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Trump just won

Yeah, that's basically what he said. He said on economics the LP is where people imagine the RP to be, and on social issues the LP is where people imagine the DP to be.

On what planet, exactly, are we talking about?

Socially, the Democrats are liberal, which does not equal "get the fucking government out of my personal life." They want to keep the government out of women's ovaries, to be sure, but they also support a wide variety of social programs/safety nets/regulations which absolutely involve the government in people's lives. Democrats would consider themselves on the side of some poor old lady struggling to make ends meet, advocating for programs to help her live with some sort of dignity...Social Security, Medicare, housing assistance, etc.

Libertarians? "Sorry granny, but you're on your own."


Apart from things like reproductive freedom, I don't see a lot of common cause between Democrats and Libertarians.
 
There was no claim that they mirrored the Democrats. It is the heart of what Democrats think their party stands for that Libertarians embrace - the government not telling them what to do in their private lives. That, in Libertarian speak, is individual freedom.

That's not the heart of what Democrats think their party stands for. It's one amongst a number of things, sure, but hardly the central thing. The heart of what the Democratic party stands for is that the government has a strong role to play in society in maintaining a social safety net, regulating businesses, ensuring fair and equal treatment of various groups, etc. The Libertarian philosophy is diametrically opposed to Democratic philosophy on pretty much all of the important issues.

Yes, we know they disagree on economics. The point is there are two sides, economic and civil / social.

The Republicans on civil society aren't very civil. They want to prohibit gay marriage, they more than the Democrats (although Democrat hands aren't clean) are the supporters of the drug war, they'd even like to bring back alcohol prohibition if possible. But they pretend they want the government out of economics.

The Democrats on economics imagine their incivility is civil. They embrace all the regulations you describe. But they pretend the want the government out of personal matters.

So when skepticalbip described the Libertarians as closer to the Democrats on civil / social matters, not economics, definitely not economics, don't even pretend he was referencing economics, why were the first two responses to him to say "oh but economics"? And why did, after I pointed this out the first time, did Ford reply again with "oh but economics" when I made it clear it was the other half, not the economics, that was under discussion?
 
There was no claim that they mirrored the Democrats. It is the heart of what Democrats think their party stands for that Libertarians embrace - the government not telling them what to do in their private lives. That, in Libertarian speak, is individual freedom.

That's not the heart of what Democrats think their party stands for. It's one amongst a number of things, sure, but hardly the central thing. The heart of what the Democratic party stands for is that the government has a strong role to play in society in maintaining a social safety net, regulating businesses, ensuring fair and equal treatment of various groups, etc. The Libertarian philosophy is diametrically opposed to Democratic philosophy on pretty much all of the important issues.
Certainly the Libertarians do not mirror all Democrat positions. If they did then they would be Democrats. Maybe you don't understand what I mean by the heart. Imagine which of the many Democrat positions would you be least willing to give up. Would you give up your individual freedom to retain the social safety net? Would you give up your individual freedom in order to regulate business? Whatever would be the very last position you would willingly give up is what you see as the heart.
 
So when skepticalbip described the Libertarians as closer to the Democrats on civil / social matters, not economics, definitely not economics, don't even pretend he was referencing economics, why were the first two responses to him to say "oh but economics"? And why did, after I pointed this out the first time, did Ford reply again with "oh but economics" when I made it clear it was the other half, not the economics, that was under discussion?


Hold on a sec...let's get some clarity on what was said. I stated that a third party:

would have to scoop the middle out of the two main parties

Skepticalbip responded that this is where the LP is. A representation of the middle of both parties.

They are most decidedly not, and my response to him was not "oh but economics." My response was that the LP is not in line with Democrats socially. Tom correctly pointed out that Democrats see a large role for government in society, which is diametrically opposed to the LP.

Scooping out the middle of both parties to form a third (as I described) would be more than just taking the Libertarian position economically, and the Libertarian position socially. That would be the Libertarian Party.
 
True, we're not in line with the Democrats socially, they are in line with us. We came out in favor of gay rights long before the Democrats did, and the Democrats are just now catching up to our position on the drug war.
 
That's not the heart of what Democrats think their party stands for. It's one amongst a number of things, sure, but hardly the central thing. The heart of what the Democratic party stands for is that the government has a strong role to play in society in maintaining a social safety net, regulating businesses, ensuring fair and equal treatment of various groups, etc. The Libertarian philosophy is diametrically opposed to Democratic philosophy on pretty much all of the important issues.
Certainly the Libertarians do not mirror all Democrat positions. If they did then they would be Democrats. Maybe you don't understand what I mean by the heart. Imagine which of the many Democrat positions would you be least willing to give up. Would you give up your individual freedom to retain the social safety net? Would you give up your individual freedom in order to regulate business? Whatever would be the very last position you would willingly give up is what you see as the heart.

I think that would be the social safety net then. The idea that it is the role of the government to help take care of the least able in the society. That's the antithesis of libertarian philosophy - except in regards to real libertarians, of course.
 
That's not the heart of what Democrats think their party stands for. It's one amongst a number of things, sure, but hardly the central thing. The heart of what the Democratic party stands for is that the government has a strong role to play in society in maintaining a social safety net, regulating businesses, ensuring fair and equal treatment of various groups, etc. The Libertarian philosophy is diametrically opposed to Democratic philosophy on pretty much all of the important issues.

Yes, we know they disagree on economics. The point is there are two sides, economic and civil / social.

The Republicans on civil society aren't very civil. They want to prohibit gay marriage, they more than the Democrats (although Democrat hands aren't clean) are the supporters of the drug war, they'd even like to bring back alcohol prohibition if possible. But they pretend they want the government out of economics.

The Democrats on economics imagine their incivility is civil. They embrace all the regulations you describe. But they pretend the want the government out of personal matters.

So when skepticalbip described the Libertarians as closer to the Democrats on civil / social matters, not economics, definitely not economics, don't even pretend he was referencing economics, why were the first two responses to him to say "oh but economics"? And why did, after I pointed this out the first time, did Ford reply again with "oh but economics" when I made it clear it was the other half, not the economics, that was under discussion?

But the Libertarians aren't close to the Democrats on social issues. They want the government uninvolved in social issues and the Dems want the government strongly involved in social issues. There are areas where the end result of those two philosophies come out the same, such as gay marriage being legal because people can marry who they want and gay marriage being legal because people can't be stopped from marrying who they want. The libertarians think that freedom and equality just naturally occur when there's no outside interference and the Dems think that this leads to a state of inequality and a strong, counterbalancing force is necessary to combat it.
 
Certainly the Libertarians do not mirror all Democrat positions. If they did then they would be Democrats. Maybe you don't understand what I mean by the heart. Imagine which of the many Democrat positions would you be least willing to give up. Would you give up your individual freedom to retain the social safety net? Would you give up your individual freedom in order to regulate business? Whatever would be the very last position you would willingly give up is what you see as the heart.

I think that would be the social safety net then. The idea that it is the role of the government to help take care of the least able in the society. That's the antithesis of libertarian philosophy - except in regards to real libertarians, of course.
Fair enough. You seem to hold a different position as their core than any other Democrat I've discussed politics with. Certainly almost all have held the safety net as damned important but you are the first I've talked to to see it as most important. All so far drew the line at individual freedom - gay rights, abortion rights, privacy rights, self determination, etc. etc.
 
Are you going to start this 'if you don't help them the way I consider help, then you're not helping at all', argument?

And what if the person helping is retarded and does the wrong thing? I mean, everybody who voted for Trump is clinically retarded. That's a majority of the American population. A lot of helping is in fact "helping" and just makes life harder for everybody. Considering the number of empowered idiots in USA the world needs to fear USA's "help". Being an idiot is fine if it also comes with insecurity. But nothing it more dangerous than an empowered moron. Dunning-Kruger and all that.

A lot of people don't seem to grasp the vitally important element of the definition of help - help is something that the person being helped actually wants.

If they didn't ask you to help (or at the very least say 'yes' when help was offered), then what you are doing is not helping; It is interfering.
 
And what if the person helping is retarded and does the wrong thing? I mean, everybody who voted for Trump is clinically retarded. That's a majority of the American population. A lot of helping is in fact "helping" and just makes life harder for everybody. Considering the number of empowered idiots in USA the world needs to fear USA's "help". Being an idiot is fine if it also comes with insecurity. But nothing it more dangerous than an empowered moron. Dunning-Kruger and all that.

Sorry, but a majority of Americans did not vote for Trump. He'll end up getting about 2% less votes than HRC after all the balloting is completed.

A majority of Americans didn't vote AT ALL. Selecting a range of representatives based crudely on the proportion of voters who support each makes some kind of sense. But selecting your one and only president based on a difference of 62,000,000 votes vs 60,000,000 votes for a population of 350,000,000 people isn't democratic, it isn't sensible, it isn't fair, and it isn't a good idea. Nor would making the process more democratic help to fix that; A president elected by 150,000,000 votes to 140,000,000 who was despised by 140,000,000 people would not be as good a president as someone selected by a panel of experts on the basis of their proven ability to grasp the key concepts and issues that president of the USA faces when doing his job.

Being popular is simply not one of the qualifications that makes for a good president - where 'good' is defined as bringing the most benefit and least harm to the interests of most citizens.
 
A president elected by 150,000,000 votes to 140,000,000 who was despised by 140,000,000 people would not be as good a president as someone selected by a panel of experts on the basis of their proven ability to grasp the key concepts and issues that president of the USA faces when doing his job.

Where ya gonna get a panel of experts? Let the morons elect them?
 
A president elected by 150,000,000 votes to 140,000,000 who was despised by 140,000,000 people would not be as good a president as someone selected by a panel of experts on the basis of their proven ability to grasp the key concepts and issues that president of the USA faces when doing his job.

Where ya gonna get a panel of experts? Let the morons elect them?

Are you suggesting that there is no way to determine who is knowledgeable and who is not?

What is the point of universities and schools, if that is the case?
 
Where ya gonna get a panel of experts? Let the morons elect them?

Are you suggesting that there is no way to determine who is knowledgeable and who is not?

What is the point of universities and schools, if that is the case?

Look, I'd prefer SOME sort of aristocracy to what we have now. But I've also learned that a degree doth not a learned person make. Maybe it's because I'm a highschool dropout. But I learned how to learn before dropping out, and that matters more than being boned up on some narrow subject. How could anyone measure that?
 
That's one way to help. Another is to give them money, clothing, job opportunitites, food.

Or lobbying for government support.

"We should help as a society" is a valid alternative to "I should help directly as an individual". Unless you are a sociopath.

Indeed, given that there are far more homeless people than one person can help, a collective solution is the only viable alternative. Societies can do more than individuals. Many hands make light work.

^^^ that
 
Are you suggesting that there is no way to determine who is knowledgeable and who is not?

What is the point of universities and schools, if that is the case?

Look, I'd prefer SOME sort of aristocracy to what we have now. But I've also learned that a degree doth not a learned person make. Maybe it's because I'm a highschool dropout. But I learned how to learn before dropping out, and that matters more than being boned up on some narrow subject. How could anyone measure that?

I don't have a degree either. But it is nevertheless obvious to me that expertise can be measured to an adequate extent as to identify a minimum set of abilities to qualify a candidate for consideration when filling a job. As there is only ever one president at a time, most suitable candidates will not get the job - but that's OK, as long as whoever does get the job is not demonstrably unsuitable.

It is annoying to me that many jobs I could do well are closed to me because I don't have a BSc; and it is also annoying that some people who do have a BSc are demonstrably incompetent at their jobs. But that doesn't imply that requiring all applicants to have a BSc as a minimum standard before any other considerations are made is a bad idea - it is a way of filtering out the no-hopers, and that's a vital step when trying to narrow down a large pool of candidates for a single position. That is catches a few people who might have done a good job is irrelevant, as long as there are more such people left as a proportion of the pool after the filter has been applied.

There are 350,000,000 Americans. Only two end up as candidates with a serious chance of becoming president. There are already rules in place to eliminate some Americans as 'unsuitable' - Under 35s, People not natural born citizens of the US, People who have not been resident for 14 years - Obviously these restrictions eliminate some people who might make good candidates for the job, but it is better to be certain to disallow any 9 year old than it is to allow for a 34 year old who is an otherwise excellent candidate. I would propose that some minimum knowledge of facts should be required for candidates. This need not include contentious issues - just basic factual information about reality.

How can you have a president who doesn't know what the constitution says? Or the names of the heads of state of the OECD nations? Why not test at least that basic knowledge, as a minimum qualification for candidacy?

As I posted elsewhere, perhaps the Presidency shouldn't be a democratically elected post at all, being as it is a single person selected from the entire eligible population. There is no real room for compromise from the voters in selecting a single position, so inevitably most voters will get a president they didn't want.

My thought (and I welcome criticism of it) is that the POTUS should be non-partisan, chosen in a manner that makes it difficult or impossible for anyone to engineer their way into the job, and a matter of civic duty, rather than a post for which only those who deeply desire it can be selected.

One way I could see it working would be like this:

The IRS compiles a list of taxpayers, ranked by the sum total of their net taxes paid in the past four years.
Starting at the top of the list, those persons who are ineligible for the presidency under the current qualifying criteria (age, citizenship, prior service as POTUS, etc.) are struck off.
Persons who have donated to a political party, PAC, Super PAC or similar are also struck off the list. Perhaps some further tests might be applied to eliminate people who are obviously unsuitable.
When the person is found who is the highest net taxpayer who is not disqualified by the above criteria, a carload of Secret Service agents is sent to collect them, and they are installed as POTUS for the next four years, after which the process is repeated.

Any person who has a serious aversion to being selected as POTUS, can simply donate $1 to the political party of their choice, prior to the end of the tax year before the 'election', thereby disqualifying themselves.

The result should be a POTUS who is fairly randomly selected, is essentially apolitical, doesn't actively hate the idea of being president, but who hasn't actively lobbied to get there either, and who has made a success of their life to the point where they pay a fair bit of tax, without stiffing the country by using large-scale tax avoidance schemes. Of course, the separation of powers will continue, allowing Congress and the courts to keep the president's power in check; Congress will have no partisan excuse to block reasonable actions by the president, and the president would not have partisan reasons to veto reasonable legislation.

It's a half-formed thought at this stage; But it seems to me to be of merit in eliminating the petty party politics that surrounds the current holder of the executive powers. Of course, it could never happen, because the people who would lose out in the implementation of such a scheme are the same people who stand to lose the most by it. But perhaps it could be implemented after your society has finished its collapse, as part of the recovery in the post-apocalyptic wasteland.
 
Or lobbying for government support.

"We should help as a society" is a valid alternative to "I should help directly as an individual". Unless you are a sociopath.

Indeed, given that there are far more homeless people than one person can help, a collective solution is the only viable alternative. Societies can do more than individuals. Many hands make light work.

^^^ that

is nonsense.

Finished your sentence for you.
 
bilby;353175[B said:
]

How can you have a president who doesn't know what the constitution says? Or the names of the heads of state of the OECD nations? Why not test at least that basic knowledge, as a minimum qualification for candidacy?
[/B]

As I posted elsewhere, perhaps the Presidency shouldn't be a democratically elected post at all, being as it is a single person selected from the entire eligible population. There is no real room for compromise from the voters in selecting a single position, so inevitably most voters will get a president they didn't want.

My thought (and I welcome criticism of it) is that the POTUS should be non-partisan, chosen in a manner that makes it difficult or impossible for anyone to engineer their way into the job, and a matter of civic duty, rather than a post for which only those who deeply desire it can be selected.

So, POTUS is a ceremonial Queen/King for a 4 year term?

Because what you are suggesting is a)contradicted the first paragraph in the section I quoted/ighlighted above--the obvious case of Trump and b) is absolutely contrary to the fact that POTUS is much more than ceremonial and in fact, has significant duties and responsibilities that require a base of knowledge that is both broad and deep, as well as some wisdom, some personal traits and characteristics: i.e. being of sound mind and body, being temperamentally fit to lead, being capable of leading, being WILLING to lead, being able to lead in a direction that is in the best interests of a)the United Statesand its peoples and b) the world at large, including but not limited to its various allies and trading partners. c) the earth itself.

We've done a piss poor job selecting someone this go round. It's hard to imagine doing a worse job if doing a worse job were the exact task we set for ourselves, including electing a 9 year old.

I wouldn't even want to see Australia select its leaders in such a fashion--no offense to Australia, and I live on the other side of the world.

The only way--and I mean the ONLY way to ensure that we do a decent job of selecting a well qualified, competent POTUS who precisely runs for the job as a matter of civic duty (fat lot of good that has done Hillary), is to ensure a well educated population. The Republicans have done a bang up job for the past 20-30 years convincing us that public education is a waste of time, is a failure and must be tested multiple times a year on tests that measure very little and allow very little opportunity to teach anything but how to pass the stupid tests.
 
bilby;353175[B said:
]

How can you have a president who doesn't know what the constitution says? Or the names of the heads of state of the OECD nations? Why not test at least that basic knowledge, as a minimum qualification for candidacy?
[/B]

As I posted elsewhere, perhaps the Presidency shouldn't be a democratically elected post at all, being as it is a single person selected from the entire eligible population. There is no real room for compromise from the voters in selecting a single position, so inevitably most voters will get a president they didn't want.

My thought (and I welcome criticism of it) is that the POTUS should be non-partisan, chosen in a manner that makes it difficult or impossible for anyone to engineer their way into the job, and a matter of civic duty, rather than a post for which only those who deeply desire it can be selected.

So, POTUS is a ceremonial Queen/King for a 4 year term?

Because what you are suggesting is a)contradicted the first paragraph in the section I quoted/ighlighted above--the obvious case of Trump and b) is absolutely contrary to the fact that POTUS is much more than ceremonial and in fact, has significant duties and responsibilities that require a base of knowledge that is both broad and deep, as well as some wisdom, some personal traits and characteristics: i.e. being of sound mind and body, being temperamentally fit to lead, being capable of leading, being WILLING to lead, being able to lead in a direction that is in the best interests of a)the United Statesand its peoples and b) the world at large, including but not limited to its various allies and trading partners. c) the earth itself.

We've done a piss poor job selecting someone this go round. It's hard to imagine doing a worse job if doing a worse job were the exact task we set for ourselves, including electing a 9 year old.

I wouldn't even want to see Australia select its leaders in such a fashion--no offense to Australia, and I live on the other side of the world.

The only way--and I mean the ONLY way to ensure that we do a decent job of selecting a well qualified, competent POTUS who precisely runs for the job as a matter of civic duty (fat lot of good that has done Hillary), is to ensure a well educated population. The Republicans have done a bang up job for the past 20-30 years convincing us that public education is a waste of time, is a failure and must be tested multiple times a year on tests that measure very little and allow very little opportunity to teach anything but how to pass the stupid tests.

This response contains some things I agree with, and some that I disagree with.

What it does not contain, as far as I can tell, is a response to what I actually wrote.

I never said a word about making the presidency ceremonial; The only changes I would possibly suggest to the presidential powers would be the possibility of greater oversight from the legislature, as a sop to those who would object to the lessening of the power of the people as a result of reducing the democratic input into his selection.

Basically you appear to be opposing something unrelated to what I suggested.
 
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