The death of Tyre Nichols

[laughing dog]

But the record remains: you were blaming BLM for black people getting killed. And it turns out that was a lie some people are trying to promulgate, and they tricked you into adding your voice and passing on their lie.

And where was it proven a lie?

Where has this been rebutted: https://www.vox.com/22360290/black-lives-matter-protest-crime-ferguson-effects-murder

I'd like to solicit an alternative explanation as to why the black homicide rate exploded after Floyd's death.

Actually, the linked article indicates a possible 10% increase in murders with no reference to race, so perhaps the "explosion" in the black homicide rate is more in your mind?

That police pulled back and criminals did their thing is pretty solid.

That would make any increase in crime the result of the choices and (in)action of the police.

 

[Oleg]

Actually, the linked article indicates a possible 10% increase in murders with no reference to race, so perhaps the "explosion" in the black homicide rate is more in your mind?

Um, you’re aware that article references the Ferguson effect before May 2020? That starting May 2020 there was a spike in murder? And that blacks are highest number of victims of this spike? This ignorance of crime stats is just embarrassing.

That would make any increase in crime the result of the choices and (in)action of the police.

Right. When the media, politicians, and activists paint the police as monsters, many cops quit or hold back on active policing. Hence, the body count.

 

[laughing dog]

Actually, the linked article indicates a possible 10% increase in murders with no reference to race, so perhaps the "explosion" in the black homicide rate is more in your mind?

Um, you’re aware that article references the Ferguson effect before May 2020? That starting May 2020 there was a spike in murder? And that blacks are highest number of victims of this spike? This ignorance of crime stats is just embarrassing.

I agree that the ignorance of statistics is embarrassing. The conflation of correlation with causation is astounding.

Right. When the media, politicians, and activists paint the police as monsters, many cops quit or hold back on active policing. Hence, the body count.

You realize you are, in essence, holding the police accountable for this spike in murders.

 

[Harry Bosch]

But it is possible that marchers in the streets chanting "Kill the cops" had some impact on the situation.
Tom

How so?

Seriously?
You don't see how marchers chanting "death to cops" might make an impact on the PD's ability to attract and retain better quality staff?
Tom

I have to agree here. Marching "death to cops" just makes cops feel that they need to be more on guard. Not less. It makes them more defensive. Less open. More under attack.

 

[TomC]

But it is possible that marchers in the streets chanting "Kill the cops" had some impact on the situation.
Tom

How so?

Seriously?
You don't see how marchers chanting "death to cops" might make an impact on the PD's ability to attract and retain better quality staff?
Tom

I have to agree here. Marching "death to cops" just makes cops feel that they need to be more on guard. Not less. It makes them more defensive. Less open. More under attack.

Also, less likely to join or stay. Especially if you're the decent folk the PD and public want. The authoritarian assholes are more likely to join and stay than the competent and polite folks. Because those people can get better positions.
Tom

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Tom - I can see why you would not want to address the fact that you were blaming BLM for the problem, even when you were shown that the story had nothing whatsoever to do with BLM.

I'm not sure what problem you think I'm blaming BLM for, exactly? Nichols death? I'm not, at least not directly.

Many different things can happen indirectly. For example, you could kill a butterfly in 1830 and it could result in Hitler's birth years later. When things are indirect, you want to show evidence at each step in a series of relationships to convince others you could be right.

From what I can see, so far, it looks like a bunch of first degree murder charges are in order. If BLM was involved in anyway, it would be in Memphis dropping their standards for cops. But I don't know if that's true or not. Maybe Memphis has a problem with finding and keeping competent professionals across the board, from teachers to medical technicians to restaurant managers. I dunno. I haven't even been to Memphis in decades.
But it is possible that marchers in the streets chanting "Kill the cops" had some impact on the situation.
Tom

Well, it's also possible that when you were in Memphis decades ago you bought a cup of coffee and it somehow cascaded into other things and the eventual death of Tyre Nichols decades later. If I wanted to convince people of this, I'd have to show evidence you bought a coffee, then show evidence you put the empty cup in a particular garbage can, then a bum came along and took it, then show evidence that this bum then used the cup to collect change, then show evidence that the money was used to keep him alive, then show evidence he eventually joined the police force where he hired one of the murderers of Tyre Nichols. Without showing evidence that each thing happened, it's a bit of a ridiculous story.

 

[TomC]

Tom - I can see why you would not want to address the fact that you were blaming BLM for the problem, even when you were shown that the story had nothing whatsoever to do with BLM.

I'm not sure what problem you think I'm blaming BLM for, exactly? Nichols death? I'm not, at least not directly.

Many different things can happen indirectly. For example, you could kill a butterfly in 1830 and it could result in Hitler's birth years later. When things are indirect, you want to show evidence at each step in a series of relationships to convince others you could be right.

From what I can see, so far, it looks like a bunch of first degree murder charges are in order. If BLM was involved in anyway, it would be in Memphis dropping their standards for cops. But I don't know if that's true or not. Maybe Memphis has a problem with finding and keeping competent professionals across the board, from teachers to medical technicians to restaurant managers. I dunno. I haven't even been to Memphis in decades.
But it is possible that marchers in the streets chanting "Kill the cops" had some impact on the situation.
Tom

Well, it's also possible that when you were in Memphis decades ago you bought a cup of coffee and it somehow cascaded into other things and the eventual death of Tyre Nichols decades later. If I wanted to convince people of this, I'd have to show evidence you bought a coffee, then show evidence you put the empty cup in a particular garbage can, then a bum came along and took it, then show evidence that this bum then used the cup to collect change, then show evidence that the money was used to keep him alive, then show evidence he eventually joined the police force where he hired one of the murderers of Tyre Nichols. Without showing evidence that each thing happened, it's a bit of a ridiculous story.

Ha ha ha...

Your inability to discuss what I said, and barrage me with misrepresentation and caricatures, makes you look pathetic.

To me. Your Wokester buddies probably won't even notice.
Tom

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I really don't understand all the criticisms of the BLM movement.

I'm not sure which criticisms you're referring to.

My most fundamental criticism is simple and evidence based. I'm certain that the message and methods of BLM will result in more violent deaths across the board, but especially amongst YBM.

It's not difficult to understand.
Suppose for every 5 unwarranted deaths caused by police there are 500 unwarranted deaths caused by civilians. The tactics of BLM(and similar) reduce the death toll by cops 40%, because the cops pull back. The pull back results in a 5% increase in the death toll caused by civilians. Net result is save 2 lives at the cost of 25.

Math is fun. The trouble with the math here is, it is completely made up. The effect could be accurate, but you haven't demonstrated it, and if others have, it'd be best to make note of their work. Much more importantly is this odd ruler you have decided to use. Blacks are wanting the police to police them better... not merely not kill them needlessly.

The killings make the news. The harassment, the arrest while *insert activity* while black hardly gets noticed. This is about more than just the killings. Some guy gets beaten to death and in part your reaction is "well if you blacks didn't say angry mean things..."

Blacks said angry and mean things. Violent things, though the extent of this and any impact it may have had is unestablished and unknown. There is a visceral rage among some blacks. Anger among others. All regarding how they perceive being policed... and this is an aggregated frustration that goes back decades.

It isn't easy to rein in the anger. People like MLK Jr did very well at doing so and was assassinated.

The problem I'm talking about is this. By far, the biggest threat to YBM is not the cops, it's other YBM. And the cops are the biggest barrier to the threat against YBM.

The problem is complicated. The animosity between the police and blacks in general goes back well before #BLM ever existed. And things get more complicated when some people only look at killings when the issue covers generalized policing.

 

[Toni]

But it is possible that marchers in the streets chanting "Kill the cops" had some impact on the situation.
Tom

How so?

Seriously?
You don't see how marchers chanting "death to cops" might make an impact on the PD's ability to attract and retain better quality staff?
Tom

Do you know how long any of the officers involved had been on the PD?

Do you have any evidence that any of the officers involved had been found deficient in any way? Had in any way prior to the events leading up to Tyre Nichols' death seemed to be of poor quality?

 

[Toni]

Tom - I can see why you would not want to address the fact that you were blaming BLM for the problem, even when you were shown that the story had nothing whatsoever to do with BLM.

I'm not sure what problem you think I'm blaming BLM for, exactly? Nichols death? I'm not, at least not directly.

Many different things can happen indirectly. For example, you could kill a butterfly in 1830 and it could result in Hitler's birth years later. When things are indirect, you want to show evidence at each step in a series of relationships to convince others you could be right.

From what I can see, so far, it looks like a bunch of first degree murder charges are in order. If BLM was involved in anyway, it would be in Memphis dropping their standards for cops. But I don't know if that's true or not. Maybe Memphis has a problem with finding and keeping competent professionals across the board, from teachers to medical technicians to restaurant managers. I dunno. I haven't even been to Memphis in decades.
But it is possible that marchers in the streets chanting "Kill the cops" had some impact on the situation.
Tom

Well, it's also possible that when you were in Memphis decades ago you bought a cup of coffee and it somehow cascaded into other things and the eventual death of Tyre Nichols decades later. If I wanted to convince people of this, I'd have to show evidence you bought a coffee, then show evidence you put the empty cup in a particular garbage can, then a bum came along and took it, then show evidence that this bum then used the cup to collect change, then show evidence that the money was used to keep him alive, then show evidence he eventually joined the police force where he hired one of the murderers of Tyre Nichols. Without showing evidence that each thing happened, it's a bit of a ridiculous story.

Ha ha ha...

Your inability to discuss what I said, and barrage me with misrepresentation and caricatures, makes you look pathetic.

To me. Your Wokester buddies probably won't even notice.
Tom

Actually, Tom, your comment was sufficiently vague that there wasn't much to 'discuss.'

 

[Rhea]

But it is possible that marchers in the streets chanting "Kill the cops" had some impact on the situation.
Tom

How so?

Seriously?
You don't see how marchers chanting "death to cops" might make an impact on the PD's ability to attract and retain better quality staff?
Tom

I have to agree here. Marching "death to cops" just makes cops feel that they need to be more on guard. Not less. It makes them more defensive. Less open. More under attack.

Also, less likely to join or stay. Especially if you're the decent folk the PD and public want. The authoritarian assholes are more likely to join and stay than the competent and polite folks. Because those people can get better positions.
Tom

So the logic I’m hearing here is:

• in Dec 2014 people chanted in NYC in an area 2 miles away from the Million Person protest group, and were caught on video
• This resulted in a difficulty in recruiting, hiring and properly training police in Memphis 8 years later, with BLM implicted.

BUT:

• The police are caught on video violently beating young black men beyond the bounds of police procedure in 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020, 2021, 2022 and now 2023,
• and that is NOT LIKELY to have an effect on recruitment and retention, at least not to the extent that it is worth mentioning in the 8 posts that are claiming BLM was responsible.

I think there’s a subtext here that needs to be stated more clearly.

 

[Rhea]

I'm not sure what problem you think I'm blaming BLM for, exactly? Nichols death? I'm not, at least not directly.

Yes, that is exactly what I see you saying. I colored red, bold and underline below where you made me think that you were claiming BLM is the problem and the police are not the problem.

I think it was Memphis, although I could definitely be wrong about the city. A few years back I watched a video of a BLM march in a city.
The crowd was chanting:
"What do we want?

Dead cops!

When do we want them?

Now! "

Then a couple of weeks later the crowd got their wish. BLM snipers in Dallas shot 6 cops, 5 fatally. While protecting a BLM march.

Look around at the current culture. If you were a decent person, qualified for police work, would you join the police force? Or stay in it? Of course not.

Frankly, I think BLM and similar are going to cause more deaths and destruction, especially among YBM. Because the cops aren't the big problem.
Tom

You were wrong about the city, you were wrong about the protestiing group, you were wrong about the decade in which it occurred. Then you went on for more posts continuing to say “BLM, BLM, BLM” when other posters showed you that the causation was not shown. So yes. You did a very good imitation of someone trying to say BLM was the cause.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Tom - I can see why you would not want to address the fact that you were blaming BLM for the problem, even when you were shown that the story had nothing whatsoever to do with BLM.

I'm not sure what problem you think I'm blaming BLM for, exactly? Nichols death? I'm not, at least not directly.

Many different things can happen indirectly. For example, you could kill a butterfly in 1830 and it could result in Hitler's birth years later. When things are indirect, you want to show evidence at each step in a series of relationships to convince others you could be right.

From what I can see, so far, it looks like a bunch of first degree murder charges are in order. If BLM was involved in anyway, it would be in Memphis dropping their standards for cops. But I don't know if that's true or not. Maybe Memphis has a problem with finding and keeping competent professionals across the board, from teachers to medical technicians to restaurant managers. I dunno. I haven't even been to Memphis in decades.
But it is possible that marchers in the streets chanting "Kill the cops" had some impact on the situation.
Tom

Well, it's also possible that when you were in Memphis decades ago you bought a cup of coffee and it somehow cascaded into other things and the eventual death of Tyre Nichols decades later. If I wanted to convince people of this, I'd have to show evidence you bought a coffee, then show evidence you put the empty cup in a particular garbage can, then a bum came along and took it, then show evidence that this bum then used the cup to collect change, then show evidence that the money was used to keep him alive, then show evidence he eventually joined the police force where he hired one of the murderers of Tyre Nichols. Without showing evidence that each thing happened, it's a bit of a ridiculous story.

Ha ha ha...

Your inability to discuss what I said, and barrage me with misrepresentation and caricatures, makes you look pathetic.

To me. Your Wokester buddies probably won't even notice.
Tom

Come back when you have evidence instead of insults.

 

[TomC]

Come back when you have evidence instead of insults.

Come back when you've got evidence, better than "I can't access the internet when it doesn't suit me."

Lemme ask you this. Who killed more YBM? Cops or other YBM?
By what margin?
Tom

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Come back when you have evidence instead of insults.

Come back when you've got evidence, better than "I can't access the internet when it doesn't suit me."

Lemme ask you this. Who killed more YBM? Cops or other YBM?
By what margin?
Tom

So your burden to provide evidence is met by you changing the subject.

 

[Rhea]

Wait. Wut? Rhea does a quick double check to see if the guy who said this:

Come back when you've got evidence, better than "I can't access the internet when it doesn't suit me."

Is the same guy who said this:

It did.
It was years ago.
My internetz are very bad.
And frankly, I don't care if you think I'm lying or mistaken.

Google "Dallas snipers shoot police" if it matters enough to you.

Yup. Okay. Just checking.
Shakes head.
Blinks.

 

[Politesse]

Lemme ask you this. Who killed more YBM? Cops or other YBM?

Aside from presenting no evidence, you are comparing inequivalent things.

When common citizens murder each other, it's usually considered a crime, and the perpetrator, if caught, will go to jail provided that a jury of their peers becomes convinced that they are guilty of that crime.

When a police officer kills someone, it is far less clear whether justice will be possible to attain, and their victim's criminality is assumed despite never having faced the criterion of the law.

 

[Rhea]

Come back when you have evidence instead of insults.

Come back when you've got evidence, better than "I can't access the internet when it doesn't suit me."

Lemme ask you this. Who killed more YBM? Cops or other YBM?
By what margin?
Tom

Hang on. Is your argument that it’s okay for the government to murder people because criminals exist?

Who CARES if more criminals kill people than cops do? Cops should not be killing people, and especially not innocent civilians like Tyre Nichols.

Why would you bring up young-man on young-man murders when we are talking about cases of police brutality? I hnestly want to know why you thought that was relevant. Is it to try to stop the discussion about bad cops?

 

[Patooka]

Suppose for every 5 unwarranted deaths caused by police there are 500 unwarranted deaths caused by civilians.

Suppose cops are meant to held to a higher standard than civilians. That's why they have training, equipment and limited sanction of violence on behalf of the government.
Suppose that since the introduction of bodycams, it's fucking obvious cops have been acting in a particular manner for decades.
Suppose a certain section of the population has known this for decades and their concerns were always dismissed, so the resentment has been growing for quite literally generations.
Suppose the onus is on the cops to earn the trust of people back, and their enthusiasm has typically been...lukewarm. Some might even say they are more concerned about CYA than addressing a systemic problem that they have successfully covered up for years.

I'm going to suppose all that, ant then I'm going to suppose 24 months of broken windows is a real fucking timid response when you take that into account. Kinetics isn't instantaneous, and the pendulum has swung too far to unconditionally supporting police and trusting their side of the story.

Simply put, the one thing about each and every one of these instances that bothers me the most is the one thing people like you, Loren, Derec etc are fucking terrified even discussing. And that's how easily law enforcement is taken at their word when they report on such incidents. How casually they lie about what happened because their brothers have their back. How comfortable their co-workers are with them doing shit like *insert whatever scandal here*. If that ever gets addressed, I guarantee the rest of the problems will disappear.

 

[TomC]

Well, it's also possible that when you were in Memphis decades ago you bought a cup of coffee and it somehow cascaded into other things and the eventual death of Tyre Nichols decades later. If I wanted to convince people of this, I'd have to show evidence you bought a coffee, then show evidence you put the empty cup in a particular garbage can, then a bum came along and took it, then show evidence that this bum then used the cup to collect change, then show evidence that the money was used to keep him alive, then show evidence he eventually joined the police force where he hired one of the murderers of Tyre Nichols. Without showing evidence that each thing happened, it's a bit of a ridiculous story.

It's possible.

I don't see your story as particularly plausible, but you manage to put together words.
You remind me of local hard core Christians and Trumpistas.

That's not a complement. But it's true.
Tom