What are your opinions about undocumented immigrants?

[Ruth Harris]

Recently I have been reading some things that made me stop and think about immigrants. Like most people, I never really considered what would impel someone to try to come to this country. Sure, I read all the news stories about gang violence, drug wars, dictators that only cared about having power, and lack of resources in other countries but I didn’t really stop to understand how it would make life intolerable for someone who was caught in the middle of those things.

We are a country that is supposed to value personal freedom above all. But we have made it almost impossible for anyone that is not financially well heeled to come here legally. More and more, I find myself contemplating the ending of The New Colossus by Emma Lazarus which is on the Statue of Liberty pedestal plaque:

“Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

I am unable to condemn all those who enter our country illegally. Can you imagine how bad it must be for someone to leave their home country, family and friends on just the chance that they could sneak into our country? A place where most of them don’t even speak the common language? The vast majority of these people are willing to work very hard for very little money, just so they can support themselves in this “land of the free”. Just stop and think about how bad it must have been in their own country to make that so attractive.

Sure, if they have come here to escape penalties for criminal acts in their own country and continue to do the same things here – deport them. But if someone is willing to work hard and try to assimilate into our culture, I can’t bring myself to think that they should be expelled. We need to make changes to our immigration laws so those who are not wealthy enough to pay their own way in can still have the chance to enter here legally.

Ruth

 

[WAB]

Very well said.

 

[TV and credit cards]

Imagine your little barrio in the middle of the jungle. You have your patch of land you grow your crop on and a small amount of fruit trees on the local mountain that are divided up amongst the various families in the community. You only pick fruit from your trees. If they do not produce, to bad. If a storm comes and wipes out your crop for that season and strips the trees of fruit, you go from subsistence living to abject poverty in a blink. There is no safety net. Nothing. You listen to your children wail as they starve. Do these people deserve entry if they can make it here or should we greatly expand organizations like Unicef that all wealthy nations would be required to pay for? How much migration can a nation absorb? Should there be low immigration periods of assimilation? We're always going to have hard-hearted people who can't see past their own selfishness. They're not going anywhere. How do we appease them without slipping into an authoritarian state.

As far as being "financially well heeled to come here legally" goes, this is true for so many countries or at a minimum, its bring your own healthcare coverage. Every time Trump is elected, these stories about emigrating to another country pop up and from what I've read, most people's options are very limited. But so much more is expected of everyone's favorite punching bag, the US.

 

[lostone]

I don't worry about them much. They simply are a low level concern to me. They do jobs no one else wants.

 

[TSwizzle]

Sure, if they have come here to escape penalties for criminal acts in their own country and continue to do the same things here – deport them.

Isn't that what is happening now?

In my opinion, you cannot have an open border and just allow 9m+ people into the country over three/four years. That is just reckless. So I am in agreement with the current administration in closing the door to that nonsense.

But if someone is willing to work hard and try to assimilate into our culture, I can’t bring myself to think that they should be expelled. We need to make changes to our immigration laws so those who are not wealthy enough to pay their own way in can still have the chance to enter here legally.

For sure, US immigration needs a huge overhaul. Coming to the USA as a legal immigrant is very difficult and can be very expensive for the average person. I think US immigration is purposely set up to be the way it is. The USA does not want new citizens. It takes years to become a naturalized citizen. I know quite a few people who have had green cards (permanent resident) who never became a naturalized citizen. A supposed route to green card status is through temporary work visas like the H-1B. This is an abusive relationship to be in. You may spend several years living and working in the USA and still not get permanent resident status and end up deported. I remember after the dot-com bubble popped a lot of B2B going on, Back to Bombay. The H-1B techs from India got booted. Yeah, US immigration is a shit show. I know, I have been through it.

 

[Elixir]

Isn't that what is happening now?

NO.

You listen to your children wail as they starve. Do these people deserve entry if they can make it here or should we greatly expand organizations like Unicef that all wealthy nations would be required to pay for? How much migration can a nation absorb?

USAID was very VERY effective in this regard, so of course Trump killed it.
He'd do the same to UNICEF if he could, but it's a United Nations fund.

 

[James Brown]

I don't worry about them much. They simply are a low level concern to me. They do jobs no one else wants.

I think it's more accurate to say they work for wages no one else wants.

 

[ideologyhunter]

Obviously they need to marry well-connected, financially secure Americans. Just ask Melania. You think she married him because he was eye candy?

 

[Playball40]

Sure, if they have come here to escape penalties for criminal acts in their own country and continue to do the same things here – deport them.

Isn't that what is happening now?

In my opinion, you cannot have an open border and just allow 9m+ people into the country over three/four years. That is just reckless. So I am in agreement with the current administration in closing the door to that nonsense.

But if someone is willing to work hard and try to assimilate into our culture, I can’t bring myself to think that they should be expelled. We need to make changes to our immigration laws so those who are not wealthy enough to pay their own way in can still have the chance to enter here legally.

For sure, US immigration needs a huge overhaul. Coming to the USA as a legal immigrant is very difficult and can be very expensive for the average person. I think US immigration is purposely set up to be the way it is. The USA does not want new citizens. It takes years to become a naturalized citizen. I know quite a few people who have had green cards (permanent resident) who never became a naturalized citizen. A supposed route to green card status is through temporary work visas like the H-1B. This is an abusive relationship to be in. You may spend several years living and working in the USA and still not get permanent resident status and end up deported. I remember after the dot-com bubble popped a lot of B2B going on, Back to Bombay. The H-1B techs from India got booted. Yeah, US immigration is a shit show. I know, I have been through it.

Good thing we don't just 'have an open border'. There is NOTHING illegal about fleeing and requesting asylum - Just ask anchor baby, Marco Rubio. People that are being deported now are 'not' necessarily here illegally (although some may be) but are awaiting hearings. They are in the US now and are absolutely entitled to constitutional protections afforded citizens. First and foremost, DUE PROCESS.

 

[lostone]

Thar Republicans such as JD Vance who want to greatly restrict immigration at the same time want to increase the number of babies being born to American women makes a strong case for the conclusion that that their main concern is to keep the US whiter.

 

[TSwizzle]

Sure, if they have come here to escape penalties for criminal acts in their own country and continue to do the same things here – deport them.

Isn't that what is happening now?

In my opinion, you cannot have an open border and just allow 9m+ people into the country over three/four years. That is just reckless. So I am in agreement with the current administration in closing the door to that nonsense.

But if someone is willing to work hard and try to assimilate into our culture, I can’t bring myself to think that they should be expelled. We need to make changes to our immigration laws so those who are not wealthy enough to pay their own way in can still have the chance to enter here legally.

For sure, US immigration needs a huge overhaul. Coming to the USA as a legal immigrant is very difficult and can be very expensive for the average person. I think US immigration is purposely set up to be the way it is. The USA does not want new citizens. It takes years to become a naturalized citizen. I know quite a few people who have had green cards (permanent resident) who never became a naturalized citizen. A supposed route to green card status is through temporary work visas like the H-1B. This is an abusive relationship to be in. You may spend several years living and working in the USA and still not get permanent resident status and end up deported. I remember after the dot-com bubble popped a lot of B2B going on, Back to Bombay. The H-1B techs from India got booted. Yeah, US immigration is a shit show. I know, I have been through it.

Good thing we don't just 'have an open border'. {snip}

It certainly was for a while.

 

[pood]

Sure, if they have come here to escape penalties for criminal acts in their own country and continue to do the same things here – deport them.

Isn't that what is happening now?

In my opinion, you cannot have an open border and just allow 9m+ people into the country over three/four years. That is just reckless. So I am in agreement with the current administration in closing the door to that nonsense.

But if someone is willing to work hard and try to assimilate into our culture, I can’t bring myself to think that they should be expelled. We need to make changes to our immigration laws so those who are not wealthy enough to pay their own way in can still have the chance to enter here legally.

For sure, US immigration needs a huge overhaul. Coming to the USA as a legal immigrant is very difficult and can be very expensive for the average person. I think US immigration is purposely set up to be the way it is. The USA does not want new citizens. It takes years to become a naturalized citizen. I know quite a few people who have had green cards (permanent resident) who never became a naturalized citizen. A supposed route to green card status is through temporary work visas like the H-1B. This is an abusive relationship to be in. You may spend several years living and working in the USA and still not get permanent resident status and end up deported. I remember after the dot-com bubble popped a lot of B2B going on, Back to Bombay. The H-1B techs from India got booted. Yeah, US immigration is a shit show. I know, I have been through it.

Good thing we don't just 'have an open border'. {snip}

It certainly was for a while.

Prove it.

You can’t. You’re wrong.

 

[Bronzeage]

I've given this a minimal amount of thought and come to the conclusion that I don't actually care that undocumented immigrants are in this country. The few I have encountered were nice people. I see them as just one of many groups that are victimized because they are perceived as powerless and easy to exploit.

 

[Politesse]

Arresting people for having incorrect paperwork is not something any "libertarian" should find conscionable. Still less, arresting and deporting people who are following the process, are entirely legal, whose paperwork is filed and make all of their court appointments. If you think there simply should be no way to legally walk across a grassy field from one "country" to another unless you're a millionaire with connections to the White House? Well, then fuck you and the horse you rode in on, because this used to be the land of the free.




And in the specific case of our closest neighbors: the US, Mexico and Canada are supposedly allies. It should be as easy to travel between them as between the Schengen area countries.

 

[Axulus]

We had an open border for the first 100 years of our country. There was no immigration control of any kind. Really not that big of a deal. Make it easy to come in to work. Pass a background check (and pay a small fee for the service), bring your documents from your home country, and you should be allowed in. Allow permanent residency after living here for two years. Before that, any crimes committed and convicted, I'd be ok with deportation. Permanent residents should only be subject to deportation for serious felonies.

After 5 years and a clean record they should be elgible for citizenship. Maybe require a certain amount of public service hours to qualify (volunteering for qualifying public service organizations for 200 hours or something), and passing a civics exam is all fine.

Anyone undocumented here for more than two years should be elgible for legal status with a clean record. Anyone caught entering illegally should be subject to removal. Crack down on any employers hiring undocumented individuals as well. Shouldn't be necessary in any event by making it much easier to come here legally.

It really isn't that complicated.

 

[bilby]

We had an open border for the first 100 years of our country.

Before the Great War, it was highly unusual for an ordinary citizen anywhere in the world to even have a passport; Anyone could cross any border, with a few checks to make sure they weren't smuggling anything in their luggage that they should have paid import duty on.

Passports in that era were carried by diplomats and royalty, to give them an exemption from queues and inspections.

 

[pood]

Moreover, as Gore Vidal noted decades ago, Mexicans crossing the southern border, legally or illegally, are sensibly reoccupying the vast amount of territory that was stolen from them by a war of aggression instigated in the 1840s by President James K. Polk, a war vociferously opposed by then-Representative Abraham Lincoln.

 

[Toni]

Sure, if they have come here to escape penalties for criminal acts in their own country and continue to do the same things here – deport them.

Isn't that what is happening now?

In my opinion, you cannot have an open border and just allow 9m+ people into the country over three/four years. That is just reckless. So I am in agreement with the current administration in closing the door to that nonsense.

But if someone is willing to work hard and try to assimilate into our culture, I can’t bring myself to think that they should be expelled. We need to make changes to our immigration laws so those who are not wealthy enough to pay their own way in can still have the chance to enter here legally.

For sure, US immigration needs a huge overhaul. Coming to the USA as a legal immigrant is very difficult and can be very expensive for the average person. I think US immigration is purposely set up to be the way it is. The USA does not want new citizens. It takes years to become a naturalized citizen. I know quite a few people who have had green cards (permanent resident) who never became a naturalized citizen. A supposed route to green card status is through temporary work visas like the H-1B. This is an abusive relationship to be in. You may spend several years living and working in the USA and still not get permanent resident status and end up deported. I remember after the dot-com bubble popped a lot of B2B going on, Back to Bombay. The H-1B techs from India got booted. Yeah, US immigration is a shit show. I know, I have been through it.

There is no open door policy at the border.

People entering without visas has been a problem for many years, at least since the 79’s and likely before.

Most common ‘undocumented’ aliens? Those who overstay their visas. Elon Musk would be an example

The H1B Visa program IS fraught with problems but so is the entire visa program

 

[Elixir]

Sure, if they have come here to escape penalties for criminal acts in their own country and continue to do the same things here – deport them.

Isn't that what is happening now?

In my opinion, you cannot have an open border and just allow 9m+ people into the country over three/four years. That is just reckless. So I am in agreement with the current administration in closing the door to that nonsense.

But if someone is willing to work hard and try to assimilate into our culture, I can’t bring myself to think that they should be expelled. We need to make changes to our immigration laws so those who are not wealthy enough to pay their own way in can still have the chance to enter here legally.

For sure, US immigration needs a huge overhaul. Coming to the USA as a legal immigrant is very difficult and can be very expensive for the average person. I think US immigration is purposely set up to be the way it is. The USA does not want new citizens. It takes years to become a naturalized citizen. I know quite a few people who have had green cards (permanent resident) who never became a naturalized citizen. A supposed route to green card status is through temporary work visas like the H-1B. This is an abusive relationship to be in. You may spend several years living and working in the USA and still not get permanent resident status and end up deported. I remember after the dot-com bubble popped a lot of B2B going on, Back to Bombay. The H-1B techs from India got booted. Yeah, US immigration is a shit show. I know, I have been through it.

Good thing we don't just 'have an open border'. {snip}

It certainly was for a while.

Prove it.

You can’t. You’re wrong.

Methinks our friend Swiz has never surveyed the border with an eye to crossing it illegally. He would have found it far from “open” even at its most “open”.

Coyotes don’t get away with charging thousands because their victims are rolling in cash and are too lazy (being Mexicans and all) to simply stroll on in by themselves.
Their victims are uniformly desperate and they know it’s not an “open border”.

 

[Toni]

Thar Republicans such as JD Vance who want to greatly restrict immigration at the same time want to increase the number of babies being born to American women makes a strong case for the conclusion that that their main concern is to keep the US whiter.

Which is interesting as JD’s wife is not what everyone would call white— but he assures us he loves her anyway. I