Were Russia and US ever allies? (Split from How should west respond to potential (likely) Russian invasion of Ukraine?)

[bilby]

Canada and America supplied Russia with materials and weapons in WWII, even though we were not allies.

Er, yes, you were.

I am flabbergasted that anyone who was alive in the C20th doesn't know this...

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

Never underestimate the ignorance of your average American.

 

[fromderinside]

Canada and America supplied Russia with materials and weapons in WWII, even though we were not allies.

Er, yes, you were.

I am flabbergasted that anyone who was alive in the C20th doesn't know this...

https://ru.usembassy.gov/world-war-ii-allies-u-s-lend-lease-to-the-soviet-union-1941-1945/

How can we be allies if we aren't yet in the conflict. Sure the US government had sentiments. It just didn't have alliances or treaties. We were non-combatant allies of Great Britain and because of this we were asked by the Brits to extend services to USSR. We did a favor but we weren't allies.

 

[Hermit]

How can we be allies if we aren't yet in the conflict. Sure the US government had sentiments. It just didn't have alliances or treaties. We were non-combatant allies of Great Britain and because of this we were asked by the Brits to extend services to USSR. We did a favor but we weren't allies.

The USA and the USSR were de facto allies in the same way the USA and the UK were: non-combatant. Do you for a moment think that The USA is not an ally of the Ukraine because it does not have a formal treaty and is not involved in direct combat?

 

[Harry Bosch]

Canada and America supplied Russia with materials and weapons in WWII, even though we were not allies.

Er, yes, you were.

I am flabbergasted that anyone who was alive in the C20th doesn't know this...

https://ru.usembassy.gov/world-war-ii-allies-u-s-lend-lease-to-the-soviet-union-1941-1945/

How can we be allies if we aren't yet in the conflict. Sure the US government had sentiments. It just didn't have alliances or treaties. We were non-combatant allies of Great Britain and because of this we were asked by the Brits to extend services to USSR. We did a favor but we weren't allies.

Yes, we're allies! We're not in direct combat against Russia. But we're sending arms to Ukraine, training their soldiers, helping their economy, using our cyber against Russia; anything that we can do short of starting a nuclear war we're doing. Meanwhile, through all this, Russia continues to demand fully unconditional Ukranian surrender before they'll talk. Unbelievable. Russia is self-destructing. And they have nonone to blame but themselves and Putler.

 

[pood]

Canada and America supplied Russia with materials and weapons in WWII, even though we were not allies.

Er, yes, you were.

I am flabbergasted that anyone who was alive in the C20th doesn't know this...

https://ru.usembassy.gov/world-war-ii-allies-u-s-lend-lease-to-the-soviet-union-1941-1945/

How can we be allies if we aren't yet in the conflict. Sure the US government had sentiments. It just didn't have alliances or treaties. We were non-combatant allies of Great Britain and because of this we were asked by the Brits to extend services to USSR. We did a favor but we weren't allies.

That’s correct, but only for a short period of time. U.S., officially neutral, began extending lend-lease aid to the Soviets in October 1941. After Pearl Harbor, two months later, the U.S. and the Soviets became allies.

 

[bilby]

The US and the Russians were never allies.

That's abject nonsense, and a rewriting of history worthy of Orwell's Ministry of Truth.

 

[Patooka]

The US and the Russians were never allies.

That's abject nonsense, and a rewriting of history worthy of Orwell's Ministry of Truth.

Pretty much.

Take away the internet's love for bullshit semantic arguments and it was an alliance by any measure, and more stable than most.

 

[Copernicus]

The US and the Russians were never allies.

That's abject nonsense, and a rewriting of history worthy of Orwell's Ministry of Truth.

Pretty much.

Take away the internet's love for bullshit semantic arguments and it was an alliance by any measure, and more stable than most.

Russia had the manpower, but not the weapons, much of which the US supplied. My high school Russian teacher had learned his Russian while working in the massive operation to supply weapons to the Soviet Union across the Pacific Ocean and through the Sea of Okhotsk.

 

[Hermit]

The US and the Russians were never allies.

You're confusing alliance with friendship.

 

[steve_bank]

An alliance of convenience, but Russia was not one the Allies. Semantics. Literal meaning ignoring how it actually was.

Anyone know who Klaus Fuchs was? Stalin had a spy in the middle of our nuclear program.

Truman thought he had an ace in the hole with nuclear weapons when dealing with Stalin, but Stalin knew about it all along.

Our Russian ally quickly moved to seize and controlled Eastern Europe, as Churchill warned all along. The division of Germany. Pre war Stain looked at Estern Europe and the Baics as a potential buffer with Europe.

Canada, Americn, the Brits, Australia, and New Zealand were allies in the true sense. One for all and all for one, so to speak.

Stalinism/communism was out to end the western systems violently if needed. Putin is a throwback. Putin wants Ukraine and the Baltcs as a buffer between Russia and NATO. Maybe he really believes NATO would attack without provocation. Why would anybody want to invade Russia, it was providing cheap energy.

For some reason to Churchill's dismay FDR warmed up to Stalin. Truman saw Stalin for what he was, a brutal dictator with an antagonistic communist ideology.

 

[steve_bank]

The US and the Russians were never allies.

You're confusing alliance with friendship.

ahat? Stalin was neuter friend nor one of the Allies. Diplomatically we call Saudi Arabia a friend or ally idespite of the nature of the regime. If not for Ira's threat to Israel we would denounce Saudai Arabia as we do Iran.

Realpolitik as was the support for Russia in WWII.

 

[Hermit]

The US and the Russians were never allies.

You're confusing alliance with friendship.

ahat? Stalin was neuter friend

Not a friend, no.

nor one of the Allies.

You keep making that assertion without backing it up. Riffing on the "No true Scotsman" theme won't do.

Realpolitik as was the support for Russia in WWII.

Realpolitik is the dominant factor determining alliances. That's why so many allies have changed sides throughout history.

 

[bilby]

Russia was not one the Allies

Yes, they fucking were.

Stop digging.

 

[Tigers!]

The US and the Russians were never allies.

You're confusing alliance with friendship.

ahat? Stalin was neuter friend nor one of the Allies. Diplomatically we call Saudi Arabia a friend or ally idespite of the nature of the regime. If not for Ira's threat to Israel we would denounce Saudai Arabia as we do Iran.

Realpolitik as was the support for Russia in WWII.

There are times when Churchill's word co-belligerents is a better term than ally or friendship. He used that term for the Italians who fought the Germans after Italy's surrender in Sep. 1943. Fighting the same enemy but not necessarily for the same or equivalent reasons or aims.

 

[Hermit]

There are times when Churchill's word co-belligerents is a better term than ally or friendship.

Nations are not motivated by friendship. They are motivated by self-interest. That is why alliances change so frequently. Realpolitik rules. The words co-belligerent and ally are synonymous.

By the way, the word "co-belligerent" was minted six decades before Churchill was born. It has not acquired much currency because "ally" is shorter and means the same thing.

 

[fromderinside]

How can we be allies if we aren't yet in the conflict. Sure the US government had sentiments. It just didn't have alliances or treaties. We were non-combatant allies of Great Britain and because of this we were asked by the Brits to extend services to USSR. We did a favor but we weren't allies.

The USA and the USSR were de facto allies in the same way the USA and the UK were: non-combatant. Do you for a moment think that The USA is not an ally of the Ukraine because it does not have a formal treaty and is not involved in direct combat?

Hey I was there in mummies womb reading the papers every day.

U.S.-Soviet Alliance, 1941-1945

U.S.-Soviet Alliance, 1941-1945

2001-2009.state.gov

The most important factor in swaying the Soviets eventually to enter into an alliance with the United States was the Nazi decision to launch its invasion of the Soviet Union in June 1941. President Roosevelt responded by dispatching his trusted aide Harry Lloyd Hopkins to Moscow in order to assess the Soviet military situation. Although the War Department had warned the President that the Soviets would not last more than six weeks, after two one-on-one meetings with Soviet Premier Josef Stalin, Hopkins urged Roosevelt to assist the Soviets. By the end of October, the first Lend-Lease aid to the Soviet Union was on its way. The United States entered the war as a belligerent in late 1941 and thus began coordinating directly with the Soviets, and the British, as allies

It turns out I am in error that Britain encouraged our becoming allies with Russia. It was entirely due to Germany's aggression against the USSR. However I'm correct when I said US and USSR were not allies until late 1941, coincident with extending lend-lease agreement to them in late1941. We began working with Britain in1940.

 

[Hermit]

How can we be allies if we aren't yet in the conflict. Sure the US government had sentiments. It just didn't have alliances or treaties. We were non-combatant allies of Great Britain and because of this we were asked by the Brits to extend services to USSR. We did a favor but we weren't allies.

The USA and the USSR were de facto allies in the same way the USA and the UK were: non-combatant. Do you for a moment think that The USA is not an ally of the Ukraine because it does not have a formal treaty and is not involved in direct combat?

Hey I was there in mummies womb reading the papers every day.e aggression against the USSR. However I'm correct when I said US and USSR were not allies until late 1941, coincident with extending lend-lease agreement to them in late1e 941. We began working with Britain in1940.

My objection is to the bit I coloured red. F. D. Roosevelt's administration was nobbled by four Neutrality Acts, the last of which was passed by Congress in November 1939. He had no choice but to use subterfuge in circumventing them while giving the USA an appearance of remaining neutral. He broke them with the lend-lease project before the US became a belligerent in the war. The USSR became a beneficiary of Lend-Lease in the shape of 50 million dollar credit before Germany invaded it on June 22, 1941. That is to say, neither the US nor the Soviet Union were belligerents at the time. After the commencement of the German invasion the USSR was officially declared eligible for lend-lease aid. It was a belligerent, but the USA was not until December 7, 1941.

Alliances are measured in terms of material support. Material support is not limited to direct boots on ground military participation. I would say NATO in general and the USA in particular are allied with Ukraine right now even though neither of the former are yet in the conflict by way of direct military involvement.

 

[Elixir]

Russia was not one the Allies

Yes, they fucking were.

Stop digging.

Really. FFS

The Allies, formally referred to as the United Nations from 1942 were an international military coalition formed during the Second World War to oppose the Axis powers, led by Nazi Germany, Imperial Japan, and Fascist Italy. Its principal members by 1941 were the United Kingdom, United States, Soviet Union, and China. Wikipedia

 

[barbos]

The US/GB were planning to use defeated Germany and their remaining nazi soldiers to start a war with USSR right after the end of WW2. Optics would have been horrible and they cancelled these plans. Waited 70 years and used ukrainian nazis to revive old plans.