DBT
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Even if they have different names and labels? Odin, Zeus, Yahweh, Ra, etc, etc, are all one and the same Entity because 'they' all fall into the category of "God?''
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"They all worship the same God"
- Thread starter GenesisNemesis
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Even if they have different names and labels? Odin, Zeus, Yahweh, Ra, etc, etc, are all one and the same Entity because 'they' all fall into the category of "God?''
dystopian
Veteran Member
No, of course not. Only if they all come from the same *source* material. Odin, Zeus, etc, do NOT all come from the same source material. All of the different versions of batman, DO; as does god as worshipped by Jews, Christians, and Muslims. Why is this so hard for you to understand? While you could make a point that at some point, a character diverges so much from the original that it becomes a new character, you really can't say that about the different versions of the abrahamic god in circulation.
Sheshbazzar
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Interesting Syed. So you are claiming that the people who worshipped Wadd, (also known variously as Ilumquh, ʻAmm and Sīn) along with the gods Suwa', Yaghuth, Ya'uq and Nasr ((Qur'an 71:23) were really worshipping only one god? with all these being that very same god worshipped and taught of by Mohammed?Syed said:
And why, if these are the names of what were recognized as being five distinct and different gods that were worshiped from the time of Noah, did Mo' have any reason to reject the gods bearing these names and force exclusive worship of his god 'Allah' upon them by terror and slaughter?
Evidently Mo' didn't accept your claim that this old Wadd god was the same god as his Allah.
If all gods really are one and the same god, then the god Jesus really IS the god Allah. Right Syed?
For the more Biblically or Tanakh literate, the corresponding question would be, Was/is Baal, Dagon, Astarte or Samash all the same god as YHWH of the Jews?
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DBT
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Not everyone agrees with you (refuting Islam). Source material is not sufficient. It's not only a name change, but the nature and characteristics between the different versions. Amongst a host of differences, Christianity, for instance, believes that Jesus is God, but both Judaism and Islam do not. Jesus cannot logically be God, and not be God. So, logically, they can't both be right. As the two sets of claims cannot both be true, the God of Christianity is not, and cannot be, identical to the God of Islam. They are different versions of the concept of God.
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dystopian
Veteran Member
That article is demonstrably false though; and written not by an objective scholar, but a Christian with an axe to grind. So I'm not sure what this is supposed to prove? That there are people who disagree with me? Duh, of course there are.
Which isn't really the problem you're making it out to be. Muslims may not believe that Jesus was god, but they do accept him as a prophet of god. The story doesn't fundamentally change just because one doesn't accept the claim that he's god. Incidentally, the bible doesn't exactly say that Jesus is god either; Jesus never claims that he's god, he claims that he and God are one. This is in fact purely a matter of interpretation; not all christians accept the notion that Jesus and God are the same entity.
Once again, you are conflating "identical" with "same". Do you not accept that both protestants and catholics worship the 'same' god? Clearly they do, however their beliefs are sufficiently different from each other that they can't both be true. By your logic then, they can't both be christian faiths... even though they obviously are. Your argument necessarily leads to some absurd conclusions.
No, Vishnu and Yahweh are two different versions of the concept of "God"; Yahweh and Allah by comparison, are two different interpretations of a specific version of the concept of "God".
It's only a semantical difference. The human mind needs metaphors to make the infinite intelligible, but all metaphor has a limit. One cannot have an omnipotent, all knowing creator of Heaven and Earth, and then consider some part of the universe to exist outside his creation. It helps to believe there are divisions and separations within the whole, but everything is within the whole.
DBT
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Christians disagree with you for the given reasons. So do Orthodox Jews. It's only the Muslims that claim that Allah is the same God. Nor have you demonstrated that it is false. You simply state that it is false.
Again:
Christianity claims that both Jesus and the Father(God) are one and the same God. Islam disagrees, instead claiming that Jesus is a prophet of God. They can't both be right.
It is a contradiction, and there are two versions of God.
Judaism rejects the godhood of Jesus, therefore is at odds with Christianity. And also rejects the claims of Islam in regard to the nature and character of Allah. As the claims contradict each other, logically, someone is wrong.
So to claim ''they all worship the same God'' is absurd.
Mere semantics. There is very little difference between 'identical' and 'same.'
Identical;
1: being the same : selfsame <the identical place we stopped before>
2: having such close resemblance as to be essentially the same <identical hats> —often used with to or with
False analogy, both these religions hold much the same set of beliefs. Islam does not, rejecting the divinity of Jesus. Judaism also rejects the divinity of Jesus and that he was the Messiah. So it's not a good comparison. Keep in mind that the OP claim is "They all worship the same God"
Interpretations? It's a collection of different sets of beliefs in regard to the nature of God that are held by various cultural groups. Not any form of actual God, just the idea of God. As the characteristics of God are in direct contradiction to each other, they cannot be claimed to be the same God. Which is the position of Christians toward the claims of Islam and the position of Judaism in regard to the divinity of Jesus...
DBT
Contributor
That's a fair point. I may be wrong (I've been away from this subject for long time), but I don't think it's supported by Christian doctrine:
''Theological controversy did not end at the Council of Nicea, and in the following centuries the church had to deal with errors regarding the humanity of Christ, the authority of Scripture, justification, and others. Despite the various positions taken on these issues, however, most theologians still insisted on the transcendence of God. That all changed in the nineteenth century.
Our Creator’s transcendence is affirmed throughout Scripture and is reflected in today’s passage. When we say God is transcendent, we mean that He is separate from His creation and not dependent on the created order in any way. The Almighty made the universe and He is therefore its sovereign ruler (Gen. 1:1). A biblical view of transcendence does not mean that God is unable to enter into His creation or communicate with it. He is also immanent, present within the universe that He has made (Ps. 139:7). Nevertheless, creation is not God (pantheism), nor does God depend upon it. Creation, instead, depends upon our Creator for its continual existence (Eph. 4:4–6).''
dystopian
Veteran Member
No, *some* Christians disagree.
Really? Have you actually *read* the article you linked? It argues that Allah and Yahweh aren't the same god because the Christian god is: "Knowable and personable; Holy, moral, and cannot lie; Trustworthy and consistent; love is the motivation to serve him." versus; "Allah is unknowable, impersonable; Not limited by moral nature; Apt to change his mind; fear is the motivation to serve him."; only a christian would claim these traits apply to their god. Everything the article accuses Allah of, also in fact applies to Yahweh. And muslims make mostly the same claims about their interpretation of god.
It is a blatant case of christian propaganda, built on claims that to an educated non-christian are so obviously false, that I really shouldn't have to waste my time explaining to you why; it's just an opinion built on very shaky foundations of ONE christian... it does not represent an objective argument that Allah and Yahweh are two different entities, and it certainly doesn't represent an argument on your part that Christians as a whole disagree with the notion that the two are the same (not that that would matter one iota as to whether they are or not)
As I pointed out to you, the bible doesn't actually claim this; nor do all christians believe it.
Which again, isn't relevant.
A literal reading of the dictionary will only get you so far in debates. It should be obvious by now that you and I are using the word "same"; in the context of this argument; *differently*. Link to a dictionary definition does not help to undermine my argument, because at most you'd force me to use some other word while my argument itself remains intact. So you could either choose, for the sake of the debate, to understand my actual argument, or continue to think that it can be demolished by arguing that it's just semantics. One guess as to which will get us closer to an actual answer. No do overs.
It is not a false analogy at all; and is a perfectly valid comparison. Your argument here rests on the fact that Islam and Christianity hold different beliefs about god that can't *both* be true; therefore they worship different gods. Well, guess what? Protestants and Catholics hold different beliefs about god TOO, and they can't *both* be true. By your own logic, therefore, they don't worship the same god. The difference between Protestants and Catholics, versus the difference between Catholics and Muslims, is just a matter of degrees; there's no fundamental difference there that allows you to say "these two different groups worship the same god, but these two do not."; all you can say about them is that "the differences between these two groups is greater than the differences between these other two."
Your opinion that the difference between the muslim interpretation of god and the christian interpretation is so great that they can't be the same god while the differences between protestants and catholics are not, is entirely arbitrary.
Which leads us right back to the problem that that means Protestants and Catholics can't worship the same god. The characteristics of the protestant god and the catholic god are ALSO at times in direct contradiction to each other. There is no objective point where the number of difference go from "these guys worship the same god" to "nuhuh, different gods."
No, again; it is the position of SOME christians. By the way, even if all christians *did* hold the view that the muslim god is not the same as the christian god; your argument is self-defeating. After all, it means that just as muslims don't worship the same god as christians, neither do the jews. However, *all* of christianity recognizes the god of the jews as their own god. So either christians are wrong about the jewish god being the same as theirs, they're wrong about the muslim god not being theirs; or their opinion doesn't actually matter to the facts and you're trying to appeal to popularity.
DBT
Contributor
Who are these Christians? Which group of Christians agree with Islam on the issue of non divinity of Jesus? Which group of Christians agree with orthodox Jews when they say that Jesus in not only not Divine, but not the true Messiah? These posts are getting too long to manage in the time I have, so let's just focus on the key points of difference. This is not a matter of appealing to popularity as you claim, but essential points of doctrine and belief.
You need to explain how ''all worship the same God'' when Christianity claims the Divinity for Jesus, but Islam denies Divinity.
What you need to explain in order to justify your claim that 'they all worship the same God'' is (putting the claims of Judaism aside for now), how it is the same God if Jesus is indeed a part of the Trinity and therefore Divine (Christianity) by reconciling the claim of Islam with Christianity: that Jesus is not Divine, but is a prophet of God. Logically, it cannot be the same God under both claims, Jesus is either Divine, or He is not. If he is not Divine, the God of Islam is not the God of Christianity.
So, dystopian, can you reconcile the two opposing claims, Divinity and non Divinity, by demonstrating why ''they all worship the same God?''
Underseer
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If the Muslim god is different from the Christian god, is the Christian god different from the Jewish god?
If you are like most people who complain about political correctness, you no doubt think the latter two are the same but not the former two.
hinduwoman
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They are all people of the same Book : except that each new group added some extra material.
skepticalbip
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Or are the Roman Catholic god, the Greek Orthodox god, the Mormon god, Amish god, the Methodist god, the Baptist god, etc., etc. all different gods?
GenesisNemesis
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The Christian god is different from the Jewish god.
dystopian
Veteran Member
Oh you know, only those Catholics, the single largest group of Christians on the planet.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_...ts/vat-ii_decl_19651028_nostra-aetate_en.html
"841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."330" http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a9p3.htm
Not relevant to whether or not they worship the same god.
But since you asked, wikipedia gives this quick list of groups that don't accept the trinity (which means Jesus is not god to them, and therefore not divine): Christadelphians, Christian Scientists, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Dawn Bible Students, Friends General Conference, Iglesia ni Cristo, Jehovah's Witnesses, Living Church of God, Oneness Pentecostals, Members Church of God International, Unitarian Universalist Christians, The Way International, The Church of God, International and the United Church of God.
Not relevant to whether or not they worship the same god.
And Catholic doctrine says that Muslims and Christians worship the same god. Are you really going to argue Catholic doctrine with the pope?
No, *you* need to explain what the hell relevance Jesus has to whether or not they worship the same god. It is not a fundamental enough difference to lead to the gods not being the same. Whether or not you believe Jesus was actually the son of god or just a prophet of god is irrelevant... you're still worshipping the same god either way.
Once again, you have not demonstrated this to be a fundamental enough difference to lead us to conclude that these are different gods. Deciding that this particular difference is the cut-off point versus the differences between individual christian sects is entirely arbitrary. Incidentally, arguing that muslims don't worship the christian god because they don't accept the trinity will lead you to the same problem as with the differences between Catholics and Protestants... because not all christians accept the trinity, as I pointed out above. Yet they all clearly believe in the christian god.
dystopian
Veteran Member
They can be different; that doesn't mean they don't worship the same god. It just means they don't agree on his attributes. Do two Bieber fangirls not adore the same celebrity just because one thinks 'he's like this in private' while the other thinks 'nuh-uh, he's like *that* in private'?
Eldarion Lathria
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A Good Number of Them Seem To Worship This
Eldarion Lathria
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I always want to respond to this kind of statement by asking, "Have you ever met either one?" so, I guess I just did.
skepticalbip
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bilby
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I've never seen them in the same room together. They are like Batman and Bruce Wayne; or Superman and Clark Kent.