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The World-O-Meter Thread

Not at all! You are the one who insisted that it was exponential, and I showed it was not.

You insisted that it was linear, and therefore not any kind of non-linear function.

The daily increase has been roughly linear. Which means that the overall numbers are not increasing exponentially. It's not that hard to understand.

It is not linear. I showed that in great detail in my post. Then you dishonestly ignored all that and switched to a red-herring about which exact non-linear function it is, when you're the one who started by casting linear and exponential as the only two options, as though you don't realize that Quadratic is non-linear too.
The 1day increase in deaths from April 3 to 4 was 35% greater than the 1day increase just 2 days prior. How is that "roughly linear"?
And a model presuming linear increase from March 31 predicts only 1/4th the total number of deaths 3 weeks from now than what is predicted by the actual data as of April 4th, when you claimed it was linear. When the data predict 4 times what a linear model predicts, then the data are not showing a "roughly linear" pattern.

"daily cases look very linear" "Which would be linear, not exponentiell."
Are you so upset you switched to German at the end?

That's a direct quote of your own words. Are you upset you've just mocked yourself for poor spelling? I have no need to misquote you to make you look stupid.

The difference between exactly which type of non-linear growth function with an increase in number of NEW cases per day is an irrelevant red-herring to the core discussion, especially since there isn't enough statistical power with only 5 recent days in question to test for a difference in goodness-of-fit between specific non-linear models. Plus, Quadratic functions have more parameters and thus are less parsimonious.
I am not arguing that the correct model is quadratic, only that that the growth curve looks that way when dailies are increasing linearly.
The thing is that models predict that the growth increases exponentially at first but then slows down. The fact that we are no longer increasing exponentially indicates that we have entered the slowdown phase. That's why exponential vs. non-exponential is significant. Linear vs. non-linear does not have the same significance.

Linear vs. non-linear has massive significance. Again, your claim of linear predicted 1/4 the deaths and 1/3 the cases of what the actual trajectory of the data predicted up through April 4th. Linear is very simple and the data from March 1 to April 4 showed a definitively non-linear pattern, which is any pattern where the growth rate is not constant.

Almost all other countries have had essentially linear or declining growth for the past 3 weeks, and non ever had the degree of sustained non-linear growth of the US.
Italy or Spain for example have also had a lot more per-capita cases and a lot more deaths. It is not surprising they are further along the progression curve than us.

They never had more than a week of non-linear growth. Most of their population is still uninfected, so their containment into a linear function is not b/c they hit some wall of no one left to infect b/c of a smaller population. It's because they employed measures to contain the spread.

Look at the graph below. It controls for when the disease took hold in each country by using "Day 1" as the day when 100 diagnosed cases were reached in that country.
But it doesn't control for the population size.

Each country's first 2 weeks look similar, then the US begins to separate and by day 18 the US slope takes off and is far steeper than all other countries for the past 3 weeks, including Italy and Spain. The steepness of those slopes correspond to the degree of non-linear growth.
No it doesn't. The steepness is the result of US having a much bigger population than Spain or Italy or Germany.

As you can see, all the other countries had only a about one early week of mild non-linear growth then flattened into linear growth (same # of new cases per day), while the US has had extreme non-linear growth for 3 weeks.
Again, the lack of normalization for population paints a misleading picture.
And your excuse about population size is irrelevant, b/c it has no direct impact on growth rate.
It's no excuse and of course it doesn't. But it does have an impact on the graph you posted. Not normalizing for population exaggerates the slope for one.

It only directly impacts how many total cases there could eventually be, which is the maximum height the line eventually reaches, but not how quickly it gets there.
Never claimed otherwise. How quickly it gets there is impacted by distancing efforts for example.

So, here you directly contradict yourself. You repeatedly disregard the data base on an argument that pop size needs to be controlled, when in fact it has no relevance unless you assume that pop size impacts growth rate, which you just claimed you don't assume.

If you take a line of 10,000 dominoes vs a line of 100,000 and keep other variables constant, then you push both starting dominoes over, after 5 seconds the number of dominoes knocked over will be the same. The longer line (bigger pop) simply has more possible dominoes that could be knocked over eventually if the process isn't stopped.
True for dominoes, but is not applicable here.

Yes it is relevant, which is why you just blindly dismiss it without argument. It shows that pop size does not impact growth rate, thus it is invalid to use per-capita stats when talking about growth rate. You have no logic as to why pop size should be used, it just manipulates the data to make it look better for the US.
 
Something I just noticed: A lot more young(-ish) people seem to be getting hospitalized and dying in the USA/New York than e.g. in Italy: According to NY's Covid-19 tracker 17,4% of the state's dead are younger than 60, even 7% younger than 50. In Italy, only 5% are younger than 60. Any idea on what might cause this stark contrast? Other than maybe undercounting elderly victims presumed to have died of old age, but that would be exptected to be a factor in Italy at least as much as in New York?
 
If we only had a president

NZ is 39 days after their first case.
Their government started preparing for the epidemic in January a month before their first case was reported on February 28. Less than four weeks later the whole country was on lockdown. The US started dismantling its entire pandemic response apparatus as soon as Donald Trump took office. When its first case showed up on January 20, Trump had some kind of hunch that doing nothing was in his best interest. 65 days later the PINO declared an emergency, disavowed all responsibility and did nothing. So here we are, folks.

Notice that the USA has 180 times the NZ death rate per million people. I know that NZ's small death sample probably skews the number somewhat, but ...
wouldn't it be nice to have that kind of problem here?

US-NZ04-07.jpg

1356 dead already today in the US at 1:25pm Eastern. Looks like a record performance.
 
NZ is 39 days after their first case.
Their government started preparing for the epidemic in January a month before their first case was reported on February 28. Less than four weeks later the whole country was on lockdown. The US started dismantling its entire pandemic response apparatus as soon as Donald Trump took office. When its first case showed up on January 20, Trump had some kind of hunch that doing nothing was in his best interest. 65 days later the PINO declared an emergency, disavowed all responsibility and did nothing. So here we are, folks.

Notice that the USA has 180 times the NZ death rate per million people. I know that NZ's small death sample probably skews the number somewhat, but ...
wouldn't it be nice to have that kind of problem here?

View attachment 26962

1356 dead already today in the US at 1:25pm Eastern. Looks like a record performance.

Who knew other countries would be more authoritarian with their lockdowns than Trump has been, who the left has constantly called an authoritarian.

oh, the irony of them calling for Trump to actually be authoritarian now!
 
NZ is 39 days after their first case.
Their government started preparing for the epidemic in January a month before their first case was reported on February 28. Less than four weeks later the whole country was on lockdown. The US started dismantling its entire pandemic response apparatus as soon as Donald Trump took office. When its first case showed up on January 20, Trump had some kind of hunch that doing nothing was in his best interest. 65 days later the PINO declared an emergency, disavowed all responsibility and did nothing. So here we are, folks.

Notice that the USA has 180 times the NZ death rate per million people. I know that NZ's small death sample probably skews the number somewhat, but ...
wouldn't it be nice to have that kind of problem here?

View attachment 26962

1356 dead already today in the US at 1:25pm Eastern. Looks like a record performance.

Who knew other countries would be more authoritarian with their lockdowns than Trump has been, who the left has constantly called an authoritarian.

oh, the irony of them calling for Trump to actually be authoritarian now!
Asking for competence is not asking for authoritarianism.
 
Something I just noticed: A lot more young(-ish) people seem to be getting hospitalized and dying in the USA/New York than e.g. in Italy: According to NY's Covid-19 tracker 17,4% of the state's dead are younger than 60, even 7% younger than 50. In Italy, only 5% are younger than 60. Any idea on what might cause this stark contrast? Other than maybe undercounting elderly victims presumed to have died of old age, but that would be expected to be a factor in Italy at least as much as in New York?
Italy's population is significantly older on average than the US', that may be relevant to consider. There have also been many reported cases of mass infection among young people congregating in bars/nightclubs/beaches etc, made worse by the fact that many institutions were already on Spring Break before the social distancing regimes began in earnest.
 
Something I just noticed: A lot more young(-ish) people seem to be getting hospitalized and dying in the USA/New York than e.g. in Italy: According to NY's Covid-19 tracker 17,4% of the state's dead are younger than 60, even 7% younger than 50. In Italy, only 5% are younger than 60. Any idea on what might cause this stark contrast? Other than maybe undercounting elderly victims presumed to have died of old age, but that would be exptected to be a factor in Italy at least as much as in New York?

Race could play a role.
Black Americans Face Alarming Rates of Coronavirus Infection in Some States

Which is ironic given that early in the pandemic some black nationalist/supremacist types claimed that black people were immune from Coronavirus because of melanin.
 
Something I just noticed: A lot more young(-ish) people seem to be getting hospitalized and dying in the USA/New York than e.g. in Italy: According to NY's Covid-19 tracker 17,4% of the state's dead are younger than 60, even 7% younger than 50. In Italy, only 5% are younger than 60. Any idea on what might cause this stark contrast? Other than maybe undercounting elderly victims presumed to have died of old age, but that would be exptected to be a factor in Italy at least as much as in New York?

Viral load? It seems the more exposure the worse it can get. In NYC everyone lives on top of another, takes public transport, gets advice from the mayor to go to Chinatown to eat. Also, probably, obesity. Viruses thrive when there's a lot of free glucose. Americans are fat.
 
Something I just noticed: A lot more young(-ish) people seem to be getting hospitalized and dying in the USA/New York than e.g. in Italy: According to NY's Covid-19 tracker 17,4% of the state's dead are younger than 60, even 7% younger than 50. In Italy, only 5% are younger than 60. Any idea on what might cause this stark contrast? Other than maybe undercounting elderly victims presumed to have died of old age, but that would be exptected to be a factor in Italy at least as much as in New York?

Race could play a role.
Black Americans Face Alarming Rates of Coronavirus Infection in Some States

Which is ironic given that early in the pandemic some black nationalist/supremacist types claimed that black people were immune from Coronavirus because of melanin.

A lot of blacks work in public transport/at the airport/etc. Much exposure to the elite class who caught the virus on a ski trip and passed it on through security. The virus of the elite is causing havoc on the poor.
 
The US started dismantling its entire pandemic response apparatus as soon as Donald Trump took office.

???

No, the White House didn’t ‘dissolve’ its pandemic response office. I was there.

It has been alleged by multiple officials of the Obama administration, including in The Post, that the president and his then-national security adviser, John Bolton, “dissolved the office” at the White House in charge of pandemic preparedness. Because I led the very directorate assigned that mission, the counterproliferation and biodefense office, for a year and then handed it off to another official who still holds the post, I know the charge is specious.
 
You insisted that it was linear, and therefore not any kind of non-linear function.
I did not insist the total case count was linear because it obviously isn't. I merely pointed out that the daily case counts which you listed were linear which excludes exponential growth.

It is not linear. I showed that in great detail in my post.
Your initial claim was that it was exponential. I showed that it wasn't, including by pointing out that daily new cases were linear, which excludes exponential growth.

When you dishonestly ignored all that and switched to a red-herring about which exact non-linear function it is, when you're the one who started by casting linear and exponential as the only two options, as though you don't realize that Quadratic is non-linear too.
Your original claim was that it was exponential. Now you are trying to pretend that it was not.


The 1day increase in deaths from April 3 to 4 was 35% greater than the 1day increase just 2 days prior. How is that "roughly linear"?
You can't just look at a few cherry-picked days because of fluctuations. If you look at last 2 weeks overall, it looks more of less linear and certainly not exponential.


And a model presuming linear increase from March 31 predicts only 1/4th the total number of deaths 3 weeks from now than what is predicted by the actual data as of April 4th, when you claimed it was linear. When the data predict 4 times what a linear model predicts, then the data are not showing a "roughly linear" pattern.
Show your work.

I have no need to misquote you to make you look stupid.

You make yourself look stupid by pretending that anything non-linear is essentially no different than exponential.

Linear vs. non-linear has massive significance. Again, your claim of linear predicted 1/4 the deaths and 1/3 the cases of what the actual trajectory of the data predicted up through April 4th. Linear is very simple and the data from March 1 to April 4 showed a definitively non-linear pattern, which is any pattern where the growth rate is not constant.

I never claimed that the total numbers are linear. Stop trying to misrepresent what I wrote. I just claimed that it is no longer exponential, and the daily new cases being linear proves that because new daily cases would have to be exponential for the total cases to be exponential. It's simple math.

The reason why this is significant is because early behavior of outbreaks is exponential, and no longer increasing exponentially means we are no longer in that early phase.

They never had more than a week of non-linear growth.
BS on that.
Most of their population is still uninfected, so their containment into a linear function is not b/c they hit some wall of no one left to infect b/c of a smaller population. It's because they employed measures to contain the spread.
So have we.


Look at the graph below. It controls for when the disease took hold in each country by using "Day 1" as the day when 100 diagnosed cases were reached in that country.
But it doesn't control for the population size.

So, here you directly contradict yourself. You repeatedly disregard the data base on an argument that pop size needs to be controlled, when in fact it has no relevance unless you assume that pop size impacts growth rate, which you just claimed you don't assume.
It doesn't necessarily affect the growth rate, but it does affect the actual slope, and when you plot two very different populations without normalizing for population number, you get misleading results.

Yes it is relevant, which is why you just blindly dismiss it without argument. It shows that pop size does not impact growth rate, thus it is invalid to use per-capita stats when talking about growth rate. You have no logic as to why pop size should be used, it just manipulates the data to make it look better for the US.

It does not necessarily affect the growth rate, but it does affect the slope of the graph. Two very different things.
 
The US started dismantling its entire pandemic response apparatus as soon as Donald Trump took office.

???

No, the White House didn’t ‘dissolve’ its pandemic response office. I was there.

It has been alleged by multiple officials of the Obama administration, including in The Post, that the president and his then-national security adviser, John Bolton, “dissolved the office” at the White House in charge of pandemic preparedness. Because I led the very directorate assigned that mission, the counterproliferation and biodefense office, for a year and then handed it off to another official who still holds the post, I know the charge is specious.

Yep, Trump never fired any pandemic team. It's leftist myth:

https://www.politifact.com/factchec...ities-are-sharing-misleading-post-about-trum/

No wonder Trump always says, "Fake news" and he's right. Media slanders him non-stop.
 
Viruses thrive when there's a lot of free glucose.
[citation needed]
Why would free glucose even affect viruses? They are not bacteria. They cannot feed on glucose like bacteria in a petri dish. You put some viruses in a growth culture with glucose and nothing will happen. They need suitable cells to replicate because they lack a metabolism of their own.

Americans are fat.
True and associated diseases like hypertension and diabetes are risk factors. And US being fatter than Italy could definitely account for more younger people getting very sick and dying. But also, rates of those diseases are also higher for blacks. Smoking is also a risk factor because it damages the lungs, as do smokable illicit drugs like marijuana, meth or crack. I don't know how that tracks with race and age though.
 
Viruses thrive when there's a lot of free glucose.
[citation needed]
Why would free glucose even affect viruses? They are not bacteria. They cannot feed on glucose like bacteria in a petri dish. You put some viruses in a growth culture with glucose and nothing will happen. They need suitable cells to replicate because they lack a metabolism of their own.

Glycolytic control of vacuolar-type ATPase activity: A mechanism to regulate influenza viral infection

As new influenza virus strains emerge, finding new mechanisms to control infection is imperative. In this study, we found that we could control influenza infection of mammalian cells by altering the level of glucose given to cells. Higher glucose concentrations induced a dose-specific increase in influenza infection. Linking influenza virus infection with glycolysis, we found that viral replication was significantly reduced after cells were treated with glycolytic inhibitors. Addition of extracellular ATP after glycolytic inhibition restored influenza infection. We also determined that higher levels of glucose promoted the assembly of the vacuolar-type ATPase within cells, and increased vacuolar-type ATPase proton-transport activity. The increase of viral infection via high glucose levels could be reversed by inhibition of the proton pump, linking glucose metabolism, vacuolar-type ATPase activity, and influenza viral infection. Taken together, we propose that altering glucose metabolism may be a potential new approach to inhibit influenza viral infection.

So everyone on the Keto diet while in quarantine.
 
Actual capacity is a tiny fraction of the anticipated load. Did you draw that deceptive graph yourself, Derec? What's the source?

If you actually had read my post, you'd have seen that the point of me posting that picture was to show the shape of the curve. The line for "system capacity" was not the issue here. I agree it is too optimistic for most places, but again that wasn't the point of why I posted it.

Yes, the little red line at the bottom represents ICU capacity.
Your graph is too pessimistic on the other hand, unless it refers to a hypothetical scenario of no measures whatsoever. It predicts an ICU demand of more than 10x the capacity. Not even Italy had that. And it also assumes no increase in ICU capacity whatsoever.

But thanks Derec for trying again (and again and again) to minimize the situation
I am not minimizing anything.

that has ALREADY visited more death upon Americans IN A MONTH than the endless wars about which Cheato complains.
Yes, situation is serious. But at the same time, it is not as bad as some "sky is falling" people are claiming.
 

Yep, Trump never fired any pandemic team. It's leftist myth:

https://www.politifact.com/factchec...ities-are-sharing-misleading-post-about-trum/

No wonder Trump always says, "Fake news" and he's right. Media slanders him non-stop.

What's fascinating is that this epidemic is showing how tightly held people are in their bubbles. What news source does Elixer read and why didn't that news source inform him of this? There's also the story that the Trump administration did nothing for 70 days. Which is obviously bullshit.

January 31st

US declares health emergency, bans most travelers from China

WASHINGTON — The United States on Friday declared a public health emergency and announced significant entry restrictions because of a new virus that hit China and has spread to other nations.

Health and Human Services Secretary Alex Azar, who is coordinating the federal response, announced that President Donald Trump has signed an order that will temporarily bar entry to the U.S. of foreign nationals, other than immediate family of U.S. citizens and permanent residents, who have traveled in China within the last 14 days. The new restrictions take effect at 5 p.m. EST on Sunday.

Meanwhile, U.S. health officials issued a two-week quarantine order for the 195 Americans evacuated earlier this week from the Chinese city of Wuhan, provincial capital of Hubei province. It was the first time a federal quarantine has been ordered since the 1960s, when one was enacted over concern about the potential spread of smallpox, the CDC said.

We understand this action may seem drastic. We would rather be remembered for over-reacting than under-reacting,” the CDC’s Dr. Nancy Messonnier said. None of the Americans being housed at a Southern California military base has shown signs of illness.

Although scientists expect to see limited transmission of the virus between people with close contact, like within families, the instances of spread to people who may have had less exposure to the virus is worrying.
 
Viruses thrive when there's a lot of free glucose.
[citation needed]
Why would free glucose even affect viruses? They are not bacteria. They cannot feed on glucose like bacteria in a petri dish. You put some viruses in a growth culture with glucose and nothing will happen. They need suitable cells to replicate because they lack a metabolism of their own.

Americans are fat.
True and associated diseases like hypertension and diabetes are risk factors. And US being fatter than Italy could definitely account for more younger people getting very sick and dying. But also, rates of those diseases are also higher for blacks. Smoking is also a risk factor because it damages the lungs, as do smokable illicit drugs like marijuana, meth or crack. I don't know how that tracks with race and age though.

I bet you ten bucks to one of yours (without having googled and statistics) that Italians smoke much more cigarettes and marijuana than New Yorkers. meth and crack, probably not so much.
 
It's probably better if people go crazy and the economy is fucked, than if people die like flies and the economy is fucked.
Nobody wants people to die like flies. That's why it would be stupid to open things too soon. The active case numbers need to peak and then decay to some low level before we can ease restrictions. Then we need more testing.

Christmas is a very optimistic date for a return to any kind of normality - Shit, Christmas 2021 sounds optimistic to me. Finding an effective and safe vaccine against a coronavirus, and then mass producing and distributing it, in as little as two years, would be remarkable. Personally I doubt it is achievable.
Maybe we will not be fully normal until next year, but we definitely can't go on like this that long. It will be imperative to start relaxing restrictions by June. Open some businesses that are closed, have more people go back to work. Allow so socializing. Things like sports events, concerts, that can be allowed later. But in any case link it with enough testing so you can identify asymptomatic carriers (and spreaders) and quarantine them.

Also, monoclonal antibodies will be ready before the vaccine. Vaccine trains the immune system to make their own antibodies. Just giving people antibodies shortcircuits that and can be used for both prophylaxis and treatment. But unlike with a vaccine, foreign antibodies go away without immune system replenishing them, so treatment has to be given repeatedly. Nevertheless, it probably will be effective and could be ready within months. Maybe you have heard of the serum treatment? Well, that is the crude version of the antibody treatment. Serum of recovered patients has antibodies in it.
 
I bet you ten bucks to one of yours (without having googled and statistics) that Italians smoke much more cigarettes and marijuana than New Yorkers. meth and crack, probably not so much.

Yeah, not taking that bet. :)
 
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