The vanguard of the Caravan is already in Mexico City, more than halfway to the border

[Derec]

Something to keep in mind here: They can both be legitimate refugees and have economic motives.

If you have to flee where you live aren't you going to want to go to where you think you'll do best? Thus their desire to go to America doesn't prove they aren't legitimate refugees.

In principle yes, But consider this: if all they say when asked by media is that they want to make money and send it to their families, then yes, their motive is not that they are fleeing for their lives, because otherwise they'd be leading with that and also would not leave their families in Honduras if it was that dangerous.

Note also that Honduras does not have a war on, and that even US has a bog problem with gang violence (some of it of Central American origin).

 

[Derec]

The definition: vanguard: a group of people leading the way in new developments or ideas.

One definition.

- - - Updated - - -

Why would they be illegal to the U.S.? They've never touched U.S. soil before.

If you have followed reporting on the Caravan, you'd have read that many caravaners are previously deported illegals.

Others have expressed the intention to sneak across the border.

And coming to the U.S. and asking for asylum is not illegal.

It is when you plan to do so fraudulently.

 

[Derec]

The constant drumbeat of racist rhetoric has led to a scenario where folks like Derec believe that anyone who crosses our border with Mexico is automatically "illegal." Even if they come through a port of entry and ask for asylum.

First of all, Honduran is not a race. Second, I do not have anything against Hondurans as such.
However, asylum was indented to be for people fleeing legitimate government persecution for things like race, religion or politics. It is not meant to facilitate mass migration.
Saying there are gangs active in Honduras or that wages are too low are not legitimate grounds to seek asylum.

Look what is happening in Europe. Every single mass migrant is claiming asylum, because that's their ticket to not get deported. I do not want to see US suffer the same problem.

 

[TSwizzle]

{snip} these people will LITERALLY HAVE ZERO IMPACT ON YOUR LIFE FOR A GUARANTEED ABSOLUTE FACT.

Living a bit closer to ground zero, your guarantee is not worth much, particularly to Alexander Mazin;

The suspect in the shooting death of a man near the 24 Hour Fitness in the Midway area is an undocumented immigrant with a prior immigration violation, according to law enforcement sources. San Diego Police arrived at the rear parking lot of the gym at 3675 Midway Drive February 25 to find Alexander Mazin, 27, suffering from a gunshot wound to the torso. He died at the scene. Law enforcement sources told 10News the suspect, Ernesto Castellanos Martinez, had a prior “voluntary departure” agreement which meant he had been asked to leave the country after an immigration conviction in 2004. He left, but eventually made it back into the U.S.

SDNews

An influx of thousands of people into the area is bound to have an impact on people in the area.

 

[Derec]

I'm still laughing at the use of the word "vanguard" in this context.

Why? And while I came up with the expression myself, it has been used by writers of several news stories on the Caravan as well. For example Associated Press:
Migrant vanguard hits the US border

 

[bilby]

One definition.

- - - Updated - - -


If you have followed reporting on the Caravan, you'd have read that many caravaners are previously deported illegals.

Others have expressed the intention to sneak across the border.

And coming to the U.S. and asking for asylum is not illegal.

It is when you plan to do so fraudulently.

No, it's not. Thoughtcrime isn't currently prosecutable in the US, and even if it were, these particular people are currently outside US jurisdiction.

What they plan to do is conjecture. They have committed no crime, and people cannot be targeted by law enforcement on the basis of what they might be planning to do.

I am increasingly convinced that the Americans who use the word 'freedom' most often have exactly no idea what the fuck the word even means.

Perhaps you should be arrested for shoplifting next time you are at the grocery store, on the grounds that the security guard thought you might be planning to leave without paying? Or do you think that he needs to wait and see what you do when you get to the checkout, before deciding that you are planning to commit a crime? After all, if someone else with similar circumstances and appearance to you stole stuff from that shop before, by your logic, it's reasonable for him to declare you 'illegal' preemptively.

 

[Derec]

No, it's not. Thoughtcrime isn't currently prosecutable in the US, and even if it were, these particular people are currently outside US jurisdiction.

It's not thoughtcrime. By joining the caravan, they have taken concrete steps to further their plan.

What they plan to do is conjecture. They have committed no crime, and people cannot be targeted by law enforcement on the basis of what they might be planning to do.

Of course they can. As long as concrete steps have been taken.

I am increasingly convinced that the Americans who use the word 'freedom' most often have exactly no idea what the fuck the word even means.

It certainly does not mean "open borders".
Your country defends its borders. Why can't ours?

Or do you think that he needs to wait and see what you do when you get to the checkout, before deciding that you are planning to commit a crime? After all, if someone else with similar circumstances and appearance to you stole stuff from that shop before, by your logic, it's reasonable for him to declare you 'illegal' preemptively.

Many of these people have already been deported. And others have bragged that they plan to sneak in or rush the border as a large groups to overwhelm the border guards. That's concrete planning, not "similar circumstances and appearance".
You turn away boats before they land, right?

 

[laughing dog]

It's not thoughtcrime. By joining the caravan, they have taken concrete steps to further their plan.

The only you can know that is too read their minds - thought crime. Or do you think you are Tom Cruise in Minority Report?

It certainly does not mean "open borders".

This straw man is an example of an unthinking crime against reason.

 

[untermensche]

It's not thoughtcrime. By joining the caravan, they have taken concrete steps to further their plan.

You forgot... their plan for world domination and control of the precious bodily fluids.

 

[Derec]

The only you can know that is too read their minds - thought crime.

No. I can read their statements given to writers for publications such as NY Times, some of which I quoted throughout this thread.

Or do you think you are Tom Cruise in Minority Report?

This straw man is an example of an unthinking crime against reason.

It's not. The "argument" of people on the pro-caravan side is that we must let them in no matter what.

 

[laughing dog]

The only you can know that is too read their minds - thought crime.

No. I can read their statements given to writers for publications such as NY Times, some of which I quoted throughout this thread.

What you are reading are thoughts, not actions. So, those are, at best, thought crimes at this time. Duh.

It's not. The "argument" of people on the pro-caravan side is that we must let them in no matter what.

That is a blatant falsehood. A number of posters in this thread - including me - argue that they should be properly processed according to US law. Are you under the incredibly stupid delusion that means every one must be let in no matter what?

 

[bilby]

It's not thoughtcrime. By joining the caravan, they have taken concrete steps to further their plan.


Of course they can. As long as concrete steps have been taken.

I am increasingly convinced that the Americans who use the word 'freedom' most often have exactly no idea what the fuck the word even means.

It certainly does not mean "open borders".

It also doesn't mean declaring someone who has expressed intent to apply for asylum in accordance with US and international law as 'illegal'.

Your country defends its borders. Why can't ours?

Or do you think that he needs to wait and see what you do when you get to the checkout, before deciding that you are planning to commit a crime? After all, if someone else with similar circumstances and appearance to you stole stuff from that shop before, by your logic, it's reasonable for him to declare you 'illegal' preemptively.

Many of these people have already been deported. And others have bragged that they plan to sneak in or rush the border as a large groups to overwhelm the border guards. That's concrete planning, not "similar circumstances and appearance".
You turn away boats before they land, right?

I don't do anything of the sort. My government does, and I lobby against their inhumane and probably illegal actions - and look forward to their being thrown out of office in a landslide at the next election.

You take bribes from Russia to support Putin, right?

 

[RavenSky]

I'm still laughing at the use of the word "vanguard" in this context.

me too

 

[RavenSky]

I don't want to rain on anyone's parade, but 'vanguard' to mean 'the leading elements of a military force' is perfectly legitimate, and not only correct usage, but probably the original usage of that word, with the definitions suggesting innovation being derived from that more technically correct usage.

A military column has a van, and a rear. These have a vanguard, and a rearguard.

It's perfectly good English to use the word 'vanguard' as Derec has used it in this thread.

IF you are referring to the migrants as a military operation. Given the trumpsters' hair-on-fire nonsense about the migrants being an "invasion", maybe he is... but in the normal sense, a migrant group is in no way similar to a military column.

 

[bilby]

I don't want to rain on anyone's parade, but 'vanguard' to mean 'the leading elements of a military force' is perfectly legitimate, and not only correct usage, but probably the original usage of that word, with the definitions suggesting innovation being derived from that more technically correct usage.

A military column has a van, and a rear. These have a vanguard, and a rearguard.

It's perfectly good English to use the word 'vanguard' as Derec has used it in this thread.

IF you are referring to the migrants as a military operation. Given the trumpsters' hair-on-fire nonsense about the migrants being an "invasion", maybe he is... but in the normal sense, a migrant group is in no way similar to a military column.

Well he clearly is using the word in that context. There's nothing wrong with his English. It's just his reasoning that's broken.

 

[ZiprHead]

Wrong. I am a US citizen. I came here legally.

Why?

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

I came here legally.

So are every single one of the people in the caravan. Unless and until any of them try to sneak across our border without proper documentation.

Which is all “legally” means in this context. It means you filled out a form, waited for some idiotic government employee bureaucrats to finally read that form and do a google search for your name before stamping it with a stamp.

That’s it. That’s the full extent of what it means to be here “legally.” A fucking google search and a stupid stamp.

It changes absolutley nothing about you fundamentally or says absolutley nothing about you fundamentally. There are no magical qualities. You filled out a form. End of “legal migration process.”

 

[ZiprHead]

 

[PyramidHead]

Well, that's bullshit. Why can't people take responsibility for their own lives and not blames others?

Because in this case they aren't actually responsible and others are to blame. Just calling it like I see it.

It's not the fault of the US. The US is not responsible for the world. Do these people have no independent agency?

Pulling up roots and traveling thousands of miles to abandon their former homes in search of something better is an act of independent agency. Or is that only noble when Europeans do it?

 

[untermensche]

Maybe these people have been fooled by the words on the Statue of Liberty?

Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!