The incel issue

[thebeave]

These incels or whatever need to be careful with what they desire. I have a friend that was married to a woman with a porn star looks and he got laid off from his job. He got hired for a new job that paid very well but only half what he made before. The day after he told her what he was making she filed for divorce. I'm not saying this to knock women. I've heard stories of men leaving their wives after mastectomies, ect. I'm just saying be careful what you wish for.

As the great philosopher Mendacious said, Whenever you see a beautiful woman, just remember, somewhere there is a man who is sick of her shit.

I find it amusing when a beautiful woman is the wife/GF of a fairly average man (in looks, personality and social stature), a lot of men will gush about how lucky he is. The reality is, its fairly likely the guy is living a life of misery and despair. And it only gets worse for him once her sex appeal wears off with age. Having dated a few very physically attractive women myself, I can vouch for the validity of the hot-crazy graph. Its too bad my rather average and unremarkable younger brother didn't realize this when he was a young lad.

 

[Elixir]

More attractive? I’m sure I’d be more “attracted” to her than to him, but I have always been enthralled with women. OTOH she was unable to “attract” a better looking goldmine than him before she married him, so how effective a gold digger could she be? I was dumped by more than one hot woman, and don’t regret “losing” any of them. But then, I don’t think any of it ever had to do with money.

 

[Bronzeage]

These incels or whatever need to be careful with what they desire. I have a friend that was married to a woman with a porn star looks and he got laid off from his job. He got hired for a new job that paid very well but only half what he made before. The day after he told her what he was making she filed for divorce. I'm not saying this to knock women. I've heard stories of men leaving their wives after mastectomies, ect. I'm just saying be careful what you wish for.

As the great philosopher Mendacious said, Whenever you see a beautiful woman, just remember, somewhere there is a man who is sick of her shit.

I find it amusing when a beautiful woman is the wife/GF of a fairly average man (in looks, personality and social stature), a lot of men will gush about how lucky he is. The reality is, its fairly likely the guy is living a life of misery and despair. And it only gets worse for him once her sex appeal wears off with age. Having dated a few very physically attractive women myself, I can vouch for the validity of the hot-crazy graph. Its too bad my rather average and unremarkable younger brother didn't realize this when he was a young lad.

Mendacious also observed, "We desire the ideal, but we choose from the available."

There has never been a shortage of beautiful women willing to have sex with unattractive men, for a price. If this was a solution to the problem, we wouldn't behaving this discussion. If masturbation were a substitute for sexual intercourse, the human species would have gone extinct as soon as we evolved opposable thumbs. Clearly, there's more at work here than finding a willing short term partner.

Fortunately for the male of the human species, what a woman considers to be attractive in a man is a very elastic thing. I've seen that envelope stretched to the limit many times. I once had an employee who was a beautiful young woman and happened to be 5'11, which made her 6'2'' in heels. She told me that she didn't like to date men taller than herself because in her words, "Tall guys are mostly assholes." She went on to say, "If a short guy has the balls to ask me to dance, that's somebody I want to know better."

On any given day, there was probably a 5'6'' incel whining that she wouldn't give him a chance, but he's never going to give her the chance. There has to be an element of Darwinism at work here. Modern civilization has obscured the fact that finding a sexual partner is not about you, it's about babies. Human infants need a lot of care in the first several years and what little instinctual behavior we have left drives a woman toward the man she thinks will make her life better, or at least a little easier. This leaves the field open for a very wide range of male body types.

One last bit of the wisdom of Mendacious: A disciple was lamenting his poor luck finding a girlfriend and asked what he could do to improve the situation. Mendacious answered, "Clean shirt, clean nails, smell good and smile. After that it's up to her." That's something any man can do, but it's amazing how many can't manage the effort.

 

[Toni]

Jumping in here to state that I have more than one beautiful (by popular affirmation of every single male who has ever seen them) female friend who married....very average looking guys who not only have clean shirts, clean nails and smelled nice but who are kind and funny and smart and reliable and who are not assholes. Note: My friends are not only beautiful but intelligent, kind, funny, caring people. Generally wear clean clothes, have clean nails and smell nice as well. So, they aren't the gold digger types who were raised to believe the only thing they had to make their way in life was cup size, waist measurement and fluttery eyelashes or that the only thing in life worth anything was big piles of money or evidence of such. Anybody really envy Trump his wives?

I do understand that a lot of the asshole behavior comes from being sad, lonely and depressed or stressed out by your life but it also is sometimes exacerbated by feeling sorry for oneself and focusing on how bad you have it rather than on what good fortune you have to be (insert reasons you have to be grateful). Nothing makes a person seem smarter than displaying an interest in what the other person is saying.

 

[thebeave]

These incels or whatever need to be careful with what they desire. I have a friend that was married to a woman with a porn star looks and he got laid off from his job. He got hired for a new job that paid very well but only half what he made before. The day after he told her what he was making she filed for divorce. I'm not saying this to knock women. I've heard stories of men leaving their wives after mastectomies, ect. I'm just saying be careful what you wish for.

As the great philosopher Mendacious said, Whenever you see a beautiful woman, just remember, somewhere there is a man who is sick of her shit.

I find it amusing when a beautiful woman is the wife/GF of a fairly average man (in looks, personality and social stature), a lot of men will gush about how lucky he is. The reality is, its fairly likely the guy is living a life of misery and despair. And it only gets worse for him once her sex appeal wears off with age. Having dated a few very physically attractive women myself, I can vouch for the validity of the hot-crazy graph. Its too bad my rather average and unremarkable younger brother didn't realize this when he was a young lad.

Mendacious also observed, "We desire the ideal, but we choose from the available."

There has never been a shortage of beautiful women willing to have sex with unattractive men, for a price. If this was a solution to the problem, we wouldn't behaving this discussion. If masturbation were a substitute for sexual intercourse, the human species would have gone extinct as soon as we evolved opposable thumbs. Clearly, there's more at work here than finding a willing short term partner.

Fortunately for the male of the human species, what a woman considers to be attractive in a man is a very elastic thing. I've seen that envelope stretched to the limit many times. I once had an employee who was a beautiful young woman and happened to be 5'11, which made her 6'2'' in heels. She told me that she didn't like to date men taller than herself because in her words, "Tall guys are mostly assholes." She went on to say, "If a short guy has the balls to ask me to dance, that's somebody I want to know better."

On any given day, there was probably a 5'6'' incel whining that she wouldn't give him a chance, but he's never going to give her the chance. There has to be an element of Darwinism at work here. Modern civilization has obscured the fact that finding a sexual partner is not about you, it's about babies. Human infants need a lot of care in the first several years and what little instinctual behavior we have left drives a woman toward the man she thinks will make her life better, or at least a little easier. This leaves the field open for a very wide range of male body types.

One last bit of the wisdom of Mendacious: A disciple was lamenting his poor luck finding a girlfriend and asked what he could do to improve the situation. Mendacious answered, "Clean shirt, clean nails, smell good and smile. After that it's up to her." That's something any man can do, but it's amazing how many can't manage the effort.

With regard to "choose from the available" that has changed a lot just in the last few years with online dating, social media, cheap & fast worldwide travel, etc. Back in the old days when it took days to travel get to the next town or to get a message in the mail, that Mendacious statement probably rang true. In the more extreme cases today, women can post some sexy pictures on Instagram and some rich, hot dude will fly her to his estate on the other side of the country the next day to meet up, all on his dime. She's not limited to a guy with clean fingernails and shirt living 2 miles away. So, the "available" is far greater for attractive women (and men) than when the great philosopher Mendacious was around (whenever that was...I can't find anything on google about him). "Clean shirt, clean nails, smell good and a smile" kind of tells me right off that this is probably advice from hundreds of years ago, when men typically toiled away at hard, dirty jobs. I kind of doubt that simple and pleasant sounding catch phrase gets you very far today...its a pretty low bar. This talk kinda reminds me of Jim Carrey in "Dumb and Dumber":

 

[Bronzeage]

As a former hot guy, I can testify that "Clean shirt, clean nails, smell good, and smile," is as valid today as when shirts were a new idea. It's basically a rephrasing of "You never get a second chance to make a first impression." There's no reason to make it more complicated than it is.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Fortunately for the male of the human species, what a woman considers to be attractive in a man is a very elastic thing. I've seen that envelope stretched to the limit many times. I once had an employee who was a beautiful young woman and happened to be 5'11, which made her 6'2'' in heels. She told me that she didn't like to date men taller than herself because in her words, "Tall guys are mostly assholes." She went on to say, "If a short guy has the balls to ask me to dance, that's somebody I want to know better."

Body types, yes. Doesn't work so well for those who didn't get looks or aren't neurotypical.

On any given day, there was probably a 5'6'' incel whining that she wouldn't give him a chance, but he's never going to give her the chance. There has to be an element of Darwinism at work here. Modern civilization has obscured the fact that finding a sexual partner is not about you, it's about babies. Human infants need a lot of care in the first several years and what little instinctual behavior we have left drives a woman toward the man she thinks will make her life better, or at least a little easier. This leaves the field open for a very wide range of male body types.

I would put the blame on her here--she's got the unusual desires but expects him to make the first move. Women typically want men who are taller, a 5'6" man is going to consider a 5'11" woman out of their league and likely to treat his attention as unwanted, perhaps creepy.

One last bit of the wisdom of Mendacious: A disciple was lamenting his poor luck finding a girlfriend and asked what he could do to improve the situation. Mendacious answered, "Clean shirt, clean nails, smell good and smile. After that it's up to her." That's something any man can do, but it's amazing how many can't manage the effort.

And when that's not enough the guy is figuratively screwed.

With regard to "choose from the available" that has changed a lot just in the last few years with online dating, social media, cheap & fast worldwide travel, etc. Back in the old days when it took days to travel get to the next town or to get a message in the mail, that Mendacious statement probably rang true. In the more extreme cases today, women can post some sexy pictures on Instagram and some rich, hot dude will fly her to his estate on the other side of the country the next day to meet up, all on his dime. She's not limited to a guy with clean fingernails and shirt living 2 miles away. So, the "available" is far greater for attractive women (and men) than when the great philosopher Mendacious was around (whenever that was...I can't find anything on google about him). "Clean shirt, clean nails, smell good and a smile" kind of tells me right off that this is probably advice from hundreds of years ago, when men typically toiled away at hard, dirty jobs. I kind of doubt that simple and pleasant sounding catch phrase gets you very far today...its a pretty low bar. This talk kinda reminds me of Jim Carrey in "Dumb and Dumber":

Can't address the movie but I do see this as a big driver of the problem. (I don't like calling it "incel" because that typically refers to the haters, not the alones that aren't haters.) It used to be that options were limited, people would see they couldn't get the ones above their level. Now, however, the dating pool is effectively infinite, there's always the hope of getting someone better and thus people lower on the desirability scale get passed over.

 

[Bronzeage]

One last bit of the wisdom of Mendacious: A disciple was lamenting his poor luck finding a girlfriend and asked what he could do to improve the situation. Mendacious answered, "Clean shirt, clean nails, smell good and smile. After that it's up to her." That's something any man can do, but it's amazing how many can't manage the effort.

And when that's not enough the guy is figuratively screwed.

Why would you think that would be enough? As Mendacious said, "We choose from the available." It's not always clear who is available and who is not. There could be a million reasons she's not interested and none of them have anything to do with you. It's best to get that part out of the way, as quickly as possible, and move on, if needed. You never know.

We'll switch to Leonard Cohen, quoting Janis Joplin, "I prefer handsome men, but for you, I'll make an exception."

 

[Loren Pechtel]

One last bit of the wisdom of Mendacious: A disciple was lamenting his poor luck finding a girlfriend and asked what he could do to improve the situation. Mendacious answered, "Clean shirt, clean nails, smell good and smile. After that it's up to her." That's something any man can do, but it's amazing how many can't manage the effort.

And when that's not enough the guy is figuratively screwed.

Why would you think that would be enough? As Mendacious said, "We choose from the available." It's not always clear who is available and who is not. There could be a million reasons she's not interested and none of them have anything to do with you. It's best to get that part out of the way, as quickly as possible, and move on, if needed. You never know.

We'll switch to Leonard Cohen, quoting Janis Joplin, "I prefer handsome men, but for you, I'll make an exception."

The problem is the dating apps provide an infinite supply of "available".

 

[thebeave]

As a former hot guy, I can testify that "Clean shirt, clean nails, smell good, and smile," is as valid today as when shirts were a new idea. It's basically a rephrasing of "You never get a second chance to make a first impression." There's no reason to make it more complicated than it is.

Maybe the women were interested in you because you were a hot guy. IIRC from an earlier thread, you said you were a Chippendales dancer? You probably would have got interest from them if your shirt and nails were dirty, you smelled of B.O. and you were digging a ditch.

 

[Bronzeage]

One last bit of the wisdom of Mendacious: A disciple was lamenting his poor luck finding a girlfriend and asked what he could do to improve the situation. Mendacious answered, "Clean shirt, clean nails, smell good and smile. After that it's up to her." That's something any man can do, but it's amazing how many can't manage the effort.

And when that's not enough the guy is figuratively screwed.

Why would you think that would be enough? As Mendacious said, "We choose from the available." It's not always clear who is available and who is not. There could be a million reasons she's not interested and none of them have anything to do with you. It's best to get that part out of the way, as quickly as possible, and move on, if needed. You never know.

We'll switch to Leonard Cohen, quoting Janis Joplin, "I prefer handsome men, but for you, I'll make an exception."

The problem is the dating apps provide an infinite supply of "available".

Which would you prefer, a limited or infinite pool of the available.

 

[Bronzeage]

As a former hot guy, I can testify that "Clean shirt, clean nails, smell good, and smile," is as valid today as when shirts were a new idea. It's basically a rephrasing of "You never get a second chance to make a first impression." There's no reason to make it more complicated than it is.

Maybe the women were interested in you because you were a hot guy. IIRC from an earlier thread, you said you were a Chippendales dancer? You probably would have got interest from them if your shirt and nails were dirty, you smelled of B.O. and you were digging a ditch.

I'm sure what I said was "my Chippendale days", but I was never a dancer. I wasn't going to shave my chest for a night job. My day job was an automotive mechanic, which meant a greasy shirt, dirty nails, and soaked in sweat most of the time. I can assure you, the Mendacious prescription yields better results.

 

[bilby]

Women typically want men who are taller, a 5'6" man is going to consider a 5'11" woman out of their league and likely to treat his attention as unwanted, perhaps creepy.

Where do you get all these crazy rules, and how do you not rise up in revolt against the absence of freedom in your thinking that they impose?

Women typically want partners to whom they are attracted. What constitutes attractiveness is entirely up to each individual, and she is completely at liberty not to conform to the slight on-average biases that are revealed by aggregate statistical analysis.

"Most women prefer tall men" leaves a HUGE population of women who prefer short men. Or prefer women. Or prefer short women. Or don't care much as long as the potential partner shares her interests and desires.

Nobody dates a statistical cross section; Everyone dates individuals.

 

[bilby]

I would put the blame on her here

Well, there's your problem.

You feel, for no reason I can discern, that there's a need to assign blame to someone.

Why would you make that assumption??

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The problem is the dating apps provide an infinite supply of "available".

Which would you prefer, a limited or infinite pool of the available.

The thing is with an infinite pool a lot of people don't realize they're fishing above their level and aren't going to actually find someone. Perfect being the enemy of good.

 

[thebeave]

Fortunately for the male of the human species, what a woman considers to be attractive in a man is a very elastic thing. I've seen that envelope stretched to the limit many times. I once had an employee who was a beautiful young woman and happened to be 5'11, which made her 6'2'' in heels. She told me that she didn't like to date men taller than herself because in her words, "Tall guys are mostly assholes." She went on to say, "If a short guy has the balls to ask me to dance, that's somebody I want to know better."

Body types, yes. Doesn't work so well for those who didn't get looks or aren't neurotypical.

On any given day, there was probably a 5'6'' incel whining that she wouldn't give him a chance, but he's never going to give her the chance. There has to be an element of Darwinism at work here. Modern civilization has obscured the fact that finding a sexual partner is not about you, it's about babies. Human infants need a lot of care in the first several years and what little instinctual behavior we have left drives a woman toward the man she thinks will make her life better, or at least a little easier. This leaves the field open for a very wide range of male body types.

I would put the blame on her here--she's got the unusual desires but expects him to make the first move. Women typically want men who are taller, a 5'6" man is going to consider a 5'11" woman out of their league and likely to treat his attention as unwanted, perhaps creepy.

One last bit of the wisdom of Mendacious: A disciple was lamenting his poor luck finding a girlfriend and asked what he could do to improve the situation. Mendacious answered, "Clean shirt, clean nails, smell good and smile. After that it's up to her." That's something any man can do, but it's amazing how many can't manage the effort.

And when that's not enough the guy is figuratively screwed.

With regard to "choose from the available" that has changed a lot just in the last few years with online dating, social media, cheap & fast worldwide travel, etc. Back in the old days when it took days to travel get to the next town or to get a message in the mail, that Mendacious statement probably rang true. In the more extreme cases today, women can post some sexy pictures on Instagram and some rich, hot dude will fly her to his estate on the other side of the country the next day to meet up, all on his dime. She's not limited to a guy with clean fingernails and shirt living 2 miles away. So, the "available" is far greater for attractive women (and men) than when the great philosopher Mendacious was around (whenever that was...I can't find anything on google about him). "Clean shirt, clean nails, smell good and a smile" kind of tells me right off that this is probably advice from hundreds of years ago, when men typically toiled away at hard, dirty jobs. I kind of doubt that simple and pleasant sounding catch phrase gets you very far today...its a pretty low bar. This talk kinda reminds me of Jim Carrey in "Dumb and Dumber":

Can't address the movie but I do see this as a big driver of the problem. (I don't like calling it "incel" because that typically refers to the haters, not the alones that aren't haters.) It used to be that options were limited, people would see they couldn't get the ones above their level. Now, however, the dating pool is effectively infinite, there's always the hope of getting someone better and thus people lower on the desirability scale get passed over.

Yeah, gee I wonder where a short guy might get the idea that he's not wanted by a taller woman? And why won't he at least try and make the first move? Hmmmm.....



The full video, in case you have a long attention span:

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Yeah, gee I wonder where a short guy might get the idea that he's not wanted by a taller woman? And why won't he at least try and make the first move? Hmmmm.....

Yup. People don't want to admit that the current reality is that there are many men who simply don't have a chance. Sure, they might get very lucky and find someone who gets to know them first and then it develops but that's not how most couples form.

 

[Bronzeage]

Fortunately for the male of the human species, what a woman considers to be attractive in a man is a very elastic thing. I've seen that envelope stretched to the limit many times. I once had an employee who was a beautiful young woman and happened to be 5'11, which made her 6'2'' in heels. She told me that she didn't like to date men taller than herself because in her words, "Tall guys are mostly assholes." She went on to say, "If a short guy has the balls to ask me to dance, that's somebody I want to know better."

Body types, yes. Doesn't work so well for those who didn't get looks or aren't neurotypical.

On any given day, there was probably a 5'6'' incel whining that she wouldn't give him a chance, but he's never going to give her the chance. There has to be an element of Darwinism at work here. Modern civilization has obscured the fact that finding a sexual partner is not about you, it's about babies. Human infants need a lot of care in the first several years and what little instinctual behavior we have left drives a woman toward the man she thinks will make her life better, or at least a little easier. This leaves the field open for a very wide range of male body types.

I would put the blame on her here--she's got the unusual desires but expects him to make the first move. Women typically want men who are taller, a 5'6" man is going to consider a 5'11" woman out of their league and likely to treat his attention as unwanted, perhaps creepy.

One last bit of the wisdom of Mendacious: A disciple was lamenting his poor luck finding a girlfriend and asked what he could do to improve the situation. Mendacious answered, "Clean shirt, clean nails, smell good and smile. After that it's up to her." That's something any man can do, but it's amazing how many can't manage the effort.

And when that's not enough the guy is figuratively screwed.

With regard to "choose from the available" that has changed a lot just in the last few years with online dating, social media, cheap & fast worldwide travel, etc. Back in the old days when it took days to travel get to the next town or to get a message in the mail, that Mendacious statement probably rang true. In the more extreme cases today, women can post some sexy pictures on Instagram and some rich, hot dude will fly her to his estate on the other side of the country the next day to meet up, all on his dime. She's not limited to a guy with clean fingernails and shirt living 2 miles away. So, the "available" is far greater for attractive women (and men) than when the great philosopher Mendacious was around (whenever that was...I can't find anything on google about him). "Clean shirt, clean nails, smell good and a smile" kind of tells me right off that this is probably advice from hundreds of years ago, when men typically toiled away at hard, dirty jobs. I kind of doubt that simple and pleasant sounding catch phrase gets you very far today...its a pretty low bar. This talk kinda reminds me of Jim Carrey in "Dumb and Dumber":

Can't address the movie but I do see this as a big driver of the problem. (I don't like calling it "incel" because that typically refers to the haters, not the alones that aren't haters.) It used to be that options were limited, people would see they couldn't get the ones above their level. Now, however, the dating pool is effectively infinite, there's always the hope of getting someone better and thus people lower on the desirability scale get passed over.

Yeah, gee I wonder where a short guy might get the idea that he's not wanted by a taller woman? And why won't he at least try and make the first move? Hmmmm.....

"I would put the blame on her here--she's got the unusual desires but expects him to make the first move. Women typically want men who are taller, a 5'6" man is going to consider a 5'11" woman out of their league and likely to treat his attention as unwanted, perhaps creepy."

While we're assigning blame, based on a single anecdote, could you explain what sin this young woman has committed? I don't remember a time when she lacked companionship, so it seems like things were working well for her, as well as some self confident assertive short guy. I will note that confidence and self assertion are not dependent on body type, so she was preselecting based on a character trait.

 

[Toni]

Yeah, gee I wonder where a short guy might get the idea that he's not wanted by a taller woman? And why won't he at least try and make the first move? Hmmmm.....

Yup. People don't want to admit that the current reality is that there are many men who simply don't have a chance. Sure, they might get very lucky and find someone who gets to know them first and then it develops but that's not how most couples form.

Uh, yeah that IS how most couples form. People get to know each other abd decide they like each other and a relationship grows from that.

Sure, some people meet via dating sites. But it’s the same process: people meet, get to know each other and decide whether they want to have an ongoing relationship abd what kind of relationship,

The people that tends to not work out for are those who think you can order up someone using some kind of mix/match menu, like take out. And those who cry that it isn’t fair that the super hot person they don’t actually know and have never met doesn’t knock on their door and suggest banging their brains out.

 

[Toni]

The truth is that there are a lot of lonely women out there who are never considered ‘date’ material. They are too old or too tall or too fat or too think or too awkward or too successful or even too beautiful or too smart or too independent or whatever.

Some of them have the same hang ups lonely men have: lack of confidence, socially awkward. Don’t look like models. You know the type: real women.