What, exactly, is CRT?

[Elixir]

Well, okay. If CRT is not being taught there’s no reason to oppose laws keeping it out of schools, right? Just status quo.

Right, just like "if there's no massive electoral fraud, then you shouldn't object to making sure there's no electoral fraud!", as racist voter suppression laws are ratified all over the country by freedumb luvvin right wing fascists.
Right wingers love all laws that keep minorities and poor people from doing or saying things, but any time they are asked to refrain from their own despicable behavior or language it's "Oh my freeee-dumb!".
Fucking hypocrites, one and all.

 

[none]

"Gotta break a few eggs to.make an omlete."

 

[Loren Pechtel]

We don't need to live in a world where every piece of art is something that agrees with our own personal ideology. I'd argue that a world like that is deeply dysfunctional and broken.

Me personally, monarchy, royalty and aristocracy is deeply offensive. I work right next to the Danish royal palace. I ride my little bike through the palace grounds on the way to work each morning. I think it's pretty. I'm fully capable or holding two thoughts in my brain at the same time.

I do think controversial art is a good thing. However, the issue with the statues is that they were deliberate symbols of oppression, not art.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

This was for 2019-2020. 2012 was simply the comparison year.

As long as we are going to confuse correlation with causation, I say it is the result of the Trump Presidency. After all, we know that occurred while there is no little evidence that CRT was taught, let alone widely spread, in the schools.

Well, okay. If CRT is not being taught there’s no reason to oppose laws keeping it out of schools, right? Just status quo.

The problem is the anti-CRT laws aren't actually just anti-CRT, they paint with far too broad a brush.

 

[Politesse]

I would also have a problem with "just" banning CRT. Just because I wasn't planning to present quantum mechanics to a room of second graders doesn't mean I think it would be a good thing to make the teaching of quantum mechanics illegal. Not the same thing at all.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Are you saying that in Europe there are statues of Hitler, Goring, Himmler, Eichmann, and etc. are allowed to stand and be revered on public grounds in Europe? Because that is what you want to happen in the USA. The people those racists decided to revere with statues on display on public grounds are exactly analogous to Nazi leaders being revered in the same manner in Europe. It says to everyone who is not racist that "You may have won the war a century and a half ago, but we are winning the battles that matter now."

Yes, pretty much. Not exactly those

So, your answer should be no, then. Figure out why there are no statues venerating prominent Nazis in Europe, and you will also know why there should be no statues venerating Confederate leaders in the US.

I told you. Hitler is scapegoat. We have made a tacit agreement that as long as there are no statues of Hitler then we're all good. We have made Hitler into "the devil". This is dangerous. Because Hitler isn't unique, nor especially evil. London is full of colonial rulers who collectively have a lot more blood on their hands than Hitler.

Why are we not removing those?

Any Medeival King is about on par with Hitler. Why do we keep those statues?

Its our history. By hiding and removing it we are living a, lie.

There are no Nazi statues in Europe. But we still have plenty of Nazis. Wonder why? If removing the statues magically removes what they represent we shouldn't have.

Creating a world where nobody is ever offended is a dangerous world.

I think you are just wrong. You act as if what you are saying is obvious. I disagree

The concentration camps are still there. We didn't remove them. I wonder why? Do you think it's to promote Nazism?

 

[ZiprHead]

This is why CRT is a thing.

After white students displayed Confederate flag at school, Black students suspended for planning protest

 

[ZiprHead]

While parents are attacking CRT at school board meetings because it might make their kids "ashamed" of their whiteness...

A slavery petition was the latest racist incident at this school. Parents and lawmakers are fed up

Kansas City (CNN) Nearly two weeks after a racist petition to bring back slavery circulated at her daughter's school, Julie Stutterheim is still angry.

She says it was yet another example of a racist incident at Park Hill South High School in the suburbs of Kansas City, Missouri.

"She was very upset about it. My daughter's Ethiopian," Stutterheim told CNN this week.

Her daughter has encountered racism firsthand, Stutterheim says and "the more she talked about this, the more upset she got."
Stutterheim did what any concerned parent would do and reached out to the school to find out what happened.

What she found was that an increasingly familiar scenario was unfolding at her child's school. Across the US, there are two diametrically opposed conversations about race going on at the same time. In one, some White parents are telling school leaders that lessons about race make White students feel bad. And in the other, there's the racism that is actually happening in schools.

Here's something that I reacted to. "my daughter is Ethiopian". WTF does she think the Ethiopian kingdom did to make money back in the day? It was sending tribal Bantu captives as slaves to Rome, the Ottoman kingdom and used them as labour in their plantations.

Hey, lady your daughter is just as fucking historically tainted by slavery as white people. Her playing the victim card here is amazingly insensitive to all the victims of slavery. Back the fuck off.

Strange to see you advocating collective guilt.

Also... I see this petition is obviously just teen edge-lording. Lame attempts at shock value humour. Obviously slavery is not coming back. While one might not think it's funny. It's pretty transparent what this is. It reminds me of when I went to school and somebody had slipped leaflets for the neo-Nazi party into the lockers of every student. I'm pretty sure none of the students was a neo-nazi. Just stupid shock value nonsense.

It also reminds me of this joke.

https://www.newyorker.com/humor/bor...rs-to-restore-british-rule-over-united-states

Since you do not reside in the United States, I'll let your ignorance of US racial tensions slide.

 

[DrZoidberg]

My understanding is that most of those monuments were originally built after the civil war.

Yes. For racist reasons. My understanding is that they were mostly built in the 1930'ies and crowdsourced through the KKK.

In most of Europe there was the Holocaust remembrance day yesterday. It's always good to remind ourselves that the Nazis and Germans aren't uniquely evil. This kind of evil can emerge anywhere. Normal people can do monstrous things given the right (or wrong) circumstances. These kinds of monuments remind us of that.

If we hide the dirt of our ancestors we risk repeating their mistakes.

I think it's probably worth reconsidering your view here. It's certainly good to remember that the Nazis weren't uniquely evil... but I think it's a bad idea to extend the behavior of a non-unaminous group during a relatively short period of history onto all people of the same nationality and ancestry.

All white Americans in the South weren't pro slavery either

 

[KeepTalking]

So, your answer should be no, then. Figure out why there are no statues venerating prominent Nazis in Europe, and you will also know why there should be no statues venerating Confederate leaders in the US.

I told you. Hitler is scapegoat. We have made a tacit agreement that as long as there are no statues of Hitler then we're all good.

No, that is not why there are no statues of prominent Nazis in Europe, and there is no agreement that just because there are no statues of Hitler we are all good. We are very much not all good, but at least the powers that be in Europe understand that he should not be venerated on public grounds because doing so promotes his ideology.

We have made Hitler into "the devil". This is dangerous. Because Hitler isn't unique, nor especially evil. London is full of colonial rulers who collectively have a lot more blood on their hands than Hitler.

Why are we not removing those?

Who is we? Do you live in London? What was their ideology? Did they do something for the people of London that is worthy of venerating? Why are you bringing collective guilt into this? If you live in London, and feel this strongly about not venerating those rulers with statues on public grounds, then I encourage you to organize a way to remove them to a more appropriate venue.

Any Medeival King is about on par with Hitler. Why do we keep those statues?

Any medieval King? No, not quite.

Its our history. By hiding and removing it we are living a, lie.

No one who is advocating that statues venerating Confederate leaders be removed is advocating that we hide our history. In fact, it is those who want to keep the statues who are trying to hide history, by turning those venerated into heroes, rewriting history to claim they were fighting for something other than to keep people enslaved, and are also now passing laws that both sides the fucking holocaust in our schools.

There are no Nazi statues in Europe. But we still have plenty of Nazis. Wonder why? If removing the statues magically removes what they represent we shouldn't have.

I never said that removing statues magically does anything. It very clearly removes the perception that the State is endorsing their ideology, and there is nothing magical about that.

Creating a world where nobody is ever offended is a dangerous world.

Creating a world where we appease offensive racists by venerating their leaders with statues on public grounds is a dangerous world. One in which the targets of their hate are lynched, oppressed, and/or treated as second class citizens.

I think you are just wrong. You act as if what you are saying is obvious. I disagree

I feel that what I am saying should be obvious, but I will note that you act the same way. I disagree with you as well.

The concentration camps are still there. We didn't remove them. I wonder why? Do you think it's to promote Nazism?

The concentration camps were not erected to venerate the Nazis, they were left as a reminder of the atrocities committed by the Nazis. They have been turned into places where the horrendous ideology that they represent can be critically examined and learned from. There is a qualitative difference.

We are not advocating that tasteful markers on Civil War battlefields that teach the history of what happened there be removed. We are only asking that Confederate leaders not be venerated with statues on public grounds. I do not have a problem with them being removed to museums where they can be placed in the context in which they belong, and those viewing them can learn about the horrendous ideology that they truly represent.

 

[Elixir]

London is full of colonial rulers who collectively have a lot more blood on their hands than Hitler.

WUT? Which among them murdered over 6 million civilians in less than a decade, in their attempt to rule the world?

Any Medeival King is about on par with Hitler.

You are delusional. Name ONE.

 

[Jarhyn]

London is full of colonial rulers who collectively have a lot more blood on their hands than Hitler.

WUT? Which among them murdered over 6 million civilians in less than a decade, in their attempt to rule the world?

Any Medeival King is about on par with Hitler.

You are delusional. Name ONE.

So, two things, one way in which he is right and one in which he is wrong:

Name one awful racist despot throughout history, of any of the genocides, of any of those who wanted to "conquer the world" that would not, given the level of sophistication available in the last great war and the availability of victims, have murdered or enslaved so many?

I don't think Hitler was special, except in what means he had available to him.

Xi is doing as bad just this moment, and are contained by the undeniable reality that to break the equilibrium would be to kill us all. We are only at peace because of the standoff, and genocide continues well and alive in this world.

He is wrong insofar as he thinks they have "more". Any one despotic genocidal piece of shit is 'on par' with any other on average.

"Conquering the world" is a favored human passtime from Alexander the Great, to Napoleon to, yes, Hitler. The intersection of conquer + genocide is just coincidental and it's not the first time.

These days people figure it would be impossible without also breaking it. Eventually there will be someone who won't care about that.

The form of his comparison is wrong in the first, and right with regards to the latter.

 

[Politesse]

It seems like a bizarre diversion to me to ask whether Hitler was uniquely evil. I don't think we should set up shrines to honor evil people in the first place, whether or not they happen to be Hitler, and whether or not you feel that is the case, it has no bearing on whether censorship of academic theories in the schools is a wise idea. It is a bizarre, bizarre worldview, in my opinion, that leads one to believe that one should never tear down statues in public parks lest history be "erased", but that it's fine to censor actual history teachers in history classrooms.

 

[Jarhyn]

It seems like a bizarre diversion to me to ask whether Hitler was uniquely evil. I don't think we should set up shrines to honor evil people in the first place, whether or not they happen to be Hitler, and whether or not you feel that is the case, it has no bearing on whether censorship of academic theories in the schools is a wise idea. It is a bizarre, bizarre worldview, in my opinion, that leads one to believe that one should never tear down statues in public parks lest history be "erased", but that it's fine to censor actual history teachers in history classrooms.

Also a perfectly valid point: why should we accept evil? If evil can organize for the sake of stomping on a human face, forever, why cannot the rest of us say NO!?

This is the purpose of and need for museums, and history classes. We should teach what happened, and about, not from the propaganda of any time but from historical record as exists.

Certain things are wired into the human psyche, and certain things we ourselves put there on purpose through story and song. Effigies, I would think, are one of them. They of their form in prominent places are testaments of honor. The fact of their placement, before and after the statue comes down, acts as a good footnote in a book.

 

[Angra Mainyu]

This is why CRT is a thing.

After white students displayed Confederate flag at school, Black students suspended for planning protest

Some White people are racist and display their racism, and in response, a lot of people push a number of unwarranted false ideologies by the name "CRT", some of which are also racist - with a different target.

You're missing reasons in the "why", like the irrational commitment to some ideology of those pushing the ideologies in question.

And then notice that thehill and several other outlets report the events with capitalized "Black" and "Hispanic" but not "white", which makes me doubt the accuracy of the reports due to bias (of course, it might be that they are just doing what they need in order to avoid condemnation all across social media, but that too casts doubts on the accuracy of the reports),

 

[ZiprHead]

This is why CRT is a thing.

After white students displayed Confederate flag at school, Black students suspended for planning protest

Some White people are racist and display their racism, and in response, a lot of people push a number of unwarranted false ideologies by the name "CRT", some of which are also racist - with a different target.

You're missing reasons in the "why", like the irrational commitment to some ideology of those pushing the ideologies in question.

And then notice that thehill and several other outlets report the events with capitalized "Black" and "Hispanic" but not "white", which makes me doubt the accuracy of the reports due to bias (of course, it might be that they are just doing what they need in order to avoid condemnation all across social media, but that too casts doubts on the accuracy of the reports),

I don't understand your world salad but you were just presented a case of institutional racism, the very thing CRT teaches about.

 

[Angra Mainyu]

This is why CRT is a thing.

After white students displayed Confederate flag at school, Black students suspended for planning protest

Some White people are racist and display their racism, and in response, a lot of people push a number of unwarranted false ideologies by the name "CRT", some of which are also racist - with a different target.

You're missing reasons in the "why", like the irrational commitment to some ideology of those pushing the ideologies in question.

And then notice that thehill and several other outlets report the events with capitalized "Black" and "Hispanic" but not "white", which makes me doubt the accuracy of the reports due to bias (of course, it might be that they are just doing what they need in order to avoid condemnation all across social media, but that too casts doubts on the accuracy of the reports),

I don't understand your world salad but you were just presented a case of institutional racism, the very thing CRT teaches about.

1. There is no word salad.
2. The point I'm making is that the versions of CRT explained by CRTists in this thread, were debunked. Other versions are debunked as well (pick your version and I'll debunk it). So, even if it teaches about institutional racism and there is institutional racism, it is still debunked. For example, Catholicism teaches about immoral behavior. There is immoral behavior. But Catholicism is still debunked - among other things, because it has the wrong teachings about immoral behavior.
3. Assuming that the accounts of the events claimed by biased parties are accurate, then that seems to be a clear-cut case of just plain old anti-Black racism. Sure, anti-Black racism exists and it is a problem. But there is no need for invoking "institutional racism". In fact, it is not even clear that there is also institutional racism in this case. What definition of "institutional racism" are you going by?
4. Even if you have a coherent and useful definition of "institutional racism" that applies to this case, that would not justify CRT. It's still unwarranted and false, even if it makes some true claims, like say Catholicism makes the true claim that there is such thing as immoral behavior, but Catholicism is still unwarranted and false.

 

[laughing dog]

I don't understand your world salad but you were just presented a case of institutional racism, the very thing CRT teaches about.

1. There is no word salad.
2. The point I'm making is that the versions of CRT explained by CRTists in this thread, were debunked. Other versions are debunked as well (pick your version and I'll debunk it). So, even if it teaches about institutional racism and there is institutional racism, it is still debunked. For example, Catholicism teaches about immoral behavior. There is immoral behavior. But Catholicism is still debunked - among other things, because it has the wrong teachings about immoral behavior.
3. Assuming that the accounts of the events claimed by biased parties are accurate, then that seems to be a clear-cut case of just plain old anti-Black racism. Sure, anti-Black racism exists and it is a problem. But there is no need for invoking "institutional racism". In fact, it is not even clear that there is also institutional racism in this case. What definition of "institutional racism" are you going by?
4. Even if you have a coherent and useful definition of "institutional racism" that applies to this case, that would not justify CRT. It's still unwarranted and false, even if it makes some true claims, like say Catholicism makes the true claim that there is such thing as immoral behavior, but Catholicism is still unwarranted and false.

Your word salad response indicates you are mistaken. No one has debunked "CRT" because there is no one version of CRT.

 

[Angra Mainyu]

I don't understand your world salad but you were just presented a case of institutional racism, the very thing CRT teaches about.

1. There is no word salad.
2. The point I'm making is that the versions of CRT explained by CRTists in this thread, were debunked. Other versions are debunked as well (pick your version and I'll debunk it). So, even if it teaches about institutional racism and there is institutional racism, it is still debunked. For example, Catholicism teaches about immoral behavior. There is immoral behavior. But Catholicism is still debunked - among other things, because it has the wrong teachings about immoral behavior.
3. Assuming that the accounts of the events claimed by biased parties are accurate, then that seems to be a clear-cut case of just plain old anti-Black racism. Sure, anti-Black racism exists and it is a problem. But there is no need for invoking "institutional racism". In fact, it is not even clear that there is also institutional racism in this case. What definition of "institutional racism" are you going by?
4. Even if you have a coherent and useful definition of "institutional racism" that applies to this case, that would not justify CRT. It's still unwarranted and false, even if it makes some true claims, like say Catholicism makes the true claim that there is such thing as immoral behavior, but Catholicism is still unwarranted and false.

Your word salad response indicates you are mistaken. No one has debunked "CRT" because there is no one version of CRT.

Actually, some of us have debunked the versions of CRT explained here in enough detail to have a target to debunk. If you would like to propose another version, please define it or post a link, and I'll deal with it.

 

[laughing dog]

Your word salad response indicates you are mistaken. No one has debunked "CRT" because there is no one version of CRT.

Actually, some of us have debunked the versions of CRT explained here in enough detail to have a target to debunk. If you would like to propose another version, please define it or post a link, and I'll deal with it.

I understand you belief that some of you have debunked versions of CRT. I understand that your belief that something occurred does not make it so. I also understand from your posting history, that reason will not dissuade you from your ideological beliefs.