• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

Texas Secessionists Push for Referendum on State Becoming Independent

Asking when did a Southern soldier invade a Northern home, but then expressing incredulity by framing things in terms of state entities that were either north or south and acting at a state level is a bit of a false dichotomy, but also looking at the wrong level of entity for the claim. Between the most Northern states and most Southern were border states where there was chaos and violence. The Southern strategy was also initial aggression followed by defense, but there were exceptions.

West Virginia and Kentucky

Recall West Virginia separated itself from Virginia and officially took a pro-Union position, but a full 1/3 of its citizens were either pro-slavery or pro-Confederate. Nearby Kentucky was more pro-Union. Recall level of violence from Hatfield and McCoy feud...More on Kentucky...

Wiki
Kentucky, being a border state, was among the chief places where the "Brother against brother" scenario was prevalent. Southern sympathizers in Kentucky had already seceded[2] and joined the Confederacy,[3] but had been unable to enforce their rule over the state's territory. Kentucky officially declared its neutrality at the beginning of the war, but after Confederate General Leonidas Polk unwisely decided to occupy Columbus in 1861, the legislature petitioned the Union Army for assistance. After early 1862 Kentucky came largely under Union control. But Kentucky also had a star on the Confederate flag, and seats in the Confederate Congress.

There would have been all kinds of violence in border states, within states, anger, ...

Fort Sumter

Fort Sumter already mentioned as a Confederate aggression.

The southern strategy was to seize federal forts and defend because they had a slave economy, not a manufacturing economy.

Washington, D.C.

Wiki
The strenuous effort failed, and the war started in April 1861.

At first, it looked as if neighboring Virginia would remain in the Union. When it unexpectedly voted for secession, there was a serious danger that the divided state of Maryland would do the same, which would totally surround the capital with enemy states. President Abraham Lincoln’s act in jailing Maryland's pro-slavery leaders without trial saved the capital from that fate.

Faced with an open rebellion that had turned hostile, Lincoln began organizing a military force to protect Washington. The Confederates desired to occupy Washington and massed to take it. On April 10 forces began to trickle into the city. On April 19, the Baltimore riot threatened the arrival of further reinforcements. Andrew Carnegie led the building of a railroad that circumvented Baltimore, allowing soldiers to arrive on April 25, thereby saving the capital.

The capital became well-defended. Later in the war...
The capital's defenses, for the most part, deterred the Confederate Army from attacking. One notable exception was during the Battle of Fort Stevens on July 11–12, 1864 in which Union soldiers repelled troops under the command of Confederate Lieutenant General Jubal A. Early. That battle was the first time since the War of 1812 that a U.S. president came under enemy fire in wartime when Lincoln visited the fort to observe the fighting.

Maryland and Pennsylvania

Maryland was a fairly pro-slavery state but stayed with Union. The Confederacy invaded Maryland fought bloodiest battle of the war, Antietam.

The South wanted foreign help because of their resource problem. They thought a big win in Pennsylvania would convince Frenchies to assist. That is one reason why Gettysburg was invaded by the Confederacy. Another reason was to make the North lose morale.

During this further Confederate aggression, they forced white Union civilians to give up property and livestock, reimbursing with unwanted Confederate money. Black Union civilians, on the other hand,--free people--were sent South to become property. More rape and murder.

That's aggression against the North, including civilians, isn't it?

This is all correct, but the larger point is that the entire secession was by itself an aggression against the whole of the United States, which included the southern states. It was an insurrection. Any attempt to frame the civil war as a war of northern aggression, as many southerners and their sympathizers characterize it even today, is beyond historical revisionism — it is historical fraud.
 
A more prudent and possibly succesful strategy would have been for the southern states to petition for a voluntary and peaceful separation of the two regions, agreed upon by both sides.
 
A more prudent and possibly succesful strategy would have been for the southern states to petition for a voluntary and peaceful separation of the two regions, agreed upon by both sides.
How’s that gonna work when the seceding States are not contiguous? GA will be left as an island of The North? Or do they go because they’re surrounded by secessionists?
 
A more prudent and possibly succesful strategy would have been for the southern states to petition for a voluntary and peaceful separation of the two regions, agreed upon by both sides.
That is more or less the story of American politics from 1829 to 1861. If it had worked, we wouldn't be here talking about the Civil War.
 
A more prudent and possibly succesful strategy would have been for the southern states to petition for a voluntary and peaceful separation of the two regions, agreed upon by both sides.
How’s that gonna work when the seceding States are not contiguous? GA will be left as an island of The North? Or do they go because they’re surrounded by secessionists?
 
A more prudent and possibly succesful strategy would have been for the southern states to petition for a voluntary and peaceful separation of the two regions, agreed upon by both sides.
How’s that gonna work when the seceding States are not contiguous? GA will be left as an island of The North? Or do they go because they’re surrounded by secessionists?

They were contiguous. Georgia seceded.
 
Currently there are 15 active military bases in TX with an economic impact of at least $100 Billion. Can’t see Texas as being willing to give that up. And if they had to: How long do you reckon before Mexico reclaimed that territory??
 
Currently there are 15 active military bases in TX with an economic impact of at least $100 Billion. Can’t see Texas as being willing to give that up. And if they had to: How long do you reckon before Mexico reclaimed that territory??
This is just one of the issues out of hundreds thousands(?) that would require years of negotiations.

That said, I support the secession of Texas. It would become a haven for right-wing jerks nationwide. The rest of the country would be far better off.
 
Currently there are 15 active military bases in TX with an economic impact of at least $100 Billion. Can’t see Texas as being willing to give that up. And if they had to: How long do you reckon before Mexico reclaimed that territory??
I didn't think that the British were stupid enough to Brexit.

Never underestimate the power of western voter.
Tom
 
That said, I support the secession of Texas. It would become a haven for right-wing jerks nationwide. The rest of the country would be far better off.
That's kinda why I'm good with Texit.

If the worst dumbasses of the TeaPartiers all moved to Texas, where they couldn't vote in U.S. elections, we'd all be better off.

I don't think it will happen, because without federal highway funding, Social Security, or a free trade zone for fossil fuels, Texans will have to form their own economy.

I don't think that they are able to do so.

I don't think that Texans will voluntarily pay their part of the federal debt. But, if they secede, the rest of us can bank the SSI and other federal monies currently sent to Texas.
That'll work for me.
Tom
 
I don't think it will happen, because without federal highway funding, Social Security, or a free trade zone for fossil fuels, Texans will have to form their own economy.
I think Texans should keep their SS. A US citizen that moves to another country doesn't lose their SS.
 
I don't think it will happen, because without federal highway funding, Social Security, or a free trade zone for fossil fuels, Texans will have to form their own economy.
I think Texans should keep their SS. A US citizen that moves to another country doesn't lose their SS.

But if Texas seceded, Texans wouldn't be US citizens. They'd be Texas citizens.

Nope.
If a person wants to keep their U.S. government check, they must be a U.S. citizen. Move to Oklahoma if you need that federal check.
Or don't. Doesn't matter to me.
Tom
 
I don't think it will happen, because without federal highway funding, Social Security, or a free trade zone for fossil fuels, Texans will have to form their own economy.
I think Texans should keep their SS. A US citizen that moves to another country doesn't lose their SS.

But if Texas seceded, Texans wouldn't be US citizens. They'd be Texas citizens.

Nope.
If a person wants to keep their U.S. government check, they must be a U.S. citizen. Move to Oklahoma if you need that federal check.
Or don't. Doesn't matter to me.
Tom
"One of the most popular questions I get during my renunciation webinars and over the 4,000 files I’ve handled is, “Will I lose my Social Security after I renounce my US citizenship?”

The short answer is ‘No.’ You won’t lose your Social Security with a properly-handled renunciation because most countries have totalization agreements with the United States to avoid such issues with respect to the entitlement."
 
A more prudent and possibly succesful strategy would have been for the southern states to petition for a voluntary and peaceful separation of the two regions, agreed upon by both sides.
How’s that gonna work when the seceding States are not contiguous? GA will be left as an island of The North? Or do they go because they’re surrounded by secessionists?
Lots of countries have been (and some still are) non-contiguous.

Russia has Kaliningrad, which is separate from the rest of the country; The Netherlands and Belgium have an astonishing number of enclaves and exclaves, some of whose borders transect buildings.

It can certainly be made to work, particularly in the case of a semi-enclave, where the separated portion of a country has access to the sea.
 
The short answer is ‘No.’ You won’t lose your Social Security with a properly-handled renunciation
The brexiters also explained to their supporters that they would be fine, because

of course everything would work out.

Yeah, right.

I see no reason for Washington DC to keep sending checks to Texans after Texit. Nor any way for Texas to make those checks appear.

The Brexiters also remained convinced that the EU would have to do things that they were accustomed to happening.

Guess what?
Tom
 
Currently there are 15 active military bases in TX with an economic impact of at least $100 Billion. Can’t see Texas as being willing to give that up. And if they had to: How long do you reckon before Mexico reclaimed that territory??
This is just one of the issues out of hundreds thousands(?) that would require years of negotiations.

That said, I support the secession of Texas. It would become a haven for right-wing jerks nationwide. The rest of the country would be far better off.
Well, Floridians would not likely move to TX so we’d be stuck with that mess, plus Arizona, which does have a decent sized campus of Mayo Clinic, as does Florida which also has a branch of Cleveland Clinic I believe. Or they’d be inspired and want to start their own theocracy and nationalize federal resources currently located there.

There definitely would be a battle or battles, including the armed kind, over military equipment and personnel. It would be a bloody mess, for certain. Literal blood and guts.

Of course all of this just plays into the hands of Putin, not to mention China and Saudi Arabia. And yes, that’s a bit of hyperbolic nonsense but not entirely.

It’s like Jimmy Carter’s drunken idiot of a brother: like it or not, they’re part of us, as embarrassing as that might be.
 
, Floridians would not likely move to TX so we’d be stuck with that mess,
Personally, I don't want or care about all Floridians moving to Texas. Just the hardcore TeaPartiers.

If the hardcore TeaPartiers, from any and everywhere, took themselves out of the U.S. voting pool by moving to Texas as it secedes, I'd be good with that.

It doesn't have to be all of them. Just enough to prevent them from dominating Washington DC.
Tom
 
Back
Top Bottom