The Manhood Trap

[TSwizzle]

Interesting article. I see the Democrats are determined to lose even more support from young men going forward. What are they shooting for the next election? 10%? Someone needs to take that shovel away...

And what's the status on the $20 million Democrats are spending to see what makes men tick? Have they come to any conclusions so far? Maybe they could hire Jane Goodall?

Insufferable prick Newsom is being utterly cringe as he tries to appeal to males with his recent appearance on a FOUR HOUR podcast where he tries to be all manly by dropping f-bombs, son-of-a-bitches and god-damns all over the place. Newsom is such a toady.

Was he doing his crazy made up sign language crap with his hands again?

I didn’t see much of it but yeah, totally fucking cringe, and the way he sits, fucking hell, he’s a weapons grade asshole. I’m looking forward to him running for president.

 

[bigfield]

I think these two points are worth comparing:

[Toxic masculinity is] being sold to young men as an antidote to their anxieties, be they economic, social, or existential.

What we need instead is a redefinition of masculinity: strength defined by compassion, power defined by service, leadership defined by respect.

What we need is the antidote without the toxic side effects.

Compassion, service and respect aren't an antidote to young men's "anxieties"; they're an antidote to everyone else's anxieties about young men.

Young men want to solve their problems. If you don't offer solutions, they'll find someone who does.

Those last two sentences contradict each other. I think that they are both true but therein lies the problem.

Young men want to solve their problems —but wanting someone else to provide the solutions is lazy and childish—and ultimately unproductive.

Actually solving a problem is a three fold reward: problems solved and a sense of accomplishment but there is that rush of good feeling endorphins.

Having someone else present the solution to your problem or perceived is just short term endorphin rush and perhaps an immediate solution to a orobjrm but this scenario dues not help the individual grow in mastery of skills or knowledge nor does it allow them to feel any sense of accomplishment, except perhaps becoming better at manipulating others.

Obviously we all need to rely on the skills, knowledge, expertise and goods of others to a certain extent—increasingly so, perhaps, in the growing complexity of the world. We do not need to build our own homes or our own vehicles and we are not going to perform our own appendectomy.

But by learning to solve problems from the beginning, our brains grow, our capacity to solve more and more complex problems grows and we feel more satisfaction with our own abilities —and see where we need to improve or grow.

This applies to learning ( anything) and to building our relationships with others.

Babies learn the exchange early on: they mimic smiles of their parents and learn to smile to get a response. Actually before that, they learn that crying will bring comfort. They learn that they can make their toys move or mage sound. They begin to try to mimic sounds they hear around them. They learn give and take by offering their nummie or their toy and getting it back. And they learn this all better if their parents aren’t trying to do it all for them.

This is a life long process. Hopefully.

I think that's a pretty reasonable thing to ask of parents.

Ideally every child would be raised in an environment where they get all the guidance they need from their parents and teachers, and we would not need to worry about the manosphere because no young men would buy into it.

Based on my personal experience, I think some boys and young men have problems that they can't bootstrap out of, not because they weren't raised right, but because they're unlucky. They need help to heal and get their lives back on track, and if they don't get that help from people who care about them, they might get it from some malevolent gurus on the internet.

 

[Toni]

I was talking once with a young person who came from a nice middle class small town background who was doing an internship with a restorative justice program, designed to try to intervene when young men had contract with the legal system, to help them avoid jail time. His comment when describing the young men, well, many of them teens was that they had never been virgins, that they were fucked before they were born: they never had a chance. That many used drugs and alcohol because that’s what they saw all the adults in their lives do in order to deal with or avoid problems. Of course this includes mental illness for which they are unable to get treated or even diagnosed.

That’s a pretty bleak picture. Not universally true—I know some young adults who grew up in homes with lots of alcohol and drug abuse—and other types of abuse who made the choice and stuck with it to get out of that trap and have a better life. Not all smooth sailing but they’ve made it. Sadly, not all of them did.

Mental health issues really really need to be addressed. Not

 

[Bronzeage]

Defining manhood has been a problem since our species started wearing pants. From this point forward, we've been saddled with philosophers who offer definitions which benefit themselves.

It's quaint to see our latest crop of manhood definers try to steer us back to the 'man as king of his castle' model, where the man returns home after a day of slaying dragons, to a hot supper and quiet children. This is without acknowledging the middle-class single income home doesn't really exist anymore. His wife has dragon blood on her shoes too.

We could go into how capitalism in the 20th century led to this, but that's another discussion.

The media segment known as the Manosphere exists for the sole reason of capturing the discontent of men of all ages and corralling it for political purposes. Nothing to do with restoring anyone's manhood.

 

[Politesse]

It was never a realistic model. Unless you're a family of fifteen or so, to have every action, every emotion, every role assigned a strictly enforced gender role gives you at best a perilously inflexible economic situation and run by psychologically compromised agents.

 

[Derec]

From Epstein’s Island to Musk’s Baby Farm — How the Right Redefined Masculinity as Control, by Thom Hartmann.

Thom Hartmann? Really?

Anyway, I think Dems/libs did a lot of work to turn men off. For example, Obama administration forcing universities to apply the lowest standard of proof on accusations of sexual assault, and otherwise restricted ability of male students to defend themselves. That predictably led to false positives, where innocent students were expelled.
The then Democratic congressman (and now Democratic governor of Colorado) Jared Polis went even further, saying that male students should be expelled even if there was only a 20% or 30% chance that they were guilty.
Rep. Jared Polis Thinks Colleges Should Be Able to Expel Students When They're Only 20% Sure a Rape Happened
It is baffling to me why any men in Colorado voted for this piece of shit.

Then you have things like Biden excluding anybody male or non-black from being his running mate. He applied the same exclusion to his choice of SCOTUS justice, even though Democrats have not put a man on the high court since 1994. Young men that Dems need to attract were not even born then! And Newsom did the same for his choice of US Senator from California.

Then there is criminal justice. Hillary Clinton wanted to codify preferential treatment of female criminals into law, because she thinks that whenever a woman commits a crime, it's really some man's fault.
Hillary Clinton: Women and prison – the cost in money and lives

Of course, women are already given preferential treatment in the criminal injustice system. For example, this woman who robbed men but got away with zero jail time:
'We have a predator': Woman lured men, pepper sprayed them before stealing luxury watches

A Florida woman has been sentenced to five years probation after pleading guilty to charges related to luring men to hotel rooms, pepper-spraying them, and stealing their luxury watches.
20-year-old Esther Torres was initially arrested on two counts of first-degree robbery. Her case finished with a plea agreement on charges of armed robbery, burglary, and grand theft in the third degree, according to Law and Crime.
The first incident occurred at the Breakwater Hotel, where a victim was pepper-sprayed and had his Hugo Boss watch, over $200 in cash, Euros, and multiple credit cards stolen. The second incident took place at the Fontainebleau Hotel, where a man was pepper-sprayed and robbed of a $22,000 Rolex Submariner.

How is this justice? No wonder she is grinning in her mugshot. She is well aware of her privilege.

There is also the issue of widely overused phrase "toxic masculinity" for every perceived bad behavior by men. On the other hand, when women behave badly, "toxic femininity" is not used. No wonder many men are turned off by that kind of language.

 

[Derec]

Those last two sentences contradict each other. I think that they are both true but therein lies the problem.
Young men want to solve their problems —but wanting someone else to provide the solutions is lazy and childish—and ultimately unproductive.

I do not think it is contradictory. Not all problems are solvable by the person. And when the person sees that the society is marginalizing them, pretending that their problems do not matter, that leads to alienation.
Take college. Most college students these days are women. And yet, women are still given preferential treatment because they are not majority in every major. Then you have this idea that it is better to expel 100 innocent college men than to allow one sexual assaulter to remain on campus.

Actually solving a problem is a three fold reward: problems solved and a sense of accomplishment but there is that rush of good feeling endorphins.

Individual effort is important, but not all problems are solvable solely through one's own effort. Why is it ok for society to care and help with women's problems? Should women not solve their own problems too?

It is not an accident that Dems chose a female example for their video showing how much their government programs help people.

 

[thebeave]

Of course, women are already given preferential treatment in the criminal injustice system. For example, this woman who robbed men but got away with zero jail time:
'We have a predator': Woman lured men, pepper sprayed them before stealing luxury watches

A Florida woman has been sentenced to five years probation after pleading guilty to charges related to luring men to hotel rooms, pepper-spraying them, and stealing their luxury watches.
20-year-old Esther Torres was initially arrested on two counts of first-degree robbery. Her case finished with a plea agreement on charges of armed robbery, burglary, and grand theft in the third degree, according to Law and Crime.
The first incident occurred at the Breakwater Hotel, where a victim was pepper-sprayed and had his Hugo Boss watch, over $200 in cash, Euros, and multiple credit cards stolen. The second incident took place at the Fontainebleau Hotel, where a man was pepper-sprayed and robbed of a $22,000 Rolex Submariner.

How is this justice? No wonder she is grinning in her mugshot. She is well aware of her privilege.

I'm surprised men are still falling for these scamming women. Don't they remember what happened to George Costanza?

 

[Toni]

Those last two sentences contradict each other. I think that they are both true but therein lies the problem.
Young men want to solve their problems —but wanting someone else to provide the solutions is lazy and childish—and ultimately unproductive.

I do not think it is contradictory. Not all problems are solvable by the person. And when the person sees that the society is marginalizing them, pretending that their problems do not matter, that leads to alienation.
Take college. Most college students these days are women. And yet, women are still given preferential treatment because they are not majority in every major. Then you have this idea that it is better to expel 100 innocent college men than to allow one sexual assaulter to remain on campus.

Actually solving a problem is a three fold reward: problems solved and a sense of accomplishment but there is that rush of good feeling endorphins.

Individual effort is important, but not all problems are solvable solely through one's own effort. Why is it ok for society to care and help with women's problems? Should women not solve their own problems too?

It is not an accident that Dems chose a female example for their video showing how much their government programs help people.

Derec, every question I ask is sincere. I’m not looking for a gotcha moment or to score points. I really do want to understand your POV because things look different from my perspective. I want to see what it is that I am missing it not understanding. Sincerely.

Can you give an example of women in college getting preferential treatment? I’m not being mean but I cannot think of any instance where this is true. But if I’m wrong, I’d like to know.

AFAIK, no place is expelling 100 men in order to ensure they are expelling the one who sexually assaults women. Again, even taking into consideration that you are using hyperbole with reference to 100 men, I am not understanding what you mean. Sincerely.

Can you tell me how men are being marginalized? Again, I’m not looking for points for me to argue against. I really want to understand what you mean.

 

[Toni]

Of course, women are already given preferential treatment in the criminal injustice system. For example, this woman who robbed men but got away with zero jail time:
'We have a predator': Woman lured men, pepper sprayed them before stealing luxury watches

A Florida woman has been sentenced to five years probation after pleading guilty to charges related to luring men to hotel rooms, pepper-spraying them, and stealing their luxury watches.
20-year-old Esther Torres was initially arrested on two counts of first-degree robbery. Her case finished with a plea agreement on charges of armed robbery, burglary, and grand theft in the third degree, according to Law and Crime.
The first incident occurred at the Breakwater Hotel, where a victim was pepper-sprayed and had his Hugo Boss watch, over $200 in cash, Euros, and multiple credit cards stolen. The second incident took place at the Fontainebleau Hotel, where a man was pepper-sprayed and robbed of a $22,000 Rolex Submariner.

How is this justice? No wonder she is grinning in her mugshot. She is well aware of her privilege.

I'm surprised men are still falling for these scamming women. Don't they remember what happened to George Costanza?

I’m just guessing but perhaps the jury didn’t find much sympathy for rich men looking to chest on their wives with a young hooker—I assume paying someone for sex is still a crime in Florida. In other words, they are also unlikely to have a lot of sympathy for rich men who are robbed by their coke dealer.

I think stealing is wrong and it’s illegal. I’m not in any way justifying what the woman did.

 

[Tigers!]

Young men want to solve their problems. If you don't offer solutions, they'll find someone who does.

All too true, sadly.

 

[Tigers!]

If men want to solve their problems, maybe they could start by asking "what even is a 'man' and why do I even care?!?"

We've already had the discussion "what is a woman?" so probably time for "What is a man?"

 

[Jarhyn]

If men want to solve their problems, maybe they could start by asking "what even is a 'man' and why do I even care?!?"

We've already had the discussion "what is a woman?" so probably time for "What is a man?"

I think that misses the point, insofar as that a "man" isn't really a thing at all, nor is a "woman".

"Man" and "woman" are imaginary statistical objects; they don't really exist anywhere but our minds, and nobody anywhere is exactly those things, unless they use themselves selfishly as the penultimate examples (in which case, it's relative to who you ask, and there isn't going to be one answer, hence we return to "why do I even care?")

Many problems people run into associated with "being a man" are caused by the assumption that they are and must be something called a "man" in the first place, as if there is some obligation people have.

 

[Bronzeage]

If men want to solve their problems, maybe they could start by asking "what even is a 'man' and why do I even care?!?"

We've already had the discussion "what is a woman?" so probably time for "What is a man?"

If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too;
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, don’t deal in lies,
Or being hated, don’t give way to hating,
And yet don’t look too good, nor talk too wise:

If you can dream—and not make dreams your master;
If you can think—and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you’ve spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build ’em up with worn-out tools:

If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breathe a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: ‘Hold on!’

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with Kings—nor lose the common touch,
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,
If all men count with you, but none too much;
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds’ worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that’s in it,
And—which is more—you’ll be a Man, my son!
Rugyard KIpling

 

[patchy]

It feels way past due to observe that “The Manhood Trap” would be a fairly decent name for a gay bar.

 

[ZiprHead]

Those last two sentences contradict each other. I think that they are both true but therein lies the problem.
Young men want to solve their problems —but wanting someone else to provide the solutions is lazy and childish—and ultimately unproductive.

I do not think it is contradictory. Not all problems are solvable by the person. And when the person sees that the society is marginalizing them, pretending that their problems do not matter, that leads to alienation.

I was good with you up to here

Take college. Most college students these days are women. And yet, women are still given preferential treatment because they are not majority in every major. Then you have this idea that it is better to expel 100 innocent college men than to allow one sexual assaulter to remain on campus.

Actually solving a problem is a three fold reward: problems solved and a sense of accomplishment but there is that rush of good feeling endorphins.

Individual effort is important, but not all problems are solvable solely through one's own effort. Why is it ok for society to care and help with women's problems? Should women not solve their own problems too?

It is not an accident that Dems chose a female example for their video showing how much their government programs help people.

Then you went off the rails bonkers.

 

[Playball40]

Why do I keep hearing that young men feel "left behind" when in reality, it's just the opportunity gap was finally closing (WAS). Why do men feel like they've been 'left behind'?

 

[Politesse]

Why do I keep hearing that young men feel "left behind" when in reality, it's just the opportunity gap was finally closing (WAS). Why do men feel like they've been 'left behind'?

When you are accustomed to only seeing biological men in a given space, seeing biological women there as well is inherently and instinctively terrifying. Men, we are told, are easily startled by such changes, and often violent. Chimpanzee-like, apparently. They just can't handle it. They go bananas.

So goes the story, anyway. From my vantage point as a professor, I don't see any evidence that male college students themselves are plagued by such feelings, it's their parents who are really doing the freaking out, and the media amplifying it. Not to say that today's young men aren't dealing with a lot of real and serious problems, but I don't think "there are too many girls at college" would be first on the list for most.

 

[WAB]

Why do I keep hearing that young men feel "left behind" when in reality, it's just the opportunity gap was finally closing (WAS). Why do men feel like they've been 'left behind'?

When you are accustomed to only seeing biological men in a given space, seeing biological women there as well is inherently and instinctively terrifying. Men, we are told, are easily startled by such changes, and often violent. Chimpanzee-like, apparently. They just can't handle it. They go bananas.

So goes the story, anyway. From my vantage point as a professor, I don't see any evidence that male college students themselves are plagued by such feelings, it's their parents who are really doing the freaking out, and tje media amplifying it. Not to say that today's young men aren't dealing with a lot of real and serious problems, but I don't think "there are too many girls at college" would be first on the list for most.

Well I must be an anomaly, as I'm a hetero male who has always preferred the company of women.

I don't know of any situation where the presence of women would make me go bananas. I do know of men who like a boy's club atmosphere, especially when it comes to playing/watching sports and/or going nuts in a bar, but that's not me.

A good deal of men are just posturing assholes, which is why I am most happy when there are none around.

 

[Politesse]

Why do I keep hearing that young men feel "left behind" when in reality, it's just the opportunity gap was finally closing (WAS). Why do men feel like they've been 'left behind'?

When you are accustomed to only seeing biological men in a given space, seeing biological women there as well is inherently and instinctively terrifying. Men, we are told, are easily startled by such changes, and often violent. Chimpanzee-like, apparently. They just can't handle it. They go bananas.

So goes the story, anyway. From my vantage point as a professor, I don't see any evidence that male college students themselves are plagued by such feelings, it's their parents who are really doing the freaking out, and tje media amplifying it. Not to say that today's young men aren't dealing with a lot of real and serious problems, but I don't think "there are too many girls at college" would be first on the list for most.

Well I must be an anomaly, as I'm a hetero male who has always preferred the company of women.

I don't know of any situation where the presence of women would make me go bananas. I do know of men who like a boy's club atmosphere, especially when it comes to playing/watching sports and/or going nuts in a bar.

Perhaps. But is an economics class really one of those places? Does it need to be? Should it be? Actual young Americans have for the past two generations come up through an almost exclusively co-ed primary and secondary education system. The supposed over-enrollment of women in the colleges is no threat to someone who has always gone to school with females and always expected to. Unless a church or one of these man-o-sphere nutjobs gets to them, but I also think the media is overplaying how popular these influencers actually are. It's true that fewer ypung men are enrolling in college to begin with and even fewer are gradiating, but blaming either on the presence of women is ludicrous.