The vanguard of the Caravan is already in Mexico City, more than halfway to the border

[Derec]

You actually have to talk to them first to know this.

Talk to them by all means. But often, asylum seekers lie.
Thousands Could Be Deported As Government Targets Asylum Mills' Clients

Is fleeing the effects of climate change good enough?

Definitely not.

 

[Derec]

Such bullshit. Not having legitimate claims to asylum IS WHY THEY HAVE HEARINGS.
Wanting them to have hearings to which they are LEGALLY ENTITLED is NOT wanting "open borders" or misusing the asylum system.

If you want them to be allowed to reside in US before it has been determined who is eligible and who is not. That just invites abuse. Again, just look to Europe. Millions of mass migrants are seeking asylum because they know they will get to live in EU for years if not forever, even if their claims are denied.

That is really just alt-right blather characterizations, from bigots who want to maintain their privilege.
As usual, consider the source of the characterizations - that alone should suffice to dismiss them.

Blah blah name calling blah blah.
This migrant caravan has been covered extensively. Most are in it because they want to make more money. Some list concerns over gang violence but even that is not legitimate asylum ground. It is amazing that the media, very sympathetic toward this caravan, has not uncovered one story of one caravan migrant who has a story of actual persecution.

 

[untermensche]

Is fleeing the effects of climate change good enough?

Definitely not.

Why not?

 

[Derec]

Why not?

Because asylum is for political persecution. It is not meant to be used for large-scale migration for economic reasons.

If you allow climate change, literally billions could request asylum in US. What then?

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Because asylum is for political persecution.

That is misleading. Asylum is for X. X includes political persecution. BUT Asylum is not ONLY for political persecution...because X is a > set than just political persecution.

So, for example, when people flee from gangs that are raping and killing people if you don't join and the local govt is corrupted by the gangs into allowing it, then that is also acceptable to flee and seek asylum somewhere for that reason.

Politics is just a word. It's not morally or legally the necessary element of asylum, though politics is so loosely defined that it can also cover gangs corrupting governments.

 

[Derec]

Because asylum is for political persecution.

That is misleading. Asylum is for X.

And according to pro-caravan leftists, X should be whatever it takes to let all these caravaners in. Even "climate change" according to Untermensche.

Another big problem: anybody can say anything to asylum judges. There is no guarantee they are not lying through their teeth. Especially when there are a lot of Americans hell-bent on allowing these migrants in and who would do anything to help them do it.

 

[laughing dog]

If you allow climate change, literally billions could request asylum in US. What then?

Then you deal with it under established processes and norms. Which is not what we are doing now.

 

[untermensche]

Why not?

Because asylum is for political persecution. It is not meant to be used for large-scale migration for economic reasons.

If you allow climate change, literally billions could request asylum in US. What then?

It is called taking responsibility for your actions.

If your actions cause people to flee there is no magic line between political and economic.

 

[Elixir]

If you allow climate change, literally billions could request asylum in US. What then?

Billions can already REQUEST asylum. Anyone without a legitimate case for it is wasting their time - as long as the system works as the law prescribes. You want to tear down the law.
Better get busy with that, little one - alt-whitism will seem like last week's wet dream by the time 2020 elections roll around.

 

[Elixir]

Such bullshit. Not having legitimate claims to asylum IS WHY THEY HAVE HEARINGS.
Wanting them to have hearings to which they are LEGALLY ENTITLED is NOT wanting "open borders" or misusing the asylum system.

If you want them to be allowed to reside in US before it has been determined who is eligible and who is not. That just invites abuse. Again, just look to Europe. Millions of mass migrants are seeking asylum because they know they will get to live in EU for years if not forever, even if their claims are denied.

Please don't put words in my mouth. Your reaching inferences are so far off-base...
Suppose that instead of a $220,000,000.00 political stunt using the military for purposes proscribed in the Constitution, that same money was spent on personnel and equipment to process asylum claims? There would be asylum judges sitting around playing poker with each other by now. No caravan, no howling from bleeding heart lib'ruls, and - OH, right -
no grandstanding political attempt to manufacture a faux crisis to deflect attention from the fact of a criminal President trying to undermine the US Government... never mind, then...

 

[fast]

Migrant mom falls off border fence, is impaled in front of her kids

That's US's fault for building fences and certainly not the illegal migrant's fault for climbing over a border fence illegally! </progresso-authoritarian>

Authoritarian? No way!

 

[bilby]

What news do you read? Whatever it is, you should consider trying a new source.

Pretty much all news outlets covered their storming of the border in southern Mexico and seriously injuring several Mexican police.

Last week Al Jazeera reported that about six hundred of the caravan were caught and arrested illegally crossing into the U.S.

The BBC just reported that about one hundred of those involved in the storming of the border incident yesterday where the U.S. border patrol used tear gas to repel have been deported by Mexico.

And this, you would say, is a justified use of tear gas? To attack desperate poor people and their families? I don't share your view of who is in the wrong here. Nothing justifies treating people as dispensable, least of all the interests of a nation that (a) played a large role in creating the conditions of their hardship and (b) have no moral standing to denounce their migration without also denouncing the colonization that established America itself, far more invasive and destructive than anything the caravan could muster.

You know, the United States exercises plenty of leniency and restraint in which of its laws it chooses to enforce and how. Something being illegal is not, in itself, a license for any and all measures of retaliation to be taken against the behavior. Lots of laws are never enforced, or only lightly enforced until they are finally taken off the books. So, I'm not impressed by appeals to the law regarding how to treat fellow human beings who want to live somewhere other than their place of birth. And I'm not scared of poor people who attack police officers. I'm scared of police officers who attack poor people.

You have a strange understanding of the word, "attack".

Five or six hundred people running at the border guards while throwing stones and bottles at them is hardly a peaceful action. Were the guards supposed to just stand there and be run over? The guards knew what the mob had done to the Mexican police. The use of mustard gas to break up that mob did no permanent harm, only temporary discomfort. A physical confrontation to stop them would have resulted in serious injuries on both sides.

You have a strange understanding of the word, "attack".

Five or six hundred people running at the border guards while throwing stones and bottles at them is hardly a peaceful action. Were the guards supposed to just stand there and be run over? The guards knew what the mob had done to the Mexican police. The use of mustard gas to break up that mob did no permanent harm, only temporary discomfort. A physical confrontation to stop them would have resulted in serious injuries on both sides.

Don't fall for the propaganda. You make it seem like they came running at the border fence like a horde of barbarians. Many of them were just standing around the fence looking over the border, and a lot of the rock throwing was in retaliation to seeing children getting fucking gassed.

As usual, I can always count on the proponents of 'small government' to swallow every rationalization that uniformed agents of state power provide for themselves. You talk about the news media as if there is any way to get as charitable a treatment of the Hondurans, Guatemalans, and El Salvadorians as they give to the guys in riot gear with chemical weapons. One side has the benefit of official spokespeople, teams of lawyers, and decades of quid-pro-quo with the major broadcasting companies who disseminate the news. The other side gets to comment on their perspective if they happen to be asked about it by a reporter with a translator. I know a little about history, so I'll continue to assume that the border patrol agents are doing what they usually do, which is to protect the interests of the wealthy at the expense of everyone else under the guise of making us safer.

Yet again dude, where the hell do you get your news? Mexican news agencies reported that the mob broke through the Mexican police line (a few were caught) then through the fence on the Mexican side of the Tijuana river. Hundreds then stormed across the Tijuana river and rushed the fence on the U.S. side of the river. This is where the confrontation happened and the mob was broken up with mustard gas. The Mexican authorities only identified about a hundred of them and deported them.

ETA:
Or is it that you don't read news reports and just make up stories to fit what you want to believe?

The U.S. news media seem to like to show video of people standing at the fence at International Park or Playa Tijuana. That isn't where this incident happened.

Your suggestion that mustard gas was used seems rather implausible; Mustard gas is quite lethal to unprotected persons, and as it is absorbed through the skin, a mere gas mask is inadequate protection against it. It's also highly persistent, and decontamination of areas where it has been used is difficult, dangerous and expensive.

The possession of mustard gas other than for defensive research by the USA would be a breach of the 1997 Chemical Weapons Convention; Its use would cause a major international diplomatic incident.

 

[skepticalbip]

You have a strange understanding of the word, "attack".

Five or six hundred people running at the border guards while throwing stones and bottles at them is hardly a peaceful action. Were the guards supposed to just stand there and be run over? The guards knew what the mob had done to the Mexican police. The use of mustard gas to break up that mob did no permanent harm, only temporary discomfort. A physical confrontation to stop them would have resulted in serious injuries on both sides.

You have a strange understanding of the word, "attack".

Five or six hundred people running at the border guards while throwing stones and bottles at them is hardly a peaceful action. Were the guards supposed to just stand there and be run over? The guards knew what the mob had done to the Mexican police. The use of mustard gas to break up that mob did no permanent harm, only temporary discomfort. A physical confrontation to stop them would have resulted in serious injuries on both sides.

Don't fall for the propaganda. You make it seem like they came running at the border fence like a horde of barbarians. Many of them were just standing around the fence looking over the border, and a lot of the rock throwing was in retaliation to seeing children getting fucking gassed.

As usual, I can always count on the proponents of 'small government' to swallow every rationalization that uniformed agents of state power provide for themselves. You talk about the news media as if there is any way to get as charitable a treatment of the Hondurans, Guatemalans, and El Salvadorians as they give to the guys in riot gear with chemical weapons. One side has the benefit of official spokespeople, teams of lawyers, and decades of quid-pro-quo with the major broadcasting companies who disseminate the news. The other side gets to comment on their perspective if they happen to be asked about it by a reporter with a translator. I know a little about history, so I'll continue to assume that the border patrol agents are doing what they usually do, which is to protect the interests of the wealthy at the expense of everyone else under the guise of making us safer.

Yet again dude, where the hell do you get your news? Mexican news agencies reported that the mob broke through the Mexican police line (a few were caught) then through the fence on the Mexican side of the Tijuana river. Hundreds then stormed across the Tijuana river and rushed the fence on the U.S. side of the river. This is where the confrontation happened and the mob was broken up with mustard gas. The Mexican authorities only identified about a hundred of them and deported them.

ETA:
Or is it that you don't read news reports and just make up stories to fit what you want to believe?

The U.S. news media seem to like to show video of people standing at the fence at International Park or Playa Tijuana. That isn't where this incident happened.

Your suggestion that mustard gas was used seems rather implausible; Mustard gas is quite lethal to unprotected persons, and as it is absorbed through the skin, a mere gas mask is inadequate protection against it. It's also highly persistent, and decontamination of areas where it has been used is difficult, dangerous and expensive.

The possession of mustard gas other than for defensive research by the USA would be a breach of the 1997 Chemical Weapons Convention; Its use would cause a major international diplomatic incident.

You are right. That was a brain fart on my part. I intended to write pepper gas. That is similar to pepper spray, the kind of stuff that animal rights activists insist be used to deter attacks by grizzly bears rather than mace or a high power rifle. Reports are that the pepper spray doesn't really work that well against grizzlies and Alaskans generally carry more powerful deterrents as backup when they are in forests.

 

[ZiprHead]

You are right. That was a brain fart on my part. I intended to write pepper gas. That is similar to pepper spray, the kind of stuff that animal rights activists insist be used to deter attacks by grizzly bears rather than mace or a high power rifle. Reports are that the pepper spray doesn't really work that well against grizzlies and Alaskans generally carry more powerful deterrents as backup when they are in forests.

Hey, a condiment is a condiment. AMIRITE?

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Because asylum is for political persecution.

That is misleading. Asylum is for X.

And according to pro-caravan leftists, X should be whatever it takes to let all these caravaners in. Even "climate change" according to Untermensche.

Another big problem: anybody can say anything to asylum judges. There is no guarantee they are not lying through their teeth. Especially when there are a lot of Americans hell-bent on allowing these migrants in and who would do anything to help them do it.

You are changing the subject. You were wrong.

 

[ideologyhunter]

To all proud MAGA hat wearers everywhere in the 50 states (not the territories)....
Join with the Trump Foundation to send a cheery Christmas gift from America to the Caravan. Your dollars help our President keep our borders safe, inviolate, and white as rice, while each gift will give Senor and Senora Burrito Breath and little Esai a gift with a powerful message.
DJT 1 TEAR GAS PINATA One hard whack will crack open the shell of this gaily painted ceramic tank, releasing 20 compressed pounds of pepper spray (that's extra-hot habanero, caballero!) on a border-jumping family. Lo siento, amigos. FOR A DONATION OF $100.
DJT 2 MAGA SERAPE Beautiful serape woven from Chinese wool has 25 tracking devices concealed in the 4 magic letters. You can run into a gully full of yucca but this serape will still holler, 'Soy aqui!!!' FOR A DONATION OF $80.
DJT 3 COMPLIMENTARY CELL PHONE Beautiful White House logo phone is actually a Kit Kat bar wrapped in foil, with a laminated screen glued on. Eat it, amigo, because no one from here is going to call you. (MAGA hat wearers can have an easy conscience: these Kit Kats are way past expiration.) FOR A DONATION OF $20.
DJT 4 SAUERKRAUT EMPENADAS (PKG. OF 6) Hilarity will ensue when our border-crossing friends bite into this delicious looking empenada -- it's stuffed with sauerkraut from the Mar-A-Lago kitchens. There's no free almuerzo, jefe. FOR A DONATION OF $20.
Here's a Christmas message to all our immigrant friends: there's a legal way to enter the USA. It's called Stay Home Until You Hear From Us.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Your suggestion that mustard gas was used seems rather implausible; Mustard gas is quite lethal to unprotected persons, and as it is absorbed through the skin, a mere gas mask is inadequate protection against it. It's also highly persistent, and decontamination of areas where it has been used is difficult, dangerous and expensive.

The possession of mustard gas other than for defensive research by the USA would be a breach of the 1997 Chemical Weapons Convention; Its use would cause a major international diplomatic incident.

Minor point: While it can be absorbed through the skin it's a lot more lethal if you inhale it. Gas masks are therefore definitely of benefit.

 

[TSwizzle]

Cracks starting to show;

Hundreds of migrants begin to 'self-deport' back to Central America as TB, chicken pox and lice become endemic. Tijuana's Health Department revealed on Thursday that there are cases of migrants suffering from tuberculosis, chickenpox, skin infections, and there is now a risk of an hepatitis outbreak due to the squalid conditions. So far, there have been three confirmed cases of tuberculosis, four of chickenpox, and four cases of HIV/AIDS.

But with Trump's continuing tough rhetoric and US immigration 'metering' the number of asylum applications to between 40 and 80 cases per day, the reality of having to spend weeks or even months camped out on blankets and rags in a fetid limbo is hitting home. Mexican officials revealed that around 200 migrants volunteered this week for repatriation, with more than a hundred having already flown home from Tijuana's airport Monday. A further 98 were forcibly removed after Sunday's violent clashes at the border

DailyMail

The activists that encouraged this "caravan" ought to be ashamed of themselves.

 

[PyramidHead]

Cracks starting to show;

Hundreds of migrants begin to 'self-deport' back to Central America as TB, chicken pox and lice become endemic. Tijuana's Health Department revealed on Thursday that there are cases of migrants suffering from tuberculosis, chickenpox, skin infections, and there is now a risk of an hepatitis outbreak due to the squalid conditions. So far, there have been three confirmed cases of tuberculosis, four of chickenpox, and four cases of HIV/AIDS.

But with Trump's continuing tough rhetoric and US immigration 'metering' the number of asylum applications to between 40 and 80 cases per day, the reality of having to spend weeks or even months camped out on blankets and rags in a fetid limbo is hitting home. Mexican officials revealed that around 200 migrants volunteered this week for repatriation, with more than a hundred having already flown home from Tijuana's airport Monday. A further 98 were forcibly removed after Sunday's violent clashes at the border

DailyMail

The activists that encouraged this "caravan" ought to be ashamed of themselves.

So... the fact that the migrants are now getting sick means we should be even LESS concerned about their well being?

 

[Derec]

So... the fact that the migrants are now getting sick means we should be even LESS concerned about their well being?

That they are carrying serious diseases like tuberculosis means we should not just be letting them in.

By the way they already caught a MS-13 banger who was part of the caravan.
Border Patrol Arrests MS-13 Member Who Traveled with Caravan