Time to stop being a consumer...

[Bronzeage]

Car manufactures, phone manufacturers, and alarm clock manufacturers are not Doctors without Borders or the International Red Cross. We really shouldn't expect them to be altruistic and philanthropic organizations.

It is noble of you to be concerned about people who are least able to protect themselves. Especially the dumb ones. They really need help.

Taking advantage of the most vulnerable is an achievement for some.

So, saving these vulnerables would be an achievement for you? If you were to present yourself to the world as the person who is smart enough to tell others what they should do, what's your sales pitch?

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Is Jif peanut butter interested in whether their peanut butter is going to fit my actual needs and desires best? I don't think so. They are counting on me being able to make a sensible choice and not buy something I don't want or need.

Advertising informs consumers what is for sale and what it does. I do not believe people are fooled into buying something they don't want by pretty pictures and cool music. I'm not and I'll give the rest of the world the benefit of the doubt.

I disagree. Advertising does not inform. It manipulates and persuades.
I'm not saying this is right or wrong, nor suggesting that they have no right to try.

But I am definitely saying that they ARE trying to get people to buy things they don't need and they ARE trying to fool people into buying things. When they crank up volume for TV commercials, make false and misleading claims and attempt to target vulnerable markets, they are very deliberate and carefully orchestrated efforts.

If advertising manipulates and persuades, how is it you detected their evil plot and did not fall victim to manipulation and persuasion? Why isn't your house full of stuff you don't need?

 

[ksen]

Advertising manipulation and persuasion doesn't have to be 100% effective for it to exist. Arguing against advertising being a form of manipulation and persuasion is kind of silly.

I mean you've basically just asked Rhea "If evolution is true then why are there still monkeys?"

 

[Bronzeage]

Advertising manipulation and persuasion doesn't have to be 100% effective for it to exist. Arguing against advertising being a form of manipulation and persuasion is kind of silly.

I mean you've basically just asked Rhea "If evolution is true then why are there still monkeys?"

No, what I asked Rhea is, "If the Earth is only 6000 years old, how did the Grand Canyon get so deep?"

Every thread in this forum is filled with manipulation and persuasion. This is how humans interact. To decry this because one thinks other people may not be able to resist manipulation and persuasion and thus do things they don't want to do, is very silly.

 

[skepticalbip]

This thread is making me feel like a genius. I have seen a hell of a lot of ads, commercials, and billboards and have never had the urge to rush and buy any of the shit advertised. I drive cars until they are on their last legs then begin researching reliability, gas mileage, price, etc. before I buy a replacement. I eat in restaurants that have food I like not the last restaurant advertisement I saw. Most of the restaurants I enjoy don’t advertise other than having their name on the building. In fact I have only bought an infinitesimal percentage of the things I have seen advertised and those only because it was what I wanted or needed.

A reality check tells me I am not really a genius but an average guy. I don’t assume that everyone else are idiots that are led around by the nose to buy shit they don’t want or need by slick advertising.

The primary purpose of advertisement is to compete with the competition for customers who are looking for what they are selling. An ad for a particular computer will not cause someone to rush out and buy (unless they are real idiots in which case they likely wouldn't have the money to buy anyway). It will put the name in the mind of computer users that can be recalled along with the name of their competition the next time they need to shop to replace their current computer.

 

[Bronzeage]

This thread is making me feel like a genius. I have seen a hell of a lot of ads, commercials, and billboards and have never had the urge to rush and buy any of the shit advertised. I drive cars until they are on their last legs then begin researching reliability, gas mileage, price, etc. before I buy a replacement. I eat in restaurants that have food I like not the last restaurant advertisement I saw. Most of the restaurants I enjoy don’t advertise other than having their name on the building. In fact I have only bought an infinitesimal percentage of the things I have seen advertised and those only because it was what I wanted or needed.

A reality check tells me I am not really a genius but an average guy. I don’t assume that everyone else are idiots that are led around by the nose to buy shit they don’t want or need by slick advertising.

The primary purpose of advertisement is to compete with the competition for customers who are looking for what they are selling. An ad for a particular computer will not cause someone to rush out and buy (unless they are real idiots in which case they likely wouldn't have the money to buy anyway). It will put the name in the mind of computer users that can be recalled along with the name of their competition the next time they need to shop to replace their current computer.

Well, you seem to agree with me, which is pretty close to genius. Congratulations.

Am I being manipulative and persuasive? Maybe, maybe not.

 

[dismal]

This thread is making me feel like a genius. I have seen a hell of a lot of ads, commercials, and billboards and have never had the urge to rush and buy any of the shit advertised. I drive cars until they are on their last legs then begin researching reliability, gas mileage, price, etc. before I buy a replacement. I eat in restaurants that have food I like not the last restaurant advertisement I saw. Most of the restaurants I enjoy don’t advertise other than having their name on the building. In fact I have only bought an infinitesimal percentage of the things I have seen advertised and those only because it was what I wanted or needed.

A reality check tells me I am not really a genius but an average guy. I don’t assume that everyone else are idiots that are led around by the nose to buy shit they don’t want or need by slick advertising.

The primary purpose of advertisement is to compete with the competition for customers who are looking for what they are selling. An ad for a particular computer will not cause someone to rush out and buy (unless they are real idiots in which case they likely wouldn't have the money to buy anyway). It will put the name in the mind of computer users that can be recalled along with the name of their competition the next time they need to shop to replace their current computer.

Oh, yeah, well sometimes I get emails from Nigerian princes and don't send them any money.

And I've even begun to suspect that politicians are not entirely sincere about the things they say when trying to get elected.

 

[skepticalbip]

This thread is making me feel like a genius. I have seen a hell of a lot of ads, commercials, and billboards and have never had the urge to rush and buy any of the shit advertised. I drive cars until they are on their last legs then begin researching reliability, gas mileage, price, etc. before I buy a replacement. I eat in restaurants that have food I like not the last restaurant advertisement I saw. Most of the restaurants I enjoy don’t advertise other than having their name on the building. In fact I have only bought an infinitesimal percentage of the things I have seen advertised and those only because it was what I wanted or needed.

A reality check tells me I am not really a genius but an average guy. I don’t assume that everyone else are idiots that are led around by the nose to buy shit they don’t want or need by slick advertising.

The primary purpose of advertisement is to compete with the competition for customers who are looking for what they are selling. An ad for a particular computer will not cause someone to rush out and buy (unless they are real idiots in which case they likely wouldn't have the money to buy anyway). It will put the name in the mind of computer users that can be recalled along with the name of their competition the next time they need to shop to replace their current computer.

Oh, yeah, well sometimes I get emails from Nigerian princes and don't send them any money.

And I've even begun to suspect that politicians are not entirely sincere about the things they say when trying to get elected.

Ah, welcome to the genius club. It is a real shame that everyone else in the world believe and act on everything they hear.

 

[Togo]

Every thread in this forum is filled with manipulation and persuasion. This is how humans interact.

How many people do you know that only communicate when they are trying to manipulate or persuade? This is not how humans interact.

If all you mean is that it is part of human interaction, then that isn't a reason not to decry it. We decry people hitting each other, but that's no less normal.

To decry this because one thinks other people may not be able to resist manipulation and persuasion and thus do things they don't want to do, is very silly.

Um.. This is a politics board. Isn't decrying attempts to manipulate others into believing things we think of as false the entire point of the board? And indeed the forum?

This thread is making me feel like a genius. I have seen a hell of a lot of ads, commercials, and billboards and have never had the urge to rush and buy any of the shit advertised. I drive cars until they are on their last legs then begin researching reliability, gas mileage, price, etc. before I buy a replacement. I eat in restaurants that have food I like not the last restaurant advertisement I saw. Most of the restaurants I enjoy don’t advertise other than having their name on the building. In fact I have only bought an infinitesimal percentage of the things I have seen advertised and those only because it was what I wanted or needed.

A reality check tells me I am not really a genius but an average guy. I don’t assume that everyone else are idiots that are led around by the nose to buy shit they don’t want or need by slick advertising.

Great. So how did you come to represent your on-line identity with an image of a popular cartoon character?

 

[Bronzeage]

How many people do you know that only communicate when they are trying to manipulate or persuade? This is not how humans interact.

If all you mean is that it is part of human interaction, then that isn't a reason not to decry it. We decry people hitting each other, but that's no less normal.

To decry this because one thinks other people may not be able to resist manipulation and persuasion and thus do things they don't want to do, is very silly.

Um.. This is a politics board. Isn't decrying attempts to manipulate others into believing things we think of as false the entire point of the board? And indeed the forum?

When is a human not trying to manipulate or persuade? We are a cooperative and social species. Our survival depends upon being able to elicit cooperation from those around us. Manipulation and persuasion are much preferable to threat and violence. This is the difference between a smile and saying, "Could you move over, so I may sit here," and "Get the fuck out of my chair, or I'll break your neck."

Some people don't like the terms manipulation and persuasion, as if it insinuates they are being fooled or hoodwinked, when in reality, it means to present choices to another person. This person is free to accept or reject. We may never know the reasons they make their choice and sometimes it may appear to us they made a poor choice.

The entire point? I hope we have some reason for existence beyond that. This would reduce every other post to "Are you stupid? Can't you see he's lying?"

Is manipulation and persuasion only used for evil? Should I refrain from using manipulation and persuasion to reveal something good and wholesome, because it's bad to manipulate and persuade, and hope you stumble upon it without my help?

 

[untermensche]

Taking advantage of the most vulnerable is an achievement for some.

So, saving these vulnerables would be an achievement for you? If you were to present yourself to the world as the person who is smart enough to tell others what they should do, what's your sales pitch?

To sell a car rationally you would present the facts.

These are the facts.

And rational people know what to do with facts.

And to sell it rationally it would be the same price no matter who walked into the dealership.

 

[Bronzeage]

So, saving these vulnerables would be an achievement for you? If you were to present yourself to the world as the person who is smart enough to tell others what they should do, what's your sales pitch?

To sell a car rationally you would present the facts.

These are the facts.

And rational people know what to do with facts.

And to sell it rationally it would be the same price no matter who walked into the dealership.

Why not auction off the cars? This means every car would likely be sold for a different price. Would this be rational?

 

[Togo]

When is a human not trying to manipulate or persuade? We are a cooperative and social species. Our survival depends upon being able to elicit cooperation from those around us.

But not every waking moment is spent trying to elicit cooperation from those around us. We're drifting off into a more general discussion of human motivation, but this is a very narrow picture you're painting...

Is manipulation and persuasion only used for evil? Should I refrain from using manipulation and persuasion to reveal something good and wholesome, because it's bad to manipulate and persuade, and hope you stumble upon it without my help?

Is it always good, just because you consider it a fundamental part of human interaction? Are there some types of human interaction that we actively avoid, seek to limit, and indeed have to limit if we are to get on with our lives? You're saying that we shouldn't decry advertising because it is normal human persuasion and manipulation, but in practice we regularly and constantly decry some instances of human persuasion and manipulation, and place social limits on how much, in what way, and how often we can attempt to manipulate each other. Unless you're happy to see adverts for criminal services, the virtues of female genital mutilation and unlimited spam, then you're already supporting limits on how much and what kinds of advertising we see. We may differ in where to place those limits, but there's certainly nothing 'silly' about having them.

 

[untermensche]

To sell a car rationally you would present the facts.

These are the facts.

And rational people know what to do with facts.

And to sell it rationally it would be the same price no matter who walked into the dealership.

Why not auction off the cars? This means every car would likely be sold for a different price. Would this be rational?

Not for the sellers.

They wouldn't want people to be able to get to the point where they understood that not bidding will lower the price and patience will get you a car for a low price.

 

[Bronzeage]

Why not auction off the cars? This means every car would likely be sold for a different price. Would this be rational?

Not for the sellers.

They wouldn't want people to be able to get to the point where they understood that not bidding will lower the price and patience will get you a car for a low price.

Have you ever attended an auction? Why do you believe people don't know this beforehand? All your arguments seem to be predicated on other people being too dumb to know better.

 

[untermensche]

Not for the sellers.

They wouldn't want people to be able to get to the point where they understood that not bidding will lower the price and patience will get you a car for a low price.

Have you ever attended an auction? Why do you believe people don't know this beforehand? All your arguments seem to be predicated on other people being too dumb to know better.

Auctions may be large but they would be a drop in the bucket if every new car was auctioned off.

When supply is limited prices will rise.

But when supply is almost at the level of demand then human inaction can easily make the price drop.

 

[Bronzeage]

Have you ever attended an auction? Why do you believe people don't know this beforehand? All your arguments seem to be predicated on other people being too dumb to know better.

Auctions may be large but they would be a drop in the bucket if every new car was auctioned off.

When supply is limited prices will rise.

But when supply is almost at the level of demand then human inaction can easily make the price drop.

Your first statement does not make sense.

Your second and third statements are irrelevant facts. None address my question.

 

[untermensche]

Auctions may be large but they would be a drop in the bucket if every new car was auctioned off.

When supply is limited prices will rise.

But when supply is almost at the level of demand then human inaction can easily make the price drop.

Your first statement does not make sense.

Your second and third statements are irrelevant facts. None address my question.

Saying that the number of cars at auctions would increase dramatically if every new car was auctioned off to the final buyer makes no sense to you?

If that's true then I'm wasting my time.

 

[fromderinside]

Every person is free to decide their own wants and desires.

Patently not true. Every person is designed to accommodate what other people expect as a matter of surviving as a sentient reasoning social animal. This works outward from immediate family to neighbors to community to nation. Such partly explains why all elections are local for instance. If it were as you suggest neighbors, parents, etc, would have little effect on decision making and commercials would be much easier to design.

That aside humans are not generally rational animals, they are more reflexive and emotional in nature than rational. I suspect there would be no churches if it were true that humans are rational beings.

What my point has to do with the consumerism argument is to recast it as a social bureaucratic thing rather than an individual thing. Consumerism will die a death similar to all outmoded cultural motivators as we change, in my view, away from satisfied needs environment.

 

[skepticalbip]

This thread is making me feel like a genius. I have seen a hell of a lot of ads, commercials, and billboards and have never had the urge to rush and buy any of the shit advertised. I drive cars until they are on their last legs then begin researching reliability, gas mileage, price, etc. before I buy a replacement. I eat in restaurants that have food I like not the last restaurant advertisement I saw. Most of the restaurants I enjoy don’t advertise other than having their name on the building. In fact I have only bought an infinitesimal percentage of the things I have seen advertised and those only because it was what I wanted or needed.

A reality check tells me I am not really a genius but an average guy. I don’t assume that everyone else are idiots that are led around by the nose to buy shit they don’t want or need by slick advertising.

Great. So how did you come to represent your on-line identity with an image of a popular cartoon character?

It isn't a popular cartoon character. It is custom made by the creators of the Simpsons to match a description of me in cartoon fashion. And, most importantly, it was free. I'm happy to accept things that I like free of charge if someone wants to offer them.

I wasn't seduced by advertising to buy it since I didn't buy it but I think it is better than a photo of me as an avatar because I find it kinda funny.

 

[Bronzeage]

Auctions may be large but they would be a drop in the bucket if every new car was auctioned off.

When supply is limited prices will rise.

But when supply is almost at the level of demand then human inaction can easily make the price drop.

Your first statement does not make sense.

Your second and third statements are irrelevant facts. None address my question.

Your first statement does not make sense.

Your second and third statements are irrelevant facts. None address my question.

Saying that the number of cars at auctions would increase dramatically if every new car was auctioned off to the final buyer makes no sense to you?

If that's true then I'm wasting my time.

It's a very poorly worded construction, but now that you clarify, it becomes another irrelevant fact.

Every person is free to decide their own wants and desires.

Patently not true. Every person is designed to accommodate what other people expect as a matter of surviving as a sentient reasoning social animal. This works outward from immediate family to neighbors to community to nation. Such partly explains why all elections are local for instance. If it were as you suggest neighbors, parents, etc, would have little effect on decision making and commercials would be much easier to design.

That aside humans are not generally rational animals, they are more reflexive and emotional in nature than rational. I suspect there would be no churches if it were true that humans are rational beings.

What my point has to do with the consumerism argument is to recast it as a social bureaucratic thing rather than an individual thing. Consumerism will die a death similar to all outmoded cultural motivators as we change, in my view, away from satisfied needs environment.

We are designed to accommodate what other people expect? Who designed this obviously flawed system? You want to create a different set of expectation for people to bow to. Why do you believe you are a more qualified designer? Why will people be happier under your system? Is happiness a factor in your plan?

Here we are, debating opposing points of view, each of us considering the other and making a response, yet somehow we are not rational animals. I'll return to an earlier point, just because you don't like something another person does, this is not evidence they are irrational.

As for consumerism, it's the result of surplus. The fortunate among us have choices of what we eat, wear, drive, etc. The counterpart to consumerism is survivalism, where people have little or no choice. This is quickly followed by starvationism.