What do you do about rape?

[Bronzeage]

Do you folks think prostitution helps or harms this dynamic? On the one hand it objectifies. On the other it provides an outlet for sexual urges that may otherwise bottle up and explode (no pun intended)

Does masturbation help or harm this dynamic? The physical release is roughly the same, and presumed with less effort, so why would a man go to all the trouble and risk of rape, just for an orgasm?

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Do you folks think prostitution helps or harms this dynamic? On the one hand it objectifies. On the other it provides an outlet for sexual urges that may otherwise bottle up and explode (no pun intended)

Does masturbation help or harm this dynamic? The physical release is roughly the same, and presumed with less effort, so why would a man go to all the trouble and risk of rape, just for an orgasm?

How is that any different than asking why a man would go and try to pick a woman up in a club instead of just masturbating?

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Do you folks think prostitution helps or harms this dynamic? On the one hand it objectifies. On the other it provides an outlet for sexual urges that may otherwise bottle up and explode (no pun intended)

I have not worked through prostitution enough to have a firm belief. My first response is that prostitution in general is not a bad thing, as long as the exploitation can be eliminated. Can it? Possibly by legalization?

It would help it, but I can't see it eliminating it. If you start doing things like taxing and regulating prostitution and having the brothels submit T4s showing how much they paid the women instead of just not paying them and then beating them when they complain, that's going to raise prices. There will always be an underground market for the cheaper options where guys don't mind raping a sex slave, so they don't ask any questions.

It would allow customers to have better tools to distinguish between when they're engaging in consentual sex and when they're raping someone, however. That, along with making the industry orders of magnitude safer for the women involved in it make legalization a strong plus.

 

[Bronzeage]

Do you folks think prostitution helps or harms this dynamic? On the one hand it objectifies. On the other it provides an outlet for sexual urges that may otherwise bottle up and explode (no pun intended)

Does masturbation help or harm this dynamic? The physical release is roughly the same, and presumed with less effort, so why would a man go to all the trouble and risk of rape, just for an orgasm?

How is that any different than asking why a man would go and try to pick a woman up in a club instead of just masturbating?

Ah, there's the rub.

We don't actually know how many men do masturbate instead of going to a club and trying to pick up a woman, but I am inclined to think it is a very large number, when we consider the number of men in clubs, as a percent of the general population.

If rape and related violent attacks on women could be prevented by either buying sex or staying home and greasing the weasel, there would be no relevance to this entire thread.

 

[ksen]

The good thing about masturbating is that your hand doesn't nag you to take out the trash or complain about the yard not being mowed.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

The good thing about masturbating is that your hand doesn't nag you to take out the trash or complain about the yard not being mowed.

Mine does. It also tells me to burn things.

Fortunately, my dog's around to provide a counter-argument against that.

 

[ksen]

 

[Unbeatable]

Really? Just don't rape women or walk them home or something similar: that's all you've got? I mean: thank you all for not being actual rapists but really??

How about stopping assaults when they are going down?

I don't go to parties/concerts/bars/clubs/etc., and in the places where I do go(work, retail stores, doctor's offices, public transportation), I've never seen an assault go down.

You can't shut down 'jokes' about raping a woman? About how much she must like it rough? About how no doesn't really mean no but certainly means yes? Really? THAT is too much effort?

With some "jokes", I can infer from them certain truth-apt claims and respond matter-of-factly about how the claim in question is false/unreasonable (but my ability to do so congruently is declining as my ability to recognize non-literal speech improves). Whether doing so is worthwhile or not in a given situation is another question. But I'm certainly not going to be the guy who complains that a joke is "offensive" or "unacceptable". Even if I didn't find that sort of thing obnoxious, I just can't sincerely raise those sorts of moralistic objections to a joke. My willingness to thought-police other people only goes about as far as opposing falsehoods. If a guy thinks that him getting laid is more important than a woman's preferences, I can't argue against that, as it's not a truth-apt statement. I can only argue against his rationalizations.

 

[The Paul]

I don't go to parties/concerts/bars/clubs/etc., and in the places where I do go(work, retail stores, doctor's offices, public transportation), I've never seen an assault go down.

You can't shut down 'jokes' about raping a woman? About how much she must like it rough? About how no doesn't really mean no but certainly means yes? Really? THAT is too much effort?

With some "jokes", I can infer from them certain truth-apt claims and respond matter-of-factly about how the claim in question is false/unreasonable (but my ability to do so congruently is declining as my ability to recognize non-literal speech improves). Whether doing so is worthwhile or not in a given situation is another question. But I'm certainly not going to be the guy who complains that a joke is "offensive" or "unacceptable". Even if I didn't find that sort of thing obnoxious, I just can't sincerely raise those sorts of moralistic objections to a joke. My willingness to thought-police other people only goes about as far as opposing falsehoods. If a guy thinks that him getting laid is more important than a woman's preferences, I can't argue against that, as it's not a truth-apt statement. I can only argue against his rationalizations.

So basically, you can't speak out against rape culture because bros before hos?

Because if that's the case, I think we've been waiting for you to turn up.

 

[Unbeatable]

One thing that could be done by men to help prevent rape is to not tolerate misogyny, even in mild forms. If you're around your friends and someone makes a sexist joke, it's best to call them out on it.

This might not apply to me, depending upon how literal you're being with the term "friends". I don't really have friends, as I would interpret the term; just coworkers and people who post on the same forums as me. But I'm going to go ahead and raise this point anyway, in the event that I don't get an exemption for being a loner:

But my sense of humor happens to lean heavily towards finding "offensive" jokes funny. The only sincere objection I could raise regarding some of these jokes, like the "not trusting anything that bleeds for 7 days and doesn't die" one, is that they're so cliche that they're no longer funny. OTOH, if someone comes up with a more fresh/clever sexist joke (or repeats one by Jimmy Carr/Anthony Jeselnik/Frankie Boyle, or various of my other favorite comedians), chances are I'll find it funny. I can't sincerely categorically object to a joke on the mere grounds that it can be inferred to support sexism, racism, etc.

The lack of doing so can be interpreted as support for the opinions/thinking of a potential rapist, and it's best to make the statement, whether it really gets through to anyone or not, that those kinds of things are not acceptable and shouldn't be normal.

This is the point where some would deny any meaningful causal relationship between such aspects of culture and rape. What I would say instead is that even if I grant that there is some connection, I ultimately just don't consider any long-term society-level good to be valuable enough to justify me personally acting to stigmatize jokes or boycott products that I enjoy. For me, the time to oppose the ideas of a potential rapist is when those ideas are presented seriously, as something which can actually be argued against (e.g. the ideas of some Seduction Community types). I'll argue against them not because they normalize rapey attitudes, but because they involve fallacies and cognitive distortions.

 

[GenesisNemesis]

I don't go to parties/concerts/bars/clubs/etc., and in the places where I do go(work, retail stores, doctor's offices, public transportation), I've never seen an assault go down.

You can't shut down 'jokes' about raping a woman? About how much she must like it rough? About how no doesn't really mean no but certainly means yes? Really? THAT is too much effort?

With some "jokes", I can infer from them certain truth-apt claims and respond matter-of-factly about how the claim in question is false/unreasonable (but my ability to do so congruently is declining as my ability to recognize non-literal speech improves). Whether doing so is worthwhile or not in a given situation is another question. But I'm certainly not going to be the guy who complains that a joke is "offensive" or "unacceptable". Even if I didn't find that sort of thing obnoxious, I just can't sincerely raise those sorts of moralistic objections to a joke. My willingness to thought-police other people only goes about as far as opposing falsehoods. If a guy thinks that him getting laid is more important than a woman's preferences, I can't argue against that, as it's not a truth-apt statement. I can only argue against his rationalizations.

So basically, you can't speak out against rape culture because bros before hos?

Because if that's the case, I think we've been waiting for you to turn up.

Maybe people just disagree with the importance of speaking out against jokes. It's pretty clear when a joke is intended to be malicious or not. Most of the time rape jokes aren't malicious. If a joke was intended to be malicious, then there would be a reason to call someone out on it.

 

[Unbeatable]

So basically, you can't speak out against rape culture because bros before hos?

I don't know which part of my post you had to misinterpret in order to mistakenly infer a belief on my part that a man has a moral obligation to prioritize his male friends over his female sexual partners, nor do I see how such a silly belief would be sufficient to prevent a man from speaking out against rape culture. "bros before hoes" seems to revolve entirely around the concept of conflicting interpersonal allegiances, whereas my post has nothing to do with interpersonal allegiances at all. It's not just a matter of me not being on the team that you think I'm on; I'm not even involved in the game that that team's playing.

 

[Rhea]

So basically, you can't speak out against rape culture because bros before hos?

I don't know which part of my post you had to misinterpret in order to mistakenly infer a belief on my part that a man has a moral obligation to prioritize his male friends over his female sexual partners, nor do I see how such a silly belief would be sufficient to prevent a man from speaking out against rape culture. "bros before hoes" seems to revolve entirely around the concept of conflicting interpersonal allegiances, whereas my post has nothing to do with interpersonal allegiances at all. It's not just a matter of me not being on the team that you think I'm on; I'm not even involved in the game that that team's playing.

I get what you're saying, and it is a good addition to the discussion because not everyone will hear those jokes and react to them the same way.

 

[Toni]

Really? Just don't rape women or walk them home or something similar: that's all you've got? I mean: thank you all for not being actual rapists but really??

How about stopping assaults when they are going down? I mean: I've done it myself, more than once and I'm not referring to stopping my own. Me, all 5 ft 1.something, something south of 100 lbs often mistaken for a 12 year old me. You know how? Saying STOP. I am sure the glare was pretty intimidating, too. The body language was as intimidating as I could make it, adrenalin helping. But seriously:

You can't shut down 'jokes' about raping a woman? About how much she must like it rough? About how no doesn't really mean no but certainly means yes? Really? THAT is too much effort?

What the fuck is wrong with people? Don't more sober and/or decent individuals of any gender shut down someone who is attempting to take advantage of a more vulnerable person? Even more so if the vulnerable person seems to be uncomfortable or trying to protest or get away? Or is obviously pretty drunk? Really? Crap: it doesn't even need to be particularly confrontational. I can remember being at one of my first parties and the guy who gave me a ride to the party was suddenly trying to stick his tongue down my throat. I was stunned enough that I wasn't sure how to get away and another guy---not my best buddy or a guy I ever dated or who ever wanted to date me saw my distress and simply started talking to aggressive tongue guy about the game and I could recover my composure enough to go find a ride home. Hell, none of us was Jewish but my rescuer and most guys---and girls knew how to be a mensch.

I mean it's not like I'm calling for boycotts of film and television which rely on rape as a plot device rather than actually write for and develop female characters, all the while ignoring the fact that men are also rape victims.

Just: be a mensch.


It's not that hard. Even a woman can do it.

These sorts of things don't happen when I'm around. Take what you will from that.

What I take from that is that you are the sort of person who conveys that you will not tolerate bad behavior. I've always been interested in your posts about mentoring young men who often have not had terrific upbringing or role models. I admire the way that you are willing to challenge them to become better, more responsible people and that you serve as a role model for how to be an adult, period as well as an adult male. It is clear that you hold yourself to high standards and you expect others to hold themselves to such standards as well.

This, btw, is exactly the kind of thing I was thinking with my first post.

 

[Toni]

What I see is a lot of: Hey, it's not my problem and I'm doing my share just by not raping anybody.

Yeah, but there's not a lot of that in this thread so I don't understand all the hostility you are pointing towards us unlucky enough to not have stumbled upon a rape in progress.

Toni may correct me, but the answer is in her post that you quoted.

We all get the joke of "I don't rape anyone." but if it really stops there, after the joke is laughed at, then it's dismissive.

Toni is talking about mending attitudes, and you are focussing on "I haven't ignored any rapes in progress." and pretending that is discussion about the very different aspect she is talking about.

That's not how I saw it. What I saw was guys expressing the attitude she says she wants to see but then tore into us for not actively stopping assaults like she has on multiple times.

Spike is right. I don't believe I 'tore into you' but I did challenge the idea that 'I don't rape people' was an adequate response or adequate attitude. Yes, I am furious that rape and sexual assault and violence against women seems to take a very low priority in the ills that society is willing to address. But mostly, I am furious that (some) people genuinely seem to think that it's just not really their problem. Or that it's fine to just throw up their hands and say "whatcha gonna do?" or "It's too hard."

No, I don't expect people to don capes and masks and to seek out evil doers in dark alleys everywhere. For one thing, few people can carry off both a mask and a cape at the same time. For another, it's really dangerous. Law enforcement knows very well that domestic situations are quite often the most dangerous they will ever deal with. And yeah, I know I was really lucky that people backed down when I went all 'wrath of god' on them.

 

[Toni]

With every new person born is a new potential assailant, so without some kind of fundamental change to global socialization, sexual violence is always going to be a problem.

That's why you can stop *a rape* from happening, but you can't stop *rape*.

Each new person born has the potential for both good and evil, and there is every evidence to suggest that those who are violent tend to be those who have been subjected to violence, or witnessed it in a normalising context.

So there's your butter knife. You live your life in the way you want the world to evolve, and imperceptibly move the dial on what we consider normal. Offer even a fleeting experience of kindness and rationality to children who aren't living in optimal circumstances. It increases their options for future behaviour. Their marginally improved behaviour contributes to your ripple effect.

Of course you can stop rape. You refrain, yourself. You discourage rapists and potential rapists, in the short term. You visualise and work towards the sort of society that is a bit more equal and a little less angry.

What you're saying aligns just fine with my previous post.

In this thread, and in almost every rape thread, I've questioned the assumption that rape is a *social* problem. Ultimately rape occurs for two reasons: 1) half of the human population is men, many unthinking, with hormones that are driving them to want sex at almost all times 2) this dynamic heavily reinforces what people call *rape culture*

So unless somehow we eliminate sex amongst our society (. . . ) or completely reverse the dynamic that our biology creates (. . . ), the mountain won't go away, which is the point I was making originally. I'm not trying to be negative about the situation, I'm redefining what I believe is actually the problem. So .. you can stop *a rape*, like you're saying, not *rape*.

Rape is not about sex. It is not sexually motivated with the possible exception of some statutory rape cases where the ages are not that far apart and maturity is basically on par. Maybe.

Rape is about power and control. Sex is just the means, not the end.


But yes, I think you have a point that we will probably never stop rape, just as we will never stop murder, stealing, assault, etc. But we can work to eliminate these evils. And we can start by stopping victim blaming and shaming.

 

[Toni]

What I am talking about is walking into a room and finding a line of guys waiting to take their turn with my nearly passed out friend who truly had no idea what was going on.

I was in college for five years and I never encountered this situation. I never encountered anything even close to this. The closest situation was this: One time a friend of one of my housemates brought someone to our house to drink with one of my housemates. She ended up passed out in our bathroom, but the guy was passed out on the couch, so he wasn't able to take advantage of her. So, I wasn't tested as to what I would do.

It's not about passing some test. I just threw out that (unfortunately very true) story to say that you don't need to be superman to stop bad behavior.

Not everyone has walked into a room full of guys about to run a train on their friend. Thankfully. But almost all of us see situations where someone is being treated badly, where someone (usually male) is trying to corner another person (usually female), pushing for contact that isn't wanted or deserved. Most women feel uncomfortable when that happens and the first reaction for most is to simply try to placate, to play nice and hope the guy will be satisfied with a smile or whatever or will get bored or will get the hint and move on. In my experience, that does not work. But women are socialized to be nice. And also to be aware that they are smaller and weaker than men and could easily be raped so just playing nice is safer and maybe you can avoid getting hurt or hurt too badly.

What is often very effective is distraction: I wrote about a party where another guy saw my distress when someone was aggressively ramming his tongue down my throat. I was young and my first reaction was shock and disbelief. And embarrassment. I didn't quite know how to escape. The other guy saw my discomfort and simply started asking tongue guy about the big game, distracting him and allowing me to quietly slip away.

Other times, guys say they are the girl's boyfriend, or fiance, or whatever. That is often very effective. Some guys simply cannot believe that a woman can be happily unattached and if she's not attached, she's theirs for the taking. IDGI myself.

Women do run interference for each other, and make sure not to leave a friend alone with a sketchy guy. Guys do misdirect guys who are pursuing women who are clearly not interested.

But face it: a lot of sexual assaults come in context of an established relationship. That's a lot harder. A friend told me that the night before, her husband had raped her. It was not secret that they had a contentious relationship but I would never have expected that. But even less expected was her steadfast refusal to press charges. Or to leave him. That one I still have trouble with. They are still married, about 18 years later. I have a really hard time with that.

 

[ksen]

What I see is a lot of: Hey, it's not my problem and I'm doing my share just by not raping anybody.

Yeah, but there's not a lot of that in this thread so I don't understand all the hostility you are pointing towards us unlucky enough to not have stumbled upon a rape in progress.

Toni may correct me, but the answer is in her post that you quoted.

We all get the joke of "I don't rape anyone." but if it really stops there, after the joke is laughed at, then it's dismissive.

Toni is talking about mending attitudes, and you are focussing on "I haven't ignored any rapes in progress." and pretending that is discussion about the very different aspect she is talking about.

That's not how I saw it. What I saw was guys expressing the attitude she says she wants to see but then tore into us for not actively stopping assaults like she has on multiple times.

Spike is right. I don't believe I 'tore into you' but I did challenge the idea that 'I don't rape people' was an adequate response or adequate attitude. Yes, I am furious that rape and sexual assault and violence against women seems to take a very low priority in the ills that society is willing to address. But mostly, I am furious that (some) people genuinely seem to think that it's just not really their problem. Or that it's fine to just throw up their hands and say "whatcha gonna do?" or "It's too hard."

No, I don't expect people to don capes and masks and to seek out evil doers in dark alleys everywhere. For one thing, few people can carry off both a mask and a cape at the same time. For another, it's really dangerous. Law enforcement knows very well that domestic situations are quite often the most dangerous they will ever deal with. And yeah, I know I was really lucky that people backed down when I went all 'wrath of god' on them.

s'all good. (((toni)))

 

[Bronzeage]

Really? Just don't rape women or walk them home or something similar: that's all you've got? I mean: thank you all for not being actual rapists but really??

How about stopping assaults when they are going down? I mean: I've done it myself, more than once and I'm not referring to stopping my own. Me, all 5 ft 1.something, something south of 100 lbs often mistaken for a 12 year old me. You know how? Saying STOP. I am sure the glare was pretty intimidating, too. The body language was as intimidating as I could make it, adrenalin helping. But seriously:

You can't shut down 'jokes' about raping a woman? About how much she must like it rough? About how no doesn't really mean no but certainly means yes? Really? THAT is too much effort?

What the fuck is wrong with people? Don't more sober and/or decent individuals of any gender shut down someone who is attempting to take advantage of a more vulnerable person? Even more so if the vulnerable person seems to be uncomfortable or trying to protest or get away? Or is obviously pretty drunk? Really? Crap: it doesn't even need to be particularly confrontational. I can remember being at one of my first parties and the guy who gave me a ride to the party was suddenly trying to stick his tongue down my throat. I was stunned enough that I wasn't sure how to get away and another guy---not my best buddy or a guy I ever dated or who ever wanted to date me saw my distress and simply started talking to aggressive tongue guy about the game and I could recover my composure enough to go find a ride home. Hell, none of us was Jewish but my rescuer and most guys---and girls knew how to be a mensch.

I mean it's not like I'm calling for boycotts of film and television which rely on rape as a plot device rather than actually write for and develop female characters, all the while ignoring the fact that men are also rape victims.

Just: be a mensch.


It's not that hard. Even a woman can do it.

These sorts of things don't happen when I'm around. Take what you will from that.

What I take from that is that you are the sort of person who conveys that you will not tolerate bad behavior. I've always been interested in your posts about mentoring young men who often have not had terrific upbringing or role models. I admire the way that you are willing to challenge them to become better, more responsible people and that you serve as a role model for how to be an adult, period as well as an adult male. It is clear that you hold yourself to high standards and you expect others to hold themselves to such standards as well.

This, btw, is exactly the kind of thing I was thinking with my first post.

That's pretty close. I'm the oldest of four and I have two younger sisters. I've always had more of a sheepdog in me, than wolf. Sheepdogs were bred and trained to stand between the sheep and the wolves. The really big ones, Malamutes and the like were bred to fight bears. I'm not really that big, but as you said in your earlier post, body language counts for a lot. The appearance that I am ready to fight, goes a long way. It's been a long time since that kind of thing has really been needed, but I have gone and stood in the door while someone collected her clothes and other stuff, while boyfriend or husband stood outside and waited. The worst I ever got was one guy who said, "I'm going to enjoy kicking your ass." I just looked at him and said, "No. You're not going to like it one bit." He shut up and we left. I appreciate your kind words.

 

[GenesisNemesis]

I'm not the outgoing type of person and I tend to stay inside. I don't really have friends except people I talk to online. I'm introverted. What should I do about rape?