There isn't really a 'freewill problem'.

[untermensche]

You created the command with your will.

You can do it any time you want.

Just tell your arm to move, give the command, and it will move.

Show me your evidence of a will that is independent of the brain.

The will works on the brain.

It cannot be independent of it to do that.

What you're asking is to show you something besides the will.

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You created the command with your will.

You can do it any time you want.

Just tell your arm to move, give the command, and it will move.

Still tryig to fill your balloon in a vacuum I see. Don't tell Emily Lake you're doing it on purpose - the dead pool - though .....

You carefully chose those words with your free will.

Your free will happens to be a little blind, that's all.

 

[ruby sparks]

Daniel Dennett, by the way, a prominent compatibilist philosopher, who says we have free will, agrees that the future that is going to happen is going to happen anyway. Go figure.

Ciao.

You know, that sounds very profound... but it isn't, not really. It's akin to saying that whatever the dice roll ends up being is whatever the dice roll ends up being. Or to saying that whichever hole the electron goes through is the hole that the electron goes through. It's a naively tautological statement that simply states that what one observes is what one observes.

Yeah. Sort of like that. But not really like that at all.

 

[untermensche]

Was the War of 1812 "going to happen"?

Was the Trump presidency "going to happen"?

How could someone say these things were "going to happen"?

How would they prove that?

 

[Treedbear]

You created the command with your will.

You can do it any time you want.

Just tell your arm to move, give the command, and it will move.

Show me your evidence of a will that is independent of the brain.

The will works on the brain.

It cannot be independent of it to do that.

What you're asking is to show you something besides the will.

...

I'm not at all sure what "The will works on the brain" means.

 

[untermensche]

The will works on the brain.

It cannot be independent of it to do that.

What you're asking is to show you something besides the will.

...

I'm not at all sure what "The will works on the brain" means.

If I will the arm to move I am giving a command to the motor cortex to move the arm.

The will has to be intimately connected to the brain to work on it.

Like possibly an effect of the brain that can have a feedback onto the brain.

That is an intimate connection.

 

[DBT]

Daniel Dennett, by the way, a prominent compatibilist philosopher, who says we have free will, agrees that the future that is going to happen is going to happen anyway. Go figure.

Ciao.

Yes. It is quite strange. I cannot figure.

 

[DBT]

Yes your brain followed a command.

The question was, what gave the command?

And what is the evidence for your claim?

The brain created the command. It resolved some problem, some conflict or contradiction, and produced a resulting action calculated to maximize harmony, efficiency and general serenity. That's my theory. But it's based on the fact that we have a brain which receives sensory inputs and produces muscle reactions via a nervous system. It's a complex system that is optimized to create adaptive solutions in a changing environment. The best model I know of to achieve that purpose is the theory of evolution. And for that same reason I find it highly probable that there is nothing extra-cogito involved, based on the evidence that such theories relating to cause and effect within the natural world always turn out (when the evidence comes in) to be false.

You created the command with your will.

You can do it any time you want.

Just tell your arm to move, give the command, and it will move.

Why do you keep repeating this when the evidence shows that it is the brain that is forming the experience of you moving your arm at will.

Given a malfunction of the brain you can't do anything at will.

It can get worse, to the point where the body is alive, the lights are on, sort of, but there is nobody home (at the risk of sounding flippant), so you need to be spoon fed because you don't recognize food or yourself or those around you.

The whole production of self acting in relation to the external world is the work of brain agency, not some spook as controller, no homunculus, just brain architecture and function.

 

[fromderinside]

You carefully chose those words with your free will.

Your free will happens to be a little blind, that's all.

Nothing is free in this world. There is no pot of gold at the end of any rainbow, shit floats.

Your turn.

 

[untermensche]

You carefully chose those words with your free will.

Your free will happens to be a little blind, that's all.

Nothing is free in this world. There is no pot of gold at the end of any rainbow, shit floats.

Your turn.

That is just what you freely say.

I would freely say something else.

I can freely say whatever I want.

 

[DBT]

You carefully chose those words with your free will.

Your free will happens to be a little blind, that's all.

Nothing is free in this world. There is no pot of gold at the end of any rainbow, shit floats.

Your turn.

That is just what you freely say.

I would freely say something else.

I can freely say whatever I want.

Whatever is said is said in response to what is read. The form of this response comes to mind while you are reading the post. Information is acquired by the senses unconsciously, conveyed to brain regions, unconsciously, where it is processed and brought to mind. You as conscious self only experience the latter part, having no access to the means of your production (brain feedback loops), you believe yourself to be the Director of the Brain, its homunculus. Free will as an illusion of consciousness.

 

[Kharakov]

The will works on the brain.

Then how do you do stuff?

 

[WAB]

The will works on the brain.

Then how do you do stuff?

God is:

the field

&

the knower of the field.


our brains are like cell phones.


there is only one substance (Spinoza), and only one mind. There is (crap I forgot), and Extension.

Extension is matter.

 

[untermensche]

That is just what you freely say.

I would freely say something else.

I can freely say whatever I want.

Whatever is said is said in response to what is read. The form of this response comes to mind while you are reading the post. Information is acquired by the senses unconsciously, conveyed to brain regions, unconsciously, where it is processed and brought to mind. You as conscious self only experience the latter part, having no access to the means of your production (brain feedback loops), you believe yourself to be the Director of the Brain, its homunculus. Free will as an illusion of consciousness.

Yes. It is a response.

A freely chosen response.

The mind responds to ideas with other ideas. Total freedom.

What do you imagine is forcing you to accept the ideas you have?

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The will works on the brain.

Then how do you do stuff?

I just do something with my mind and my body obeys all commands instantly.

If I want some ice cream I just tell my body to go get it.

 

[bilby]

Yes. It is a response.

A freely chosen response.

The mind responds to ideas with other ideas. Total freedom.

What do you imagine is forcing you to accept the ideas you have?

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The will works on the brain.

Then how do you do stuff?

I just do something with my mind and my body obeys all commands instantly.

If I want some ice cream I just tell my body to go get it.

It's as obvious as the undeniable fact that a body in motion must be continually accelerated or it will come to a stop; and the fact that nature abhors a vacuum.

These and many other bloody obvious and self evident truths turn out not to be true at all. But it's very easy to fool yourself into believing them.

 

[untermensche]

Yes. It is a response.

A freely chosen response.

The mind responds to ideas with other ideas. Total freedom.

What do you imagine is forcing you to accept the ideas you have?

- - - Updated - - -



I just do something with my mind and my body obeys all commands instantly.

If I want some ice cream I just tell my body to go get it.

It's as obvious as the undeniable fact that a body in motion must be continually accelerated or it will come to a stop; and the fact that nature abhors a vacuum.

These and many other bloody obvious and self evident truths turn out not to be true at all. But it's very easy to fool yourself into believing them.

So when you want ice cream you just sit and whine?

Because you can't figure out how to get your body to go get it?

Merely because some human perceptions are wrong does not make all of them wrong.

When you are skiing and see a tree. I suggest you avoid it.

 

[DBT]

Yes. It is a response.

A freely chosen response.

The mind responds to ideas with other ideas. Total freedom.

What do you imagine is forcing you to accept the ideas you have?

You ignored what I said. I made no claim of being forced. Read more carefully and compose a reply that actually relates to what I said.

 

[ruby sparks]

... only one mind....

You and PyramidHead could have a rewarding chat.

 

[untermensche]

Yes. It is a response.

A freely chosen response.

The mind responds to ideas with other ideas. Total freedom.

What do you imagine is forcing you to accept the ideas you have?

You ignored what I said. I made no claim of being forced. Read more carefully and compose a reply that actually relates to what I said.

Funny how you quote my questions yet totally ignore them.

You chose those words freely.

Nothing forced you to choose them. You cannot demonstrate in the least that something somehow is forcing you to say the things you say.

 

[Speakpigeon]

I guess this applies here too!
EB

Everybody agrees you can't reach the finish line. Why the need to quibble about where the hamster is going?

View attachment 14678

Which one is unter?

UM is spinning the wheel and you guys are those who are going round and round and round.
EB

 

[untermensche]

So you blame contention in a free will thread on me?

You have freely chosen to do so so there is no excuse.