The heartbreaking reality of a teenage girl's sex life

[Toni]

Those are not the only options available, even if there is not decent sex education in schools. Parents can talk to their kids, although the kids generally prefer that they not, even more than the parents prefer not. Most important parts of sex education are at home, with how people treat one another—how affection, love, respect and even anger. Then there is the whole biology parts.

This is something sorely lacking, and I believe it is rapidly becoming an intergenerational problem. Parents don't know what to say to their children, becuase precious little was ever taught to them either.

This is true. It's also true that kids are often...embarrassed and do not want to hear anything sex or birth control related from their parents.

Which brings us back full circle to the damage that the easy availability of porn is doing to current young people. The thread title specifies the harm that's being done to teenage girls and I agree, strongly. But I think it's also doing harm to boys who aren't getting the right information and messages that will help them become happy people capable of strong, fulfilling relationships. If 12 or 14 year old boys think that random girls are supposed to blow them (this starts in middle school, btw) and that girls like being overpowered, that consent isn't an issue, that they are supposed to knock girls around during or to get sex, that it's great for guys to pile up on a girl, that they are 'supposed' to get whatever sex act they think of on demand, it seems as though boys are being cheated out of the opportunity to have a loving and fulfilling relationship that includes sex with girls.

The subject of the OP isn't new, btw. Even Law and Order did some episodes about it.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5724765/

https://www.wbur.org/npr/472211301/...ance-of-talking-to-young-women-about-pleasure

https://qz.com/674336/the-revolutionary-idea-that-sex-should-feel-good-for-teen-girls-too/

When both boys and girls expect girls to endure physical pain for their partners’ benefit, it’s clear that we need to change the way we talk about sex—starting with the idea that it’s supposed to feel good for everyone involved.

Girls & Sex makes a strong case for changing the way Americans approach sex education. “When kids go into puberty education classes, they learn that boys have erections and ejaculations and girls have periods and unwanted pregnancies,” Orenstein tells Quartz. Many parents are equally guilty of this kind of framing, whether out of moral concern or simple embarrassment. “In the US, we emphasize danger and risk. The Dutch talk about responsibility and joy.”

 

[Politesse]

This is true. It's also true that kids are often...embarrassed and do not want to hear anything sex or birth control related from their parents.

Which brings us back full circle to the damage that the easy availability of porn is doing to current young people. The thread title specifies the harm that's being done to teenage girls and I agree, strongly. But I think it's also doing harm to boys who aren't getting the right information and messages that will help them become happy people capable of strong, fulfilling relationships. If 12 or 14 year old boys think that random girls are supposed to blow them (this starts in middle school, btw) and that girls like being overpowered, that consent isn't an issue, that they are supposed to knock girls around during or to get sex, that it's great for guys to pile up on a girl, that they are 'supposed' to get whatever sex act they think of on demand, it seems as though boys are being cheated out of the opportunity to have a loving and fulfilling relationship that includes sex with girls.

Well, yeah. Obviously sympathy lies most appropriately with victims. But being a sexual abuser is no great life either. Particularly if you get caught. We may not teach boys how to stay off of the registered sex offenders list, but there is no forgiveness, no end to the punishment, when one is on it. An automatic life sentence that will determine employment and domicile for the rest of your life. If you do not wind up an overt criminal, you still have relationships in your life that are based on violence instead of love and respect, a lonely place. So we do no favors to anyone when we do not teach our children, of any genders, the most basic ideas about sexual violence and consent.

 

[Toni]

This is true. It's also true that kids are often...embarrassed and do not want to hear anything sex or birth control related from their parents.

Which brings us back full circle to the damage that the easy availability of porn is doing to current young people. The thread title specifies the harm that's being done to teenage girls and I agree, strongly. But I think it's also doing harm to boys who aren't getting the right information and messages that will help them become happy people capable of strong, fulfilling relationships. If 12 or 14 year old boys think that random girls are supposed to blow them (this starts in middle school, btw) and that girls like being overpowered, that consent isn't an issue, that they are supposed to knock girls around during or to get sex, that it's great for guys to pile up on a girl, that they are 'supposed' to get whatever sex act they think of on demand, it seems as though boys are being cheated out of the opportunity to have a loving and fulfilling relationship that includes sex with girls.

Well, yeah. Obviously sympathy lies most appropriately with victims. But being a sexual abuser is no great life either. Particularly if you get caught. We may not teach boys how to stay off of the registered sex offenders list, but there is no forgiveness, no end to the punishment, when one is on it. An automatic life sentence that will determine employment and domicile for the rest of your life. If you do not wind up an overt criminal, you still have relationships in your life that are based on violence instead of love and respect, a lonely place. So we do no favors to anyone when we do not teach our children, of any genders, the most basic ideas about sexual violence and consent.

This is all true and perhaps this is what it will take to motivate adults to take serious measures to provide better education for boys and girls about what sex is and is not and what is and is not ok. In my view, sex is supposed to give pleasure to all participants and not to cause harm to any participant.

I guess I was just thinking about the emotional and physical ramifications, rather than the legal ones.

 

[Politesse]

This is true. It's also true that kids are often...embarrassed and do not want to hear anything sex or birth control related from their parents.

Which brings us back full circle to the damage that the easy availability of porn is doing to current young people. The thread title specifies the harm that's being done to teenage girls and I agree, strongly. But I think it's also doing harm to boys who aren't getting the right information and messages that will help them become happy people capable of strong, fulfilling relationships. If 12 or 14 year old boys think that random girls are supposed to blow them (this starts in middle school, btw) and that girls like being overpowered, that consent isn't an issue, that they are supposed to knock girls around during or to get sex, that it's great for guys to pile up on a girl, that they are 'supposed' to get whatever sex act they think of on demand, it seems as though boys are being cheated out of the opportunity to have a loving and fulfilling relationship that includes sex with girls.

Well, yeah. Obviously sympathy lies most appropriately with victims. But being a sexual abuser is no great life either. Particularly if you get caught. We may not teach boys how to stay off of the registered sex offenders list, but there is no forgiveness, no end to the punishment, when one is on it. An automatic life sentence that will determine employment and domicile for the rest of your life. If you do not wind up an overt criminal, you still have relationships in your life that are based on violence instead of love and respect, a lonely place. So we do no favors to anyone when we do not teach our children, of any genders, the most basic ideas about sexual violence and consent.

This is all true and perhaps this is what it will take to motivate adults to take serious measures to provide better education for boys and girls about what sex is and is not and what is and is not ok. In my view, sex is supposed to give pleasure to all participants and not to cause harm to any participant.

I guess I was just thinking about the emotional and physical ramifications, rather than the legal ones.

I agree. Though, it's not just pornography, which after all responds as much to popular tastes as much it does model them. I don't think people of the elder generation realize to what extent the current youthful skepticism toward marriage is a direct result of their toxic beliefs about gender/power and what kind of behaviors were therefore modeled for their kids and grandkids as the "natural" shape and outcome of a long term supposedly-monogamous relationship. To some extent, I feel that pornography it to some extent being used as a scapegoat to obscure some deeper and more fundamental problems of toxic masculinity.

 

[Toni]

This is all true and perhaps this is what it will take to motivate adults to take serious measures to provide better education for boys and girls about what sex is and is not and what is and is not ok. In my view, sex is supposed to give pleasure to all participants and not to cause harm to any participant.

I guess I was just thinking about the emotional and physical ramifications, rather than the legal ones.

I agree. Though, it's not just pornography, which after all responds as much to popular tastes as much it does model them. I don't think people of the elder generation realize to what extent the current youthful skepticism toward marriage is a direct result of their toxic beliefs about gender/power and what kind of behaviors were therefore modeled for their kids and grandkids as the "natural" shape and outcome of a long term supposedly-monogamous relationship. To some extent, I feel that pornography it to some extent being used as a scapegoat to obscure some deeper and more fundamental problems of toxic masculinity.

I see porn as a particular kind of drug, one that does not always cause illness and addiction and anti-social and unhealthy behaviors, but sometimes really does. Especially for adolescents and younger, whose brains are still developing. And like any other addictive substance, including, btw, coffee, it does indeed create AND shape demand. After all, as was famously said about another product, parts is parts. There is only so much variety in potential combinations--unless you start throwing in some additional variables.

My generation did its best to upend norms surrounding gender roles, marriage, sexuality. We were raised by a generation that grew up during the Great Depression, lived through WWII and the deprivations of that as well, and to a lesser extent, Korea. I have family who fought in both world wars as well as Korea and VIet Nam. Viet Nam is of course, my generation's war of youth, what we protested against.

Generations have always modeled behavior, good and bad. Maybe I just look too much at my own tiny middle class midwestern corner of the world to see how what my generation (boomer) has modeled differently than my parents' generation and I just don't see a lot of sociopathy or psychopathy there. Especially not sexually. MUCH less judgment, much more acceptance. Of course, there are exceptions. I know people my age who were sexually abused, and some who are a generation or more older than I am who were. I am extremely well aware of the secrecy and denial and shame attached. And I also saw how hard people worked to not foist the same shame and the same causes for shame upon their children.

 

[Emily Lake]

Obviously sympathy lies most appropriately with victims. But being a sexual abuser is no great life either. Particularly if you get caught.

I don't even know what to say to this. "Oh the poor criminals who get caught"?

 

[Politesse]

Obviously sympathy lies most appropriately with victims. But being a sexual abuser is no great life either. Particularly if you get caught.

I don't even know what to say to this. "Oh the poor criminals who get caught"?

View attachment 34025

Excuse me? I literally wrote in the quoted post that my point wasn't to sympathize with criminals over their victims. But teaching a young boy to abuse women is a crime against him as well as his future victims. It's no kind of life to live.

 

[Toni]

Obviously sympathy lies most appropriately with victims. But being a sexual abuser is no great life either. Particularly if you get caught.

I don't even know what to say to this. "Oh the poor criminals who get caught"?

View attachment 34025

Excuse me? I literally wrote in the quoted post that my point wasn't to sympathize with criminals over their victims. But teaching a young boy to abuse women is a crime against him as well as his future victims. It's no kind of life to live.

I don’t disagree….but why do so many men blame female rape victims? Outage against women who stand up for themselves? Or attack women for virtually any instance when women speak out against misogyny? FB is a known cesspool for anything political but the comments from men in response to the withdrawal from swim trials by Australian swimmer Maddie Groves who called out misogynists and ‘perverts’ as the reason she was quitting are just beyond the pale.

 

[Politesse]

Excuse me? I literally wrote in the quoted post that my point wasn't to sympathize with criminals over their victims. But teaching a young boy to abuse women is a crime against him as well as his future victims. It's no kind of life to live.

I don’t disagree….but why do so many men blame female rape victims? Outage against women who stand up for themselves? Or attack women for virtually any instance when women speak out against misogyny? FB is a known cesspool for anything political but the comments from men in response to the withdrawal from swim trials by Australian swimmer Maddie Groves who called out misogynists and ‘perverts’ as the reason she was quitting are just beyond the pale.

Because they've been raised in a patriarchal society in which they are tutored, from a very early age, to consider female testimony less important than male, and to believe that "good girls" just don't get assaulted or harassed. It's not just men, either; mothers absolutely teach their daughters these lessons as well. It's a very sorry situation. I was pretty upset about the situation with Groves, too.

 

[Emily Lake]

Obviously sympathy lies most appropriately with victims. But being a sexual abuser is no great life either. Particularly if you get caught.

I don't even know what to say to this. "Oh the poor criminals who get caught"?

View attachment 34025

Excuse me? I literally wrote in the quoted post that my point wasn't to sympathize with criminals over their victims. But teaching a young boy to abuse women is a crime against him as well as his future victims. It's no kind of life to live.

Okay... sure, technically. But about 95% of the content in your post was focused on the disservice and trauma that boys and men face when they get caught and punished for abusing women.

Can you imagine the response if you'd said Well, yeah. Obviously sympathy lies most appropriately with victims. But being a racist is no great life either. Particularly if you get caught. We may not teach white people how to stay off out of jail for killing black people, but there is no forgiveness, no end to the punishment, when one is on it. An automatic life sentence that will determine employment and domicile for the rest of your life. If you do not wind up an overt criminal, you still have relationships in your life that are based on violence instead of love and respect, a lonely place. So we do no favors to anyone when we do not teach our children, of any race, the most basic ideas about racism and respect.

I mean, seriously. "I'm not blaming the victim but....really, the man who abuses women is a victim too, right"?

 

[Politesse]

Excuse me? I literally wrote in the quoted post that my point wasn't to sympathize with criminals over their victims. But teaching a young boy to abuse women is a crime against him as well as his future victims. It's no kind of life to live.

Okay... sure, technically. But about 95% of the content in your post was focused on the disservice and trauma that boys and men face when they get caught and punished for abusing women.

Can you imagine the response if you'd said Well, yeah. Obviously sympathy lies most appropriately with victims. But being a racist is no great life either. Particularly if you get caught. We may not teach white people how to stay off out of jail for killing black people, but there is no forgiveness, no end to the punishment, when one is on it. An automatic life sentence that will determine employment and domicile for the rest of your life. If you do not wind up an overt criminal, you still have relationships in your life that are based on violence instead of love and respect, a lonely place. So we do no favors to anyone when we do not teach our children, of any race, the most basic ideas about racism and respect.

I mean, seriously. "I'm not blaming the victim but....really, the man who abuses women is a victim too, right"?

Well, yeah, I think it's a crime to raise your children as racists, too. You don't?

 

[Emily Lake]

Excuse me? I literally wrote in the quoted post that my point wasn't to sympathize with criminals over their victims. But teaching a young boy to abuse women is a crime against him as well as his future victims. It's no kind of life to live.

Okay... sure, technically. But about 95% of the content in your post was focused on the disservice and trauma that boys and men face when they get caught and punished for abusing women.

Can you imagine the response if you'd said Well, yeah. Obviously sympathy lies most appropriately with victims. But being a racist is no great life either. Particularly if you get caught. We may not teach white people how to stay off out of jail for killing black people, but there is no forgiveness, no end to the punishment, when one is on it. An automatic life sentence that will determine employment and domicile for the rest of your life. If you do not wind up an overt criminal, you still have relationships in your life that are based on violence instead of love and respect, a lonely place. So we do no favors to anyone when we do not teach our children, of any race, the most basic ideas about racism and respect.

I mean, seriously. "I'm not blaming the victim but....really, the man who abuses women is a victim too, right"?

Well, yeah, I think it's a crime to raise your children as racists, too. You don't?

Okay then, I suppose. Let's keep on viewing criminals as poor oppressed victims I guess...

 

[Politesse]

Well, yeah, I think it's a crime to raise your children as racists, too. You don't?

Okay then, I suppose. Let's keep on viewing criminals as poor oppressed victims I guess...

Oppressed? No. Victims? Yes, if they were taught by those with the reponsibility of raising them that their crimes were the right and acceptable way to behave. Toxic masculinity is violence, often literally, and it wraps everyone it touches with a life of misery and mistrust.

 

[Emily Lake]

Well, yeah, I think it's a crime to raise your children as racists, too. You don't?

Okay then, I suppose. Let's keep on viewing criminals as poor oppressed victims I guess...

Oppressed? No. Victims? Yes, if they were taught by those with the reponsibility of raising them that their crimes were the right and acceptable way to behave. Toxic masculinity is violence, often literally, and it wraps everyone it touches with a life of misery and mistrust.

{deep breath} Okay, I'm going to step back. I'm angry and I'm fed up to the hilt with a huge amount of what is happening to women - both in developed nations where our rights are being rolled back and women are being put in harms way, and in undeveloped nations where the oppression and misogyny is completely abhorrent.

I intellectually get what you're trying to say... but emotionally, no, I just can't. I really can't play the "nice compliant woman" role when the perpetrators of violence against women are being viewed as the victims.

Yes, we need to teach children better. But FFS, can we at least start by actually punishing the adults committing the crimes? Because I am really struggling with your approach. I'm really struggling with the entire premise that we should focus on teaching young boys not to abuse girls... so that those boys have better lives. I mean, I just... I just can't, Poli.

 

[Politesse]

Oppressed? No. Victims? Yes, if they were taught by those with the reponsibility of raising them that their crimes were the right and acceptable way to behave. Toxic masculinity is violence, often literally, and it wraps everyone it touches with a life of misery and mistrust.

{deep breath} Okay, I'm going to step back. I'm angry and I'm fed up to the hilt with a huge amount of what is happening to women - both in developed nations where our rights are being rolled back and women are being put in harms way, and in undeveloped nations where the oppression and misogyny is completely abhorrent.

I intellectually get what you're trying to say... but emotionally, no, I just can't. I really can't play the "nice compliant woman" role when the perpetrators of violence against women are being viewed as the victims.

Yes, we need to teach children better. But FFS, can we at least start by actually punishing the adults committing the crimes? Because I am really struggling with your approach. I'm really struggling with the entire premise that we should focus on teaching young boys not to abuse girls... so that those boys have better lives. I mean, I just... I just can't, Poli.

For god's sake, I was just agreeing with Toni's point. I said nothing about that being the only thing we should focus on.

But I do think that if we aren't teaching better lessons to young men, nothing is going to change. And if people think they are doing their sons a favor by protecting an ideology of male privilege, they're wrong, and the path they're on will hurt everyone, the boys themselves included.

 

[Toni]

Excuse me? I literally wrote in the quoted post that my point wasn't to sympathize with criminals over their victims. But teaching a young boy to abuse women is a crime against him as well as his future victims. It's no kind of life to live.

Okay... sure, technically. But about 95% of the content in your post was focused on the disservice and trauma that boys and men face when they get caught and punished for abusing women.

Can you imagine the response if you'd said Well, yeah. Obviously sympathy lies most appropriately with victims. But being a racist is no great life either. Particularly if you get caught. We may not teach white people how to stay off out of jail for killing black people, but there is no forgiveness, no end to the punishment, when one is on it. An automatic life sentence that will determine employment and domicile for the rest of your life. If you do not wind up an overt criminal, you still have relationships in your life that are based on violence instead of love and respect, a lonely place. So we do no favors to anyone when we do not teach our children, of any race, the most basic ideas about racism and respect.

I mean, seriously. "I'm not blaming the victim but....really, the man who abuses women is a victim too, right"?

I get the irony of a thread that was started supposedly about the terrible choices regarding sex facing young girls today has morphed into sympathizing with men. I'd really like to get more men than Politesse to participate and discuss the emotional ramifications of such a system as is described in the OP on boys and men as well as girls. Politesse has actually done that--and I agree. People who abuse other people are not happy, healthy individuals. Boys who grow up believing that sex is not supposed to be enjoyed by girls but is supposed to be provided by and endured by girls for the gratification of boys are growing up with some pretty messed up ideas that very, very obviously are harmful to girls. But I think that these ideas are very harmful to boys, as well. After all, if sex were only about reproduction, this wouldn't be an issue. Women would have an estrus cycle and that's the only time they'd be available for sex. If sex were only about orgasms, then people could just masturbate. Or combine: Females would only engage in sex during the right time of their estrus cycle. Males would masturbate unless/until they could successfully mate with a female in estrus. But that's not how humans do sex. There's more to sex than just reproduction or orgasm. There is intimacy, bonding, often love and affection. Joy, even. But in a society where males are increasingly being socialized through porn and/or messed up family dynamics that females exist to provide males with pleasure (and progeny if/when the males want) at the expense of their own pain and degradation simply to please males---females aren't the only losers in that game. I think they are the main losers but they aren't the only ones. Males also lose out on what is a significant part of a relationship.

I've known enough abusers in my day to fully understand that they are not happy or healthy people. I certainly have much, much, much more sympathy with their victims than I do with the abusers. But I also think that the only way to convince people to change, to quit abusing other people is to help them understand what is in it for them---more happiness, healthier relationships. Sadly enough, for people who abuse other people, the capacity to empathize with victims is not enough, if it exists at all.

 

[TSwizzle]

I don’t disagree….but why do so many men blame female rape victims?

Really ? I don’t think so.

Outage against women who stand up for themselves? Or attack women for virtually any instance when women speak out against misogyny?

Not really.

FB is a known cesspool for anything political but the comments from men in response to the withdrawal from swim trials by Australian swimmer Maddie Groves who called out misogynists and ‘perverts’ as the reason she was quitting are just beyond the pale.

Anonymous trolls on Facebook are not the real world. I’ve never even heard of Maddie Groves either.

 

[Toni]

Really ? I don’t think so.



Not really.

FB is a known cesspool for anything political but the comments from men in response to the withdrawal from swim trials by Australian swimmer Maddie Groves who called out misogynists and ‘perverts’ as the reason she was quitting are just beyond the pale.

Anonymous trolls on Facebook are not the real world. I’ve never even heard of Maddie Groves either.

There are plenty of people who blame women for being raped. It is so ubiquitous that laws have been changed to prevent rape victims from being questioned about their sex lives in court.

I had also not heard of Maddie Groves but then, I don't follow much sports.

BTW, thanks for starting this thread. I think it's a really important topic.

 

[Tigers!]

The OP started with the observation that porn (hardcore) is a huge problem. Affects both genders in different ways, none of which are good or useful.
Perhaps we need to go back there.
Surely the sheer ubiquity of porn is considered to be a major problem.
If so what are we prepared to do about it?

 

[Toni]

Really ? I don’t think so.



Not really.

FB is a known cesspool for anything political but the comments from men in response to the withdrawal from swim trials by Australian swimmer Maddie Groves who called out misogynists and ‘perverts’ as the reason she was quitting are just beyond the pale.

Anonymous trolls on Facebook are not the real world. I’ve never even heard of Maddie Groves either.

The OP started with the observation that porn (hardcore) is a huge problem. Affects both genders in different ways, none of which are good or useful.
Perhaps we need to go back there.
Surely the sheer ubiquity of porn is considered to be a major problem.
If so what are we prepared to do about it?

IMO, the best first step would be to limit porn viewing (and making) to those 21 and over. Yes, I know that some will jump on me for saying 21 instead of 18 but brain science tells us that 18 is far from adult. So is 21, but it's closer to what we really expect of people in real life at 21. Using 18 as the adult age works mostly as a way to avoid responsibilities and to use harsher punishments.

Under 21, there is still too much brain development going on and people are doing a lot of figuring themselves out sexually at 21 and younger.

The real issue is how to limit it. I believe that such sites insist that they are adult only and must be 18 (or maybe 21) to enter. But all it takes is a computer (including phone) and internet access.....