that will be attractive to many, even if not financially alluring.
 

SLD

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From ISW:

“Russian forces continue to face widespread force generation challenges. A senior US defense official stated on May 9 that the US has not observed any indicators of a “new major Russian mobilization” and that members of the private military company Wagner Group “urgently” requested hundreds of thousands of additional troops to reinforce Russian efforts in Donbas. The official noted that Russia currently has 97 battalion tactical groups (BTGs) in Ukraine, but that BTGs have been moving in and out of Ukraine to refit and resupply, suggesting that Russian troops continue to sustain substantial damage in combat. ISW has previously assessed that most Russian BTGs are heavily degraded and counting BTGs is not a useful metric of Russian combat power. The Main Ukrainian Intelligence Directorate (GUR) claimed that under-trained, ill-equipped Russian conscripts are still being sent into active combat despite the Kremlin denying this practice. A prisoner of war from the BARS-7 detachment of the Wagner Group claimed that a ”covert mobilization” is underway in Russian to send conscripts to clean damage caused by combat in the self-proclaimed Donetsk and Luhansk People’s Republics.”

It’s a stalemate. Nothing much is happening besides the counteroffensive by Ukraine around Kharkiv. That’s tying up Russian troops and preventing further actions. The Ukrainians are getting stronger. Their troops are now battle hardened and highly motivated. Russian troops are demoralized and don’t want to be there. They can’t be expected to do much and lack any initiative to take the fight to the enemy. They can probably be compelled to stand their ground, but after some point they may not even do that.
 

bilby

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A western form of liberal democracy does not appear possible for Russia.
To be fair, a western form of liberal democracy doesn't appear possible for the USA, either. Just ask the Supreme Court. Or President-elect Gore.
Despite that the flow of people is very much to USA and not to Russia so it appears there is a little something the yanks might be getting right.
Sure. But there's also a massive flow of people to Shanghai today, and there was a massive flow of people to the almost entirely lawless goldfields regions of Australia and California on the 1800s; so it appears that western liberal democracy isn't as attractive as money.
Is the flow of people to Shanghai internal i.e. Chinese or external i.e. non-Chinese? If largely internal then that does not mean much when we are talking of external people moving.
I do not dispute that money is an attractive force but it only takes you so far. If you are in place where you are repressed or unable to live your life then a place that seems to offer that will be attractive to many, even if not financially alluring.
That's a lovely hypothesis.

Have you any evidence that it's true?
 

Loren Pechtel

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A western form of liberal democracy does not appear possible for Russia.
To be fair, a western form of liberal democracy doesn't appear possible for the USA, either. Just ask the Supreme Court. Or President-elect Gore.
Despite that the flow of people is very much to USA and not to Russia so it appears there is a little something the yanks might be getting right.
Sure. But there's also a massive flow of people to Shanghai today, and there was a massive flow of people to the almost entirely lawless goldfields regions of Australia and California on the 1800s; so it appears that western liberal democracy isn't as attractive as money.
Ever consider that it was the gold, not the government that attracted them?
 

Tigers!

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A western form of liberal democracy does not appear possible for Russia.
To be fair, a western form of liberal democracy doesn't appear possible for the USA, either. Just ask the Supreme Court. Or President-elect Gore.
Despite that the flow of people is very much to USA and not to Russia so it appears there is a little something the yanks might be getting right.
Sure. But there's also a massive flow of people to Shanghai today, and there was a massive flow of people to the almost entirely lawless goldfields regions of Australia and California on the 1800s; so it appears that western liberal democracy isn't as attractive as money.
Is the flow of people to Shanghai internal i.e. Chinese or external i.e. non-Chinese? If largely internal then that does not mean much when we are talking of external people moving.
I do not dispute that money is an attractive force but it only takes you so far. If you are in place where you are repressed or unable to live your life then a place that seems to offer that will be attractive to many, even if not financially alluring.
That's a lovely hypothesis.

Have you any evidence that it's true?
Evidence what is true? People movement to Shanghai or the fact that the USA/Commonwealth/ Europe gets lots of people going there as immigrants?
 

bilby

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A western form of liberal democracy does not appear possible for Russia.
To be fair, a western form of liberal democracy doesn't appear possible for the USA, either. Just ask the Supreme Court. Or President-elect Gore.
Despite that the flow of people is very much to USA and not to Russia so it appears there is a little something the yanks might be getting right.
Sure. But there's also a massive flow of people to Shanghai today, and there was a massive flow of people to the almost entirely lawless goldfields regions of Australia and California on the 1800s; so it appears that western liberal democracy isn't as attractive as money.
Is the flow of people to Shanghai internal i.e. Chinese or external i.e. non-Chinese? If largely internal then that does not mean much when we are talking of external people moving.
I do not dispute that money is an attractive force but it only takes you so far. If you are in place where you are repressed or unable to live your life then a place that seems to offer that will be attractive to many, even if not financially alluring.
That's a lovely hypothesis.

Have you any evidence that it's true?
Evidence what is true? People movement to Shanghai or the fact that the USA/Commonwealth/ Europe gets lots of people going there as immigrants?
That money isn't the primary driver of voluntary migration.

People move away from danger, and/or towards money.

There's no need to invoke democracy as a driving force.
 

Hermit

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A western form of liberal democracy does not appear possible for Russia.
To be fair, a western form of liberal democracy doesn't appear possible for the USA, either. Just ask the Supreme Court. Or President-elect Gore.
Despite that the flow of people is very much to USA and not to Russia so it appears there is a little something the yanks might be getting right.
Sure. But there's also a massive flow of people to Shanghai today, and there was a massive flow of people to the almost entirely lawless goldfields regions of Australia and California on the 1800s; so it appears that western liberal democracy isn't as attractive as money.
Ever consider that it was the gold, not the government that attracted them?
Yes. Money.

In the US it's the green card. It's pretty much why Rupert Murdoch became a US citizen.
 

DrZoidberg

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A western form of liberal democracy does not appear possible for Russia.
To be fair, a western form of liberal democracy doesn't appear possible for the USA, either. Just ask the Supreme Court. Or President-elect Gore.
Despite that the flow of people is very much to USA and not to Russia so it appears there is a little something the yanks might be getting right.
Sure. But there's also a massive flow of people to Shanghai today, and there was a massive flow of people to the almost entirely lawless goldfields regions of Australia and California on the 1800s; so it appears that western liberal democracy isn't as attractive as money.
Is the flow of people to Shanghai internal i.e. Chinese or external i.e. non-Chinese? If largely internal then that does not mean much when we are talking of external people moving.
I do not dispute that money is an attractive force but it only takes you so far. If you are in place where you are repressed or unable to live your life then a place that seems to offer that will be attractive to many, even if not financially alluring.

I don't think people care that much about personal liberty compared to wealth and personal security.

But democracy tends to lead to wealth and personal security. That's why people like it and the world drifts in that direction.

Like my brother's Chinese wife said, as long as the Chinese economy is growing the Chinese communist party has nothing to fear from the people.
 

bilby

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A western form of liberal democracy does not appear possible for Russia.
To be fair, a western form of liberal democracy doesn't appear possible for the USA, either. Just ask the Supreme Court. Or President-elect Gore.
Despite that the flow of people is very much to USA and not to Russia so it appears there is a little something the yanks might be getting right.
Sure. But there's also a massive flow of people to Shanghai today, and there was a massive flow of people to the almost entirely lawless goldfields regions of Australia and California on the 1800s; so it appears that western liberal democracy isn't as attractive as money.
Ever consider that it was the gold, not the government that attracted them?
Well, that is my entire argument here, but seeing as you ask, no, I had never for an instant considered that I might be correct :rolleyesa:
 

TV and credit cards

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A western form of liberal democracy does not appear possible for Russia.
To be fair, a western form of liberal democracy doesn't appear possible for the USA, either. Just ask the Supreme Court. Or President-elect Gore.
Despite that the flow of people is very much to USA and not to Russia so it appears there is a little something the yanks might be getting right.
Sure. But there's also a massive flow of people to Shanghai today, and there was a massive flow of people to the almost entirely lawless goldfields regions of Australia and California on the 1800s; so it appears that western liberal democracy isn't as attractive as money.
Is the flow of people to Shanghai internal i.e. Chinese or external i.e. non-Chinese? If largely internal then that does not mean much when we are talking of external people moving.
I do not dispute that money is an attractive force but it only takes you so far. If you are in place where you are repressed or unable to live your life then a place that seems to offer that will be attractive to many, even if not financially alluring.

I don't think people care that

But democracy tends to lead to wealth and personal security. That's why people like it and the world drifts in that direction.

Like my brother's Chinese wife said, as long as the Chinese economy is growing the Chinese communist party has nothing to fear from the people.
Well the Chinese people hardly know what they are missing now do they? I mean if you are starting from a point of poverty under the thumb of an authoritarian regime and are now given the opportunity to make a little money and have a few nice things under that same authoritarian regime, you’re going to think life is great.

It all depends on your reference point.
 

DrZoidberg

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A western form of liberal democracy does not appear possible for Russia.
To be fair, a western form of liberal democracy doesn't appear possible for the USA, either. Just ask the Supreme Court. Or President-elect Gore.
Despite that the flow of people is very much to USA and not to Russia so it appears there is a little something the yanks might be getting right.
Sure. But there's also a massive flow of people to Shanghai today, and there was a massive flow of people to the almost entirely lawless goldfields regions of Australia and California on the 1800s; so it appears that western liberal democracy isn't as attractive as money.
Is the flow of people to Shanghai internal i.e. Chinese or external i.e. non-Chinese? If largely internal then that does not mean much when we are talking of external people moving.
I do not dispute that money is an attractive force but it only takes you so far. If you are in place where you are repressed or unable to live your life then a place that seems to offer that will be attractive to many, even if not financially alluring.

I don't think people care that

But democracy tends to lead to wealth and personal security. That's why people like it and the world drifts in that direction.

Like my brother's Chinese wife said, as long as the Chinese economy is growing the Chinese communist party has nothing to fear from the people.
Well the Chinese people hardly know what they are missing now do they? I mean if you are starting from a point of poverty under the thumb of an authoritarian regime and are now given the opportunity to make a little money and have a few nice things under that same authoritarian regime, you’re going to think life is great.

It all depends on your reference point.
They have Internet. We live in a global world now. There's no difference between what information people in different countries have access to. They know the same things as us. They just draw different conclusions based on those same facts.

We are all influenced by the culture of where we live. All of us. We all have unsupported beliefs we cling to because people around us think in the same way. That is what makes us different.
 

steve_bank

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China has a middle class and is not a nation of poor peasants anymore. From a news segment they have gone electronic, no paper currency. China is very much a modern state.

From analysis I listened to Chinese leadership is sensitive to the opinions. People are happy as long as they see progress. The expectation that your kids will fare better than you did.

China has an entirely differnt cultural history and foundation then the west. They do not have our hyper individualism. They are npot uncomfortable with authoritarian leadership as long as it works out for them.

Here in the USA the waelth disparity is getting destructive and security is diminishing. It has not been democracy per se, it has been laissez faire wide open free market economic that created wealth.
 

bilby

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China has a middle class and is not a nation of poor peasants anymore. From a news segment they have gone electronic, no paper currency.
You desperately need to stop believing the nonsense your "news segments" feed you.

No modern nation has gone over to an entirely electronic system of money, and China isn't even close to being able to make such a transition.

They likely have a plan to do so, but that's no indication that it's ever going to happen, much less that it's going to happen soon.

Your "news segment" sounds to me like propaganda against the increasing irrelevance of non-electronic money in the US, which is a bugbear of the batshit-right, who want to return to the gold standard because they're fucking insane.
 

bilby

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China has a middle class and is not a nation of poor peasants anymore. From a news segment they have gone electronic, no paper currency. China is very much a modern state.
I bet Chinese leadership will be happy to hear they no longer have a poverty problem.
I don't think Steve has a clue how big China is.

They could have an affluent middle class as populous as the entire USA, and still have poverty stricken peasants make up two thirds of their nation.
 

steve_bank

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China has a middle class and is not a nation of poor peasants anymore. From a news segment they have gone electronic, no paper currency. China is very much a modern state.
I bet Chinese leadership will be happy to hear they no longer have a poverty problem.
Didn't say that. We have a poverty problem. In Seettle and the region estimates are around 40,000 homeless.

China wants to hang on to the developing nation satsus which gives them financial breaks while they have one of the largest economies of the world
 

Loren Pechtel

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I don't think people care that much about personal liberty compared to wealth and personal security.

But democracy tends to lead to wealth and personal security. That's why people like it and the world drifts in that direction.

Like my brother's Chinese wife said, as long as the Chinese economy is growing the Chinese communist party has nothing to fear from the people.
But the flip side of this is the CCP is terrified of downturns in the Chinese economy, thus ensuring there will be a big one when they can no longer prop up the unsustainable growth.
 

Loren Pechtel

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China has a middle class and is not a nation of poor peasants anymore. From a news segment they have gone electronic, no paper currency. China is very much a modern state.
I bet Chinese leadership will be happy to hear they no longer have a poverty problem.
I don't think Steve has a clue how big China is.

They could have an affluent middle class as populous as the entire USA, and still have poverty stricken peasants make up two thirds of their nation.
Yup. What I see in the big cities and what I see in the more rural areas are very different.
 

DrZoidberg

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I don't think people care that much about personal liberty compared to wealth and personal security.

But democracy tends to lead to wealth and personal security. That's why people like it and the world drifts in that direction.

Like my brother's Chinese wife said, as long as the Chinese economy is growing the Chinese communist party has nothing to fear from the people.
But the flip side of this is the CCP is terrified of downturns in the Chinese economy, thus ensuring there will be a big one when they can no longer prop up the unsustainable growth.
Sure. But that's exactly what we want from a government. We want a focus on long term planning and sustainable growth. As long as China does that there's an incentive for the international community to leave them alone
 

Elixir

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As long as China does that there's an incentive for the international community to leave them alone

They are inserting themselves into other economies around the world, trying to secure and perhaps monopolize natural resources in Africa and other undeveloped territory. It is part and parcel of their long term "growth" plan to be economically parasitic, not allowing the people in those places to participate in the profits from extraction of their own resources. Of course the US does the same. but it doesn't alter the fact. As long as China does that, nobody is going to "leave them alone". Everybody is going to try to horn in on the action.
 

Loren Pechtel

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I don't think people care that much about personal liberty compared to wealth and personal security.

But democracy tends to lead to wealth and personal security. That's why people like it and the world drifts in that direction.

Like my brother's Chinese wife said, as long as the Chinese economy is growing the Chinese communist party has nothing to fear from the people.
But the flip side of this is the CCP is terrified of downturns in the Chinese economy, thus ensuring there will be a big one when they can no longer prop up the unsustainable growth.
Sure. But that's exactly what we want from a government. We want a focus on long term planning and sustainable growth. As long as China does that there's an incentive for the international community to leave them alone
You misunderstand.

China has been maintaining a 7% growth rate. As they catch up with the developed world this will inherently slow, but the Chinese government can't accept that and has tried to keep it going--witness the ghost cities. They're building capacity they don't need rather than slow down. They're setting themselves up for a spectacular failure.
 

DrZoidberg

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I don't think people care that much about personal liberty compared to wealth and personal security.

But democracy tends to lead to wealth and personal security. That's why people like it and the world drifts in that direction.

Like my brother's Chinese wife said, as long as the Chinese economy is growing the Chinese communist party has nothing to fear from the people.
But the flip side of this is the CCP is terrified of downturns in the Chinese economy, thus ensuring there will be a big one when they can no longer prop up the unsustainable growth.
Sure. But that's exactly what we want from a government. We want a focus on long term planning and sustainable growth. As long as China does that there's an incentive for the international community to leave them alone
You misunderstand.

China has been maintaining a 7% growth rate. As they catch up with the developed world this will inherently slow, but the Chinese government can't accept that and has tried to keep it going--witness the ghost cities. They're building capacity they don't need rather than slow down. They're setting themselves up for a spectacular
I don't think people care that much about personal liberty compared to wealth and personal security.

But democracy tends to lead to wealth and personal security. That's why people like it and the world drifts in that direction.

Like my brother's Chinese wife said, as long as the Chinese economy is growing the Chinese communist party has nothing to fear from the people.
But the flip side of this is the CCP is terrified of downturns in the Chinese economy, thus ensuring there will be a big one when they can no longer prop up the unsustainable growth.
Sure. But that's exactly what we want from a government. We want a focus on long term planning and sustainable growth. As long as China does that there's an incentive for the international community to leave them alone
You misunderstand.

China has been maintaining a 7% growth rate. As they catch up with the developed world this will inherently slow, but the Chinese government can't accept that and has tried to keep it going--witness the ghost cities. They're building capacity they don't need rather than slow down. They're setting themselves up for a spectacular failure.

As long as China does that there's an incentive for the international community to leave them alone

They are inserting themselves into other economies around the world, trying to secure and perhaps monopolize natural resources in Africa and other undeveloped territory. It is part and parcel of their long term "growth" plan to be economically parasitic, not allowing the people in those places to participate in the profits from extraction of their own resources. Of course the US does the same. but it doesn't alter the fact. As long as China does that, nobody is going to "leave them alone". Everybody is going to try to horn in on the action.
China has a middle class and is not a nation of poor peasants anymore. From a news segment they have gone electronic, no paper currency. China is very much a modern state.
I bet Chinese leadership will be happy to hear they no longer have a poverty problem.
I don't think Steve has a clue how big China is.

They could have an affluent middle class as populous as the entire USA, and still have poverty stricken peasants make up two thirds of their nation.
Yup. What I see in the big cities and what I see in the more rural areas are very different.
No need to speculate. This is an awesome resource for this

 
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