Vote suppression -- now we have some evidence of the effects

[Loren Pechtel]

I'd like to understand what the original forms of acceptable ID were, and what they were changed to... If the original form of id is just a persons say-so, or some piece of mail that can be pulled out of any curb-side mailbox, then I would say that there were NO requierments to establish your identity, and now there are. but, educate me... what were those original forms of ID that were previously sufficient on their own and are now no longer sufficient.

Around here you need to present reasonable ID to register. The polls are always happy to accept my voter packet as identification for voting.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It's not a matter of intelligence. ID rules are intended to disenfranchise the poor.

How so?

The poor face a greater burden on getting ID, they are more likely to lose it (living in higher crime areas they're more likely to have the place they have it stolen) and they have less need of it.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

*not fooling anyone.

 

[Shadowy Man]

If it's so inexpensive to get an ID that would qualify for voting, then surely the government can foot the bill and give them out for free to everyone. And please don't ask why it should be the government's responsibility to ensure that everyone retains their right to vote.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The real question becomes whether this also made a big enough difference in the Senate. Had Feingold beaten Johnson, the majority in the Senate would have been even tighter! So tight, every town in Alaska would be building an International Airport right now.

 

[Elixir]

I'd like to understand what the original forms of acceptable ID were, and what they were changed to... If the original form of id is just a persons say-so, or some piece of mail that can be pulled out of any curb-side mailbox, then I would say that there were NO requierments to establish your identity, and now there are. but, educate me... what were those original forms of ID that were previously sufficient on their own and are now no longer sufficient.

Around here you need to present reasonable ID to register. The polls are always happy to accept my voter packet as identification for voting.

Even when you show up with a shopping cart full of the voter packets you stole out of a big row of mailboxes?
Not saying that happens, but people are writing it - they're saying it happens. I don't know, but those 3 million illegal votes had to come from somewhere!

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Around here you need to present reasonable ID to register. The polls are always happy to accept my voter packet as identification for voting.

Even when you show up with a shopping cart full of the voter packets you stole out of a big row of mailboxes?
Not saying that happens, but people are writing it - they're saying it happens. I don't know, but those 3 million illegal votes had to come from somewhere!

Those 3 million illegal votes came out of His Flatulence's ass.

His vote fraud commission has been grasping at straws trying to find evidence of fraud, so far everything they have "found" hasn't been fraud. (For example, a state that says you can vote there if that's where you generally are even if you're not legally a resident. Sounds like someone staying there for a long-term project of some kind. Say, attending the university. Yup, when they actually try to validate the data that's what they find--the first 4 they contacted were university students.)

 

[LordKiran]

Look people, we got a live one! The lesser spotted non-id holder.

How do you function? Obviously you don't drive, so how do you get places? [1]
Do you have a bank account? How did you open it without id? Do you ever have to cash a check? [2]
Do you ever buy alcohol? How? [3]
Do you ever enter restricted buildings? How do you manage that? [4]
Oh, and how old are you anyway? [5]

You have some strange ideas about our country.

Well, then enlighten us. [6]

Firstly we don't have a national ID like most places. Just get that out of the way right now. Each state issues its own identification which pulls double duty as a driver's license which the licensee is required to pay a substantial amount of money for in cash.

- There is a national id, called the passport. But I know what you mean, the plastic card-shaped ids are state issued. However, in 2005 a law was passed to standardize id security among the states. It is called Real id. [7]
- It's the other way around. If you have a DL, it doubles as state id. But if you don't drive you can get id only.
- I do not know what "substantial amount of money" is to you, buy to me DL fees aren't it. And id only are cheaper, and in many states with photo id voting requirements you can get a voter id for free.

1. I walk or use public transit. Its doesn't offer easy access to everything (Notably, government offices) but my immediate needs are all within a mile's walk. Note this is not true for everyone.
2. Most minimum wage jobs do not pay their employees in checks actually. Most direct deposit into a debit card as an option and this is usually the go to, especially in poor urban environments where people don't have easy access to something like a bank.
3. I reserve drinking for social occasions in private. Otherwise I prefer not to as my experience with alcohol has been that it is destructive to the people around me more than anything else.
4. I guess not, as I can't remember the last time merely entering a building required me to identify myself.
5. 25, and I'll say that the reason I don't have an ID isn't because I don't want one, its because actually getting one proves incredibly difficult if your means are limited as mine are. This is why voter ID laws disenfranchise the poor.

6. I just did. Not everybody owns identification and if they don't then its not always because they merely wish to 'remain off the grid'. If you ask me, state ID (At least for the first time!) should be provided at cost.

7. Except not really. In reality, your real ID is your SSC which is problematic for a whole host of reasons

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Erp8IAUouus[/YOUTUBE]

 

[Copernicus]

Others have made the same point, but it is worth repeating: If the government requires an ID, and the voter has to pay for that ID, then that should be considered an illegal poll tax. Voting is a citizenship right, not a privilege. Such IDs should be issued cost-free to individual citizens.

 

[LordKiran]

Since some are having a hard time grasping just how difficult obtaining an ID can be let me tell you of my current living situation. I've told this story in part before but to reiterate:

My boyfriend and I currently live in the upstairs of a three story house, caring for his elderly parents. In return we are given a place to live without charge. Beyond that, we meet day to day expenses with his disability which comes up to around 700 a month. We still have to buy a lot of our own food and various domestic goods but we have the benefit of not paying rent or utilities. And I still have a hard time getting an ID. I have a hard time because the nearest dmv is over 20 miles away and only gives out IDs on certain days of the week, and he doesn't drive or own a car either, so if I were to get down there I would either have to find someone in our community willing to help me out, or walk two miles to the bus terminal, wait god knows how long for a bus that would take me there and then find a way back home because there may or may not be a bus to bring me back.

Now Derec in particular, I want you to do something for me.

I want you to imagine that you were in my position, but you did not have the fortune to not have to pay rent, or utility bills. I want you to imagine that instead of a partner who has the benefit of a disability check, you have a partner in otherwise good health. I want you to imagine that the community in which you live does not always have access to amenities you find in suburban america (Grocery stores, banks, ect.) Most importantly I want you to imagine that the benefactors are replaced with complete dependents that do nothing on their own to improve your lot in life (Children usually) And while you might receive government assistance in one or many forms, this only helps cover your bases barely. And now, even though you're in a dire situation where every penny counts, imagine that just before the next election the local government dictates that you must have a 'Valid' ID which was just (Totally coincidentally I'm sure) recently changed. How do you afford this new expenditure (Because that's just what the American poor need.) just to exercise your right to vote?

 

[fast]

What is wrong with voters bringing some kind of ID to vote?

It disenfranchises people who don't have any officially accepted ID. This is not a class of voter whose distribution is uniform across the political spectrum, so the result is to bias the results in favour of the parties and candidates whose supporters are most likely to have an accepted ID.

This is particularly problematic in the US south, but even in other parts of the country it is mainly black people who are unable to vote as a result of these rules; and the detailed implementation of these rules - which forms of ID are and are not considered acceptable - makes very clear that the unstated purpose is to minimise the vote amongst that section of the population.

Or perhaps it's purely coincidental that the effect of rules imposed just happens to burden black people more than it does whites. Just like it's purely coincidental that there are far fewer voting places in black dominated districts, leading to long lines and suppressed turnout.

It's amazing how many rules that have nothing to do with race turn out to completely coincidentally disfavour blacks in the US. If the people making the rules weren't so quick to assure us that it's all purely coincidental, it could almost be mistaken for systemic racism.

I read this the other night. I can't even begin to explain the volcanic rant that built up inside me. Had I responded at the time, you would have envisioned me typing away with hair on fire.

 

[Malintent]

Look people, we got a live one! The lesser spotted non-id holder.

How do you function? Obviously you don't drive, so how do you get places?
Do you have a bank account? How did you open it without id? Do you ever have to cash a check?
Do you ever buy alcohol? How?
Do you ever enter restricted buildings? How do you manage that?
Oh, and how old are you anyway?

You have some strange ideas about our country.

Well, then enlighten us.

Firstly we don't have a national ID like most places. Just get that out of the way right now. Each state issues its own identification which pulls double duty as a driver's license which the licensee is required to pay a substantial amount of money for in cash.

- There is a national id, called the passport. But I know what you mean, the plastic card-shaped ids are state issued. However, in 2005 a law was passed to standardize id security among the states. It is called Real id.
- It's the other way around. If you have a DL, it doubles as state id. But if you don't drive you can get id only.
- I do not know what "substantial amount of money" is to you, buy to me DL fees aren't it. And id only are cheaper, and in many states with photo id voting requirements you can get a voter id for free.

In NY, a non-driver ID (Real ID) costs $8 and is good for 4 years... splurge on an 8 year for $13, if you want.
Note the 4 year ID costs less than a round trip on the subway.

 

[Malintent]

How so?

The poor face a greater burden on getting ID, they are more likely to lose it (living in higher crime areas they're more likely to have the place they have it stolen) and they have less need of it.

This is not responsive to the question "why is it harder for the poor to get acceptable ID".

This seems more of a response to "why do the poor seem so irresponsible with Identification" (answer: they're not - they have their IDs stolen more often, which is not irresponsibility but instead is... something else.. because people think they don't need them or something like that".

 

[LordKiran]

Look people, we got a live one! The lesser spotted non-id holder.

How do you function? Obviously you don't drive, so how do you get places?
Do you have a bank account? How did you open it without id? Do you ever have to cash a check?
Do you ever buy alcohol? How?
Do you ever enter restricted buildings? How do you manage that?
Oh, and how old are you anyway?


Well, then enlighten us.

Firstly we don't have a national ID like most places. Just get that out of the way right now. Each state issues its own identification which pulls double duty as a driver's license which the licensee is required to pay a substantial amount of money for in cash.

- There is a national id, called the passport. But I know what you mean, the plastic card-shaped ids are state issued. However, in 2005 a law was passed to standardize id security among the states. It is called Real id.
- It's the other way around. If you have a DL, it doubles as state id. But if you don't drive you can get id only.
- I do not know what "substantial amount of money" is to you, buy to me DL fees aren't it. And id only are cheaper, and in many states with photo id voting requirements you can get a voter id for free.

In NY, a non-driver ID (Real ID) costs $8 and is good for 4 years... splurge on an 8 year for $13, if you want.
Note the 4 year ID costs less than a round trip on the subway.

Not including travel expenses or the day off work required to actually get there. Did you feel those aren't relevant?

 

[Malintent]

Look people, we got a live one! The lesser spotted non-id holder.

How do you function? Obviously you don't drive, so how do you get places?
Do you have a bank account? How did you open it without id? Do you ever have to cash a check?
Do you ever buy alcohol? How?
Do you ever enter restricted buildings? How do you manage that?
Oh, and how old are you anyway?


Well, then enlighten us.

Firstly we don't have a national ID like most places. Just get that out of the way right now. Each state issues its own identification which pulls double duty as a driver's license which the licensee is required to pay a substantial amount of money for in cash.

- There is a national id, called the passport. But I know what you mean, the plastic card-shaped ids are state issued. However, in 2005 a law was passed to standardize id security among the states. It is called Real id.
- It's the other way around. If you have a DL, it doubles as state id. But if you don't drive you can get id only.
- I do not know what "substantial amount of money" is to you, buy to me DL fees aren't it. And id only are cheaper, and in many states with photo id voting requirements you can get a voter id for free.

In NY, a non-driver ID (Real ID) costs $8 and is good for 4 years... splurge on an 8 year for $13, if you want.
Note the 4 year ID costs less than a round trip on the subway.

Not including travel expenses or the day off work required to actually get there. Did you feel those aren't relevant?

Yes. I feel those are not relevant in this discussion. That is because we are talking about the need for Identification to vote, not a proposition to compel employers to pay people for the day of work on election days, nor a proposal to compel the Department of Transportation to subsidize travel costs to voting places on election days.

I'd be willing to discuss that, but not in an 'open-ended' (forever moving goalposts) "discussion" on everything wrong with anything.

 

[Copernicus]

Look people, we got a live one! The lesser spotted non-id holder.

How do you function? Obviously you don't drive, so how do you get places?
Do you have a bank account? How did you open it without id? Do you ever have to cash a check?
Do you ever buy alcohol? How?
Do you ever enter restricted buildings? How do you manage that?
Oh, and how old are you anyway?


Well, then enlighten us.

Firstly we don't have a national ID like most places. Just get that out of the way right now. Each state issues its own identification which pulls double duty as a driver's license which the licensee is required to pay a substantial amount of money for in cash.

- There is a national id, called the passport. But I know what you mean, the plastic card-shaped ids are state issued. However, in 2005 a law was passed to standardize id security among the states. It is called Real id.
- It's the other way around. If you have a DL, it doubles as state id. But if you don't drive you can get id only.
- I do not know what "substantial amount of money" is to you, buy to me DL fees aren't it. And id only are cheaper, and in many states with photo id voting requirements you can get a voter id for free.

In NY, a non-driver ID (Real ID) costs $8 and is good for 4 years... splurge on an 8 year for $13, if you want.
Note the 4 year ID costs less than a round trip on the subway.

Not including travel expenses or the day off work required to actually get there. Did you feel those aren't relevant?

The point in NY is that a great many Democratic voters in NYC do not own cars or drive, because public transportation is cheaper and more convenient. They don't usually need the ID except to vote. Those who live upstate or out on the island (i.e. in more Republican-infested areas) do need the drivers license. It isn't an insurmountable barrier to get the non-driver ID, but nor is it a high priority in the lives of most people. Vote shaving games like this are not going to matter much in most elections, which are not that close, but they do sometimes help.

 

[laughing dog]

Look people, we got a live one! The lesser spotted non-id holder.

How do you function? Obviously you don't drive, so how do you get places?
Do you have a bank account? How did you open it without id? Do you ever have to cash a check?
Do you ever buy alcohol? How?
Do you ever enter restricted buildings? How do you manage that?
Oh, and how old are you anyway?


Well, then enlighten us.

Firstly we don't have a national ID like most places. Just get that out of the way right now. Each state issues its own identification which pulls double duty as a driver's license which the licensee is required to pay a substantial amount of money for in cash.

- There is a national id, called the passport. But I know what you mean, the plastic card-shaped ids are state issued. However, in 2005 a law was passed to standardize id security among the states. It is called Real id.
- It's the other way around. If you have a DL, it doubles as state id. But if you don't drive you can get id only.
- I do not know what "substantial amount of money" is to you, buy to me DL fees aren't it. And id only are cheaper, and in many states with photo id voting requirements you can get a voter id for free.

In NY, a non-driver ID (Real ID) costs $8 and is good for 4 years... splurge on an 8 year for $13, if you want.
Note the 4 year ID costs less than a round trip on the subway.

Not including travel expenses or the day off work required to actually get there. Did you feel those aren't relevant?

Yes. I feel those are not relevant in this discussion. That is because we are talking about the need for Identification to vote, not a proposition to compel employers to pay people for the day of work on election days, nor a proposal to compel the Department of Transportation to subsidize travel costs to voting places on election days.

If you thought about it, the cost of obtaining a voter ID should include all the costs of obtaining the ID, not the expense of the ID. For a low income person, the expense of the transportation to and from the possibly remote office and the sacrifice of giving up a days' pay may be prohibitive, Waving those possible costs as "irrelevant" is, at the least, insensitive to reality.

 

[OLDMAN]

Look people, we got a live one! The lesser spotted non-id holder.

How do you function? Obviously you don't drive, so how do you get places?
Do you have a bank account? How did you open it without id? Do you ever have to cash a check?
Do you ever buy alcohol? How?
Do you ever enter restricted buildings? How do you manage that?
Oh, and how old are you anyway?


Well, then enlighten us.

Firstly we don't have a national ID like most places. Just get that out of the way right now. Each state issues its own identification which pulls double duty as a driver's license which the licensee is required to pay a substantial amount of money for in cash.

- There is a national id, called the passport. But I know what you mean, the plastic card-shaped ids are state issued. However, in 2005 a law was passed to standardize id security among the states. It is called Real id.
- It's the other way around. If you have a DL, it doubles as state id. But if you don't drive you can get id only.
- I do not know what "substantial amount of money" is to you, buy to me DL fees aren't it. And id only are cheaper, and in many states with photo id voting requirements you can get a voter id for free.

In NY, a non-driver ID (Real ID) costs $8 and is good for 4 years... splurge on an 8 year for $13, if you want.
Note the 4 year ID costs less than a round trip on the subway.

Not including travel expenses or the day off work required to actually get there. Did you feel those aren't relevant?

Yes. I feel those are not relevant in this discussion. That is because we are talking about the need for Identification to vote, not a proposition to compel employers to pay people for the day of work on election days, nor a proposal to compel the Department of Transportation to subsidize travel costs to voting places on election days.

If you thought about it, the cost of obtaining a voter ID should include all the costs of obtaining the ID, not the expense of the ID. For a low income person, the expense of the transportation to and from the possibly remote office and the sacrifice of giving up a days' pay may be prohibitive, Waving those possible costs as "irrelevant" is, at the least, insensitive to reality.

But if the voter is registered to vote, then a simple power bill to that address should really be enough. Do Americans have sin numbers? Health cards? All of these things can show address. Finally a voter can swear another voter in...but in the end shouldn't the voter at least be engaged enough to bother to ensure they can vote? If their not, then who the fuck should care...oh yeah someone who wants to win an election.

 

[LordKiran]

Look people, we got a live one! The lesser spotted non-id holder.

How do you function? Obviously you don't drive, so how do you get places?
Do you have a bank account? How did you open it without id? Do you ever have to cash a check?
Do you ever buy alcohol? How?
Do you ever enter restricted buildings? How do you manage that?
Oh, and how old are you anyway?


Well, then enlighten us.

Firstly we don't have a national ID like most places. Just get that out of the way right now. Each state issues its own identification which pulls double duty as a driver's license which the licensee is required to pay a substantial amount of money for in cash.

- There is a national id, called the passport. But I know what you mean, the plastic card-shaped ids are state issued. However, in 2005 a law was passed to standardize id security among the states. It is called Real id.
- It's the other way around. If you have a DL, it doubles as state id. But if you don't drive you can get id only.
- I do not know what "substantial amount of money" is to you, buy to me DL fees aren't it. And id only are cheaper, and in many states with photo id voting requirements you can get a voter id for free.

In NY, a non-driver ID (Real ID) costs $8 and is good for 4 years... splurge on an 8 year for $13, if you want.
Note the 4 year ID costs less than a round trip on the subway.

Not including travel expenses or the day off work required to actually get there. Did you feel those aren't relevant?

Yes. I feel those are not relevant in this discussion. That is because we are talking about the need for Identification to vote, not a proposition to compel employers to pay people for the day of work on election days, nor a proposal to compel the Department of Transportation to subsidize travel costs to voting places on election days.

If you thought about it, the cost of obtaining a voter ID should include all the costs of obtaining the ID, not the expense of the ID. For a low income person, the expense of the transportation to and from the possibly remote office and the sacrifice of giving up a days' pay may be prohibitive, Waving those possible costs as "irrelevant" is, at the least, insensitive to reality.

But if the voter is registered to vote, then a simple power bill to that address should really be enough. Do Americans have sin numbers? Health cards? All of these things can show address. Finally a voter can swear another voter in...but in the end shouldn't the voter at least be engaged enough to bother to ensure they can vote? If their not, then who the fuck should care...oh yeah someone who wants to win an election.

Removing frivolous voter ID laws is a pretty good way to ensure you can vote.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

Look people, we got a live one! The lesser spotted non-id holder.

How do you function? Obviously you don't drive, so how do you get places?
Do you have a bank account? How did you open it without id? Do you ever have to cash a check?
Do you ever buy alcohol? How?
Do you ever enter restricted buildings? How do you manage that?
Oh, and how old are you anyway?

I've done all of these things without ID.
I've never had a problem.
I've even crossed international borders and went through customs without an ID.