South Carolina police officer investigated after slamming student to ground at Spring Valley High

[Deepak]

Why not?

Because equality under the law, and equal treatment, is the general rule of law...unless otherwise excepted. She can be arrested, tried, and sentenced as an adult...the only punishment "special treatment" is that as a minor, she cannot be executed.

A damn shame if you ask me

 

[abaddon]

post removed, nevermind...

 

[RavenSky]

Who?

Those who say that not misbehaving makes one a "Stepford child" or those who say that the teacher should have been arrested instead.

In other words, no one except that strawman you created.

 

[RavenSky]

Then you wait until the class is over. You, the grown-up, do not escalate the situation further. This ain't deep.

But she ain't respectin' my authorita!

That's all it really boils down to - for the SRO involved and those here defending him.

Frankly, it is the true bottom line of quite a few police violence cases.

 

[RavenSky]

Oh, a straw Man.
Not a single person here has said "nothing" is done. That's your little caricature. Every single person has said something _different_ is done.
Straw men are so obvious.

Ok, do nothing effective.

What that SRO did was what wasn't "effective". He further traumatized a grieving girl, turned a classroom full of students against him AND he lost his job. Real "effective" there :rollingeyes:

 

[RavenSky]

My background is irrelevant. It is a matter of pure logic. If a person refuses to do something, you can issue all the paper slips with new orders that you like. At some point, in the face of continued refusal, force is usually the only option - the ONLY leverage (other than denying her breakfast and lunch in the cafeteria) is force or the credible threat of force.

But as you repeatedly ask for my background I will relent. My wife and I raised her daughter. My wife was a elementary and high school teacher for 15 years, and spent the next 15 years as a special ed teacher and (later) supervisor of special ed teachers. In the last year and half (before retirement due to failing health) I was a school aid for special ed, and participated in her teacher-classroom meetings and paperwork on students.

Finally, my best friend and his girl friend raised 5 adopted children, three of whom were defiant destructive monsters - one requiring over 100 police dispatches (and occasionally handcuffing and taking to mental health incarceration).

I have also seen what happened to my sister's child, raised with an overwhelming fear of making or enforcing rules of behavior; as an adult he turned out as expected - an immature, unsocialized, and a wimpish narcissist.

My wife was one of the rare teachers who could get even the most troublesome children to obey. She taught me many things about children, including what teachers get wrong. Her rules were simple: give them the expected consequences for not following the rules, and ALWAYS follow through. Never get down to their level and argue, or 'negotiate' punishment, or let them off because they beg for an exception.

She taught in mostly inner city schools, mostly to black children. Once they understood that pleading was not acceptable (and likely to raise her ire), would not argue with them, and that she always followed through punishment she became one of the most loved teachers in her school - years later we received affectionate letters from former students who thanked her.

I am very aware that there are many methods of getting compliance, and have been in several classrooms where the teacher has serious authority. On the other hand, I have also seen or heard of classes where the "special ed" students (the emotionally troubled sections) are in chaos...with students throwing desks and the teacher being little more than a hands off zoo keeper.

Yet, in my wife's last elementary school, in spite of an excellent teaching staff (mostly african American teachers) there was always several times a year that the police had to be called. And even my wife had a knife put to her throat and threatened with death by a defiant 15 year old student.

So yes...sometimes force is needed - not every child or school is from "Leave it to Beaver" or "The Brady Bunch".

so it is fine with you and your wife to throw a girl mourning the loss of her mother across a room?

Max's wife would not have been a special ed teacher for 15 years if her idea of classroom discipline was throwing a student across the room. In fact, from his very own description of her, she sounds just like one of those "extreme pathological empathetic disorder" types.

Given his stated background, I can only conclude that - unlike Loren and Derec - Max does know better and he is just being his typical contrary self for his own amusement.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Why not?

Because equality under the law, and equal treatment, is the general rule of law...unless otherwise excepted. She can be arrested, tried, and sentenced as an adult...the only punishment "special treatment" is that as a minor, she cannot be executed.

She can be tried as an adult, but that is special treatment that only happens under special circumstances.and has to have a special hearing to happen.

I doubt This rises to that special circumstance. Unless you believe as some folk do, black children are older than their ages, incapable of innocence, and should be treated than their age.

Face it, you want to stomp her into the ground, not because she didn't get off the phone but because she dared to refuse an order. For that she should be beaten thrown and arrested. the full force of the law should be brought to bear and used to crush her body and spirit.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Ok, do nothing effective.

What that SRO did was what wasn't "effective". He further traumatized a grieving girl, turned a classroom full of students against him AND he lost his job. Real "effective" there :rollingeyes:

It hurt the girl. And she needed hurting. Otherwise she might continue her arrogant and rebellious ways.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

so it is fine with you and your wife to throw a girl mourning the loss of her mother across a room?

Max's wife would not have been a special ed teacher for 15 years if her idea of classroom discipline was throwing a student across the room. In fact, from his very own description of her, she sounds just like one of those "extreme pathological empathetic disorder" types.

Given his stated background, I can only conclude that - unlike Loren and Derec - Max does know better and he is just being his typical contrary self for his own amusement.

Which would make him a troll and nothing a troll says is worth debating because it is all insincere and said totally for effect.
Are you a troll, Max?

 

[scombrid]

This is just another "bitch had it coming" thread at this point.

Get lippy with your boyfriend? You should have your face caved in.

Pass notes in class and then ignore an order to leave the room? You should get thrown across the room. Anything less is doing nothing.

Brush a cop's hand away when he is repeatedly shoving you and grabbing at you while shouting at you (none of that in the course of trying to arrest you but all in the course of giving you a "calming" lecture as in the Texas case) and you deserve to get choke slammed for assaulting the officer.

Libertopia.

 

[scombrid]

But I am saying that once the school decided she was not to be in their classroom (or on their property), an officer of the law has the right and duty to remove a person from part or the whole of the property.

This is correct. Whether or not the school acted best in involving the police, once the police arrived they were doing as asked by the school to remove the subject from the room.

The issue is whether or not the officer acted correctly in execution of that removal.

There is no difference between using force on her, than it is for tossing any bar drunk, home squatter, or rowdy fan. She is not special because she is 15.

In all cases there is a necessary level of force to safely achieve removal. Minimum effective force is the policy these days as the police aren't supposed to be handing out corporal punishment. I don't think I've ever witnessed in person a cop going to def-con 3 as quickly as did the cop in this case.

 

[iolo]

Any cop who enters any classroom should, obviously, be shot at once in self-defense.

I don't advocate shooting anyone, so I'd amend that to, "it is reasonable for students to feel personal fear when a cop enters a classroom. And that is incredible, a terrible shame, and the fault of the system of good apples that does not weed out the bad apples, making the good apples essentially self-destructive and not-so-good."

I was approaching the matter, as do your politicians, from the NRA viewpoint!

 

[Rhea]

In the end, usually once or twice a year, the police came to handcuff the child and haul his/her ass away...and this was a school where the maximum grade level was 6th.

And they slammed them to do it?

The thing I can't get out of my head is the camera view that shows her on the floor, after the chair tip, NOT RESISTING, and he grabs her and lifts her so high you can see the empty space under her body and he throws her the distance of several chairs and hitting the front wall or desk.

Of course I can't go back and replay it due to bandwidth, I saw that one clip while I was at the library.

But I can't get out of my head that HE THREW HER.

There was no fucking justification for that at all. There never will be. In no universe is that acceptable, let alone productive. That was rage. It was wrong. No student should ever have to endure that.

Can't get that out of my head.

And as I watch people argue here, not thinking that was a big deal or even wrong... I'm dumbfounded.

This girl was determined to make her own rules, and refused to leave. Perhaps 'a slip' might have worked,

And a wrong was committed by the school in not trying it. Problem #1. And this doesn't go away. It remains in plain view during all the rest.

or perhaps she would ignore it's discipline and return the next day as she pleased.

It is wrong to _assume_ she would and use that as an excuse for why it wasn't done. Problem #2 in the school's reaction.

I am not saying that it was not worth trying. But I am saying that once the school decided she was not to be in their classroom (or on their property), an officer of the law has the right and duty to remove a person from part or the whole of the property.

This seems to say,
Once they make a bad decision, it is justified to use force to carry out the bad decision.

No. It isn't.

Once I make a decision to drive drunk, I DO NOT get to crash police barriers in order to carry on with my bad decision. And if I do crash police barriers, I am TOTALLY WRONG for doing it.

It isn't a difficult concept.

Indeed it's not.
One of the most powerful teaching tools available to bring to bear on student discipline is the demonstration that when you have done something wrong, you can admit it.

They know you've done somethign wrong. Don't fool yourself that they didn't notice.
So when they see you able to listen, and change course, they are impressed, not derisive.

People ask police to enforce the law of property and trespass all the time. It does not matter if a girl, boy, woman, or man is asked by a legal authority to leave someone's house, a mall, a store in a mall, a stadium, or a government building the next step is physical force - it is inherent to making people follow lawful rules.

Yes, it does matter _how_ you do it.
Also this is an unrelated tangent because you are now presenting a case where it is proper to remove the person. Which is not what we have here.

Why is a shock that a basic institution, conceived and ran to use its legal social monopoly on the use of force, actually does so?

There is no difference between using force on her, than it is for tossing any bar drunk, home squatter, or rowdy fan. She is not special because she is 15.

Ummm, yes, she is. She's a minor under the care and guardianship of the school.
Um, wow?

 

[Deepak]

This is just another "bitch had it coming" thread at this point.

Get lippy with your boyfriend? You should have your face caved in.

Pass notes in class and then ignore an order to leave the room? You should get thrown across the room. Anything less is doing nothing.

Brush a cop's hand away when he is repeatedly shoving you and grabbing at you while shouting at you (none of that in the course of trying to arrest you but all in the course of giving you a "calming" lecture as in the Texas case) and you deserve to get choke slammed for assaulting the officer.

Libertopia.

I'm confused by the bold. You do understand that most (all?) of the people advocating that this is an appropriate response are small-government-conservatives?

My own anecdotal experience in meatspace and cyberspace is that the folks who support these types of actions tend to be conservative/Republican/Libertarian. Small government until there's a slight infraction at which point the full might of that government should and must crush the infractor.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

My wife was one of the rare teachers who could get even the most troublesome children to obey. She taught me many things about children, including what teachers get wrong. Her rules were simple: give them the expected consequences for not following the rules, and ALWAYS follow through. Never get down to their level and argue, or 'negotiate' punishment, or let them off because they beg for an exception.

Yup--childrearing 101, but an awful lot of parents don't seem to understand this basic formula.

I'm just curious, what the fuck do you know about child rearing?

 

[TacticalLoco]

She complied only after she knew the teacher had summoned help.

So what? At whatever point she complied, that was the EXACT LIMIT of what was needed to get her to comply.

I realize that you are not satisfied with compliance. You want obeisance. And you're ready to punish to get it. She has already complied but you want her punished. You want her dominated by authority.

What you want is undemocratic and unreasonable. You're one of those people who thinks one can gain respect through violence. NeverhappenedInTheHistoryOfTheWorld. All you get is fear and resentment.

Others of us disagree with you. We've seen kids who are actually disruptive. We've seen them dealt with like human beings and successfully. And we've seen force saved for those who are actively dangerous. We actually work with kids. We actually have kids. We've actually been the disruptive one who saw how this can be done.

I know without a doubt that you will never understand this. It is very simple to you. The alpha does whatever it takes to get submission, and you don't stop until they show belly and acknowledge your superior physicality. It's what dogs do. Dogs that have no chance of displaying intellectual wisdom, so they have only physical force. It's good to be reminded that there are people like you out there, so that we can take care to never hire one into a position where their psychopathic position can cause harm. Like this.

^^^ This! And exactly this! ^^^ In the face of you fascist wannabes.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

so it is fine with you and your wife to throw a girl mourning the loss of her mother across a room?

Max's wife would not have been a special ed teacher for 15 years if her idea of classroom discipline was throwing a student across the room. In fact, from his very own description of her, she sounds just like one of those "extreme pathological empathetic disorder" types.

Given his stated background, I can only conclude that - unlike Loren and Derec - Max does know better and he is just being his typical contrary self for his own amusement.

I wouldn't make such a sweeping statement. I have no reason to doubt what Max stated, but I have a problem with what Max thinks it means. It is one thing to be an authority. It is an entirely different thing to disrupt your classroom because a student is texting.

Max's wife most likely understood tack and when to choose a fight, and a lot of it can be on context of every single incident and knowing your students.

What has in SC was that the teacher either didn't know there was an underlying issue, didn't care about the underlying issue, and simply didn't address the relatively innocuous issue of texting properly. Personally, classrooms should be shielded to prevent cell signals, which would immediately put an end to phone issues, because unlike my generation and those before, smart phones are quite a new invention that have really butted their way into the classroom. Before hand, you'd pass notes, now they can pass notes across and even outside the school!

NPR had an interesting thing on tablets and smart phones and some teachers were calling in and expressing frustration over how some of her students can't even handle not having the phone with them! This needs to be addressed in a mature and effective manner. Not by dragging a teenaged student who had recently lost her mother across the school room.

 

[Toni]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/loca...9ea4fa-7e2a-11e5-afce-2afd1d3eb896_story.html

 

[Derec]

I'm just curious, what the fuck do you know about child rearing?

 

[Nice Squirrel]

WTF is that?