What will be the October Surprise?

[Toni]

But if you genuinely voted for either Mitt Romney or Jill Stein because, in your opinion, they were the best candidates, then I cannot justify spending more time discussing the pros and cons of voting third party in close election situations.

No other reasonable case can be made, as far as Romney is concerned. Are you going to look me dead in the eye and tell me that you think his principal competitor at that point, Rick Santorum, would have built a better America in which to live?

Of course not. But why vote in the GOP primary?

 

[Politesse]

But if you genuinely voted for either Mitt Romney or Jill Stein because, in your opinion, they were the best candidates, then I cannot justify spending more time discussing the pros and cons of voting third party in close election situations.

No other reasonable case can be made, as far as Romney is concerned. Are you going to look me dead in the eye and tell me that you think his principal competitor at that point, Rick Santorum, would have built a better America in which to live?

Of course not. But why vote in the GOP primary?

Stakes were higher. Obama was running uncontested, so I saw no reason to request a Democratic ballot. I voted in the Republican race because I saw the likes of Rick Perry and Santorum as more of an existential threat than their competition. Romney is not a great human being either, but I trusted him to be at least a politician in temperament, not a blind ideologue for what was destined to become Trumpism. Time has shown that I was correct in my assessment, I think.

 

[Politesse]

Why vote for someone who cannot possibly win? Why does that make you feel better or more true to yourself?

Because it's my vote.

And "because they're winning" is not the only reason to vote (or not vote) for a candidate.

I agree. But my point was that everyone’s vote does count and it does say something. In close elections, voting for candidates who cannot possibly win usually or in my experience, has always resulted in the worst candidate being elected.

Which is why I don’t do that any more.

Sure. I mean, maybe. But I've never voted in a close presidential race, so that is a bit irrelevant to my situation. And I would still want to know the particulars of the situation before making my mind up about a particular election.

 

[Politesse]

No, you are relying on the supposition that enough voters will save California

Incidentally, Obama did not by any stretch of the imagination "save California". In many ways, his policies were injurious to the state. Well, a mixed bag. But hardly our "salvation", especially if you were unfortunate enough to be born Mexican. I look back fondly on those years, but I honestly think that had more to do with his speeches than his policies. He had a way of inspiring people to be either the best or the worst versions of themselves. I was fortunate enough to be surrounded by a lot of good people.

People expect too much from the White House. No superman is going to whoosh in and rescue us from all the dilemmas we're too lazy or disengaged to solve for ourselves.

 

[Toni]

No, you are relying on the supposition that enough voters will save California

Incidentally, Obama did not by any stretch of the imagination "save California". In many ways, his policies were injurious to the state. Well, a mixed bag. But hardly our "salvation", especially if you were unfortunate enough to be born Mexican. I look back fondly on those years, but I honestly think that had more to do with his speeches than his policies. He had a way of inspiring people to be either the best or the worst versions of themselves. I was fortunate enough to be surrounded by a lot of good people.

People expect too much from the White House. No superman is going to whoosh in and rescue us from all the dilemmas we're too lazy or disengaged to solve for ourselves.

I am not in California but I absolutely believe your take. And I agree with your assessment of Obama in general. I will also say that my belief is that he was constrained to a more middle of the road presidency simply by the fact that he was the first black president.

 

[Toni]

But if you genuinely voted for either Mitt Romney or Jill Stein because, in your opinion, they were the best candidates, then I cannot justify spending more time discussing the pros and cons of voting third party in close election situations.

No other reasonable case can be made, as far as Romney is concerned. Are you going to look me dead in the eye and tell me that you think his principal competitor at that point, Rick Santorum, would have built a better America in which to live?

Of course not. But why vote in the GOP primary?

Stakes were higher. Obama was running uncontested, so I saw no reason to request a Democratic ballot. I voted in the Republican race because I saw the likes of Rick Perry and Santorum as more of an existential threat than their competition. Romney is not a great human being either, but I trusted him to be at least a politician in temperament, not a blind ideologue for what was destined to become Trumpism. Time has shown that I was correct in my assessment, I think.

I see your point but I put less faith in Romney’s ‘decency’ than you do. Impure, he’s ‘decent’ if compared to Santorum or Perry.

I voted in the Dem to add my voice in supporting Obama because there was no GOP candidate that I could have possibly supported by any contortion of my imagination. Sure, if for POTUS, I had to choose between Romney and Santorum or Perry, it would have been Romney but that dud t happen and they were all GOP so….

But I don’t think all the waters in the world could make me feel clean again.

 

[bilby]

No, you are relying on the supposition that enough voters will save California

Incidentally, Obama did not by any stretch of the imagination "save California". In many ways, his policies were injurious to the state. Well, a mixed bag. But hardly our "salvation", especially if you were unfortunate enough to be born Mexican. I look back fondly on those years, but I honestly think that had more to do with his speeches than his policies. He had a way of inspiring people to be either the best or the worst versions of themselves. I was fortunate enough to be surrounded by a lot of good people.

People expect too much from the White House. No superman is going to whoosh in and rescue us from all the dilemmas we're too lazy or disengaged to solve for ourselves.

I am not in California but I absolutely believe your take. And I agree with your assessment of Obama in general. I will also say that my belief is that he was constrained to a more middle of the road presidency simply by the fact that he was the first black president.

Yeah, if he had espoused an even slightly more radical agenda, the right wing would have gone batshit crazy, and likely have elected a rabidly partizan bunch of loons to the House, the Senate, the various state legislatures (particularly in the red states) and maybe even the Presidency itself.

So it's fortunate that he...

...oh, wait.


Shit.

 

[Toni]

No, you are relying on the supposition that enough voters will save California

Incidentally, Obama did not by any stretch of the imagination "save California". In many ways, his policies were injurious to the state. Well, a mixed bag. But hardly our "salvation", especially if you were unfortunate enough to be born Mexican. I look back fondly on those years, but I honestly think that had more to do with his speeches than his policies. He had a way of inspiring people to be either the best or the worst versions of themselves. I was fortunate enough to be surrounded by a lot of good people.

People expect too much from the White House. No superman is going to whoosh in and rescue us from all the dilemmas we're too lazy or disengaged to solve for ourselves.

I am not in California but I absolutely believe your take. And I agree with your assessment of Obama in general. I will also say that my belief is that he was constrained to a more middle of the road presidency simply by the fact that he was the first black president.

Yeah, if he had espoused an even slightly more radical agenda, the right wing would have gone batshit crazy, and likely have elected a rabidly partizan bunch of loons to the House, the Senate, the various state legislatures (particularly in the red states) and maybe even the Presidency itself.

So it's fortunate that he...

...oh, wait.


Shit.

Yep.

 

[GenesisNemesis]

Why vote for someone who cannot possibly win? Why does that make you feel better or more true to yourself?

Because it's my vote.

And "because they're winning" is not the only reason to vote (or not vote) for a candidate.

I agree. But my point was that everyone’s vote does count and it does say something. In close elections, voting for candidates who cannot possibly win usually or in my experience, has always resulted in the worst candidate being elected.

Which is why I don’t do that any more.

As I like to think of it, if your vote is counted, yeah it counts. But some votes count towards a bad outcome. And doing a "protest vote" is literally practically doing nothing whatsoever to stop Trump, and we know one way we can stop Trump, by not letting him in office. Which means protest votes aren't viable, because third party candidates aren't popular. And if you want them to be popular you need to convince people why they should be popular, and if you haven't done that, you're shit out of luck and that's your problem.

 

[Politesse]

As a justification for voting, "because they are popular" is not much different than "because they are winning", and no more convincing. It's funny that you're lecturing me on maturity, while instructing me to turn off my brain and vote for whoever happens to be top dog today.




It's also funny because both candidates in this race had approval ratings in the gutter for their entire tenure in the role. Popularity is not what's driving people to vote for them.

 

[Elixir]

As a justification for voting, "because they are popular" is not much different than "because they are winning", and no more convincing. It's funny that you're lecturing me on maturity, while instructing me to turn off my brain and vote for whoever happens to be top dog today.




It's also funny because both candidates in this race have approval ratings in the gutter for theor entire tenures in the role. Popularity is not what's driving people to vote for them.

You’re in CA? Go ahead and vote however you feel like voting.
I’d vote for Biden if I was still there. Not to make sure he won but for to add one more to his popular vote total vs Trump. Just my tiny contribution to the appearance of a mandate, or the appearance of dissent should Trump win or steal the WH after losing the pop vote.

 

[scombrid]

No, you are relying on the supposition that enough voters will save California

Incidentally, Obama did not by any stretch of the imagination "save California". In many ways, his policies were injurious to the state. Well, a mixed bag. But hardly our "salvation", especially if you were unfortunate enough to be born Mexican. I look back fondly on those years, but I honestly think that had more to do with his speeches than his policies. He had a way of inspiring people to be either the best or the worst versions of themselves. I was fortunate enough to be surrounded by a lot of good people.

People expect too much from the White House. No superman is going to whoosh in and rescue us from all the dilemmas we're too lazy or disengaged to solve for ourselves.

Obama was the most temperate and thoughtful president of my life time. His policy goals were great well beyond his speeches. He was up against the machine and he knew it. He did the best possible job. Republicans were just out to break shit so the corporations that run them could have more freedom to shit negative externalities all over the commons while paying no taxes. Then within his own party he was never getting anything through that pissed off the corporations that own Pelosi and that owned Lieberman. That rat fucker Lieberman and the rest of his insurance industry backers were never going to let a decent health care plan through.

Indeed no president is ever going to come in and fix things unilaterally. Obama sure as hell wasn’t closing GTMO unless he wanted to ensure a Republican super majority in the subsequent election.

But a bad one can really fick things up when they are fully backed by an entire party and their super wealthy multinational corporate controllers.

I’m also trying to wrap my head around voting against Obama because bloodthirsty xenophobia.

 

[scombrid]

You know the humanitarian abolitionists meant nothing back in the day. The north only got behind the idea because they didn’t want the south to industrialize with slave labor. If they were going to have to start paying their textile workers something they were terrified that the south would start processing its own cotton. Sometimes the right thing only happens when it is in the economic interest of the people that have all the marbles.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Why vote for someone who cannot possibly win? Why does that make you feel better or more true to yourself?

Because it's my vote.

And "because they're winning" is not the only reason to vote (or not vote) for a candidate.

I agree. But my point was that everyone’s vote does count and it does say something. In close elections, voting for candidates who cannot possibly win usually or in my experience, has always resulted in the worst candidate being elected.

Which is why I don’t do that any more.

So did you vote for the winner in every election since that one time you were traumatized by voting third party many years ago?

Bush in 2000 and 2004
Obama in 2008 and 2012
Trump in 2016
Biden in 2020

 

[ZiprHead]

I take it you are bad at math. There is no possible in which my votes for first Mitt Romney and then Jill Stein

You voted for Jill Stein???

 

[ZiprHead]

If your choice cannot change the outcome in any way, why not vote as you choose? It's your vote, not anyone else's.

Because vote totals show support for the candidates agenda.

 

[Politesse]

If your choice cannot change the outcome in any way, why not vote as you choose? It's your vote, not anyone else's.

Because vote totals show support for the candidates agenda.

Yes. So I'm not going to vote for someone whose agenda I do not support. It's really not that complicated.

 

[Politesse]

I’m also trying to wrap my head around voting against Obama because bloodthirsty xenophobia.

Then you're forgetting some very important things about Obama's first term. Just because someone speaks well does not mean they are always well-intentioned. I despise the Patriot Act and everything it has done to our country and society. I despise American interventionism abroad, and how quick we are to shed blood overseas in other people's countries while demanding the pity of the world for attacks on our soil. I despise that we treat immigrants as criminals, torturing and then "losing" them, even if they're children. I hate when the Left pretends to give a shit about someone, but abandons the project the second it becomes difficult or demands any sacrifice on the part of the middle class. I hate drone assassinations with no oversight. I hate when the military lies about how many people it is killing, or pretends it doesn't know. I hate campaign promises that would truly benefit the country, but whose promiser never had any real intention of fulfilling. And when we lie to allies overseas, promising them safety and a better life if they fight for us, then treat them like inhuman scum if any refugees actually make it out alive long enough to plead asylum at our gates. Instead if the brave heroes they really are, doing the work Americans are too lazy, fearful, or stupid to accomplish in the wars we start, we pretend to have trouble distinguishing them from terrorists and turn them away or accept them as second class citizens.

There are things I love about this country also. Our ingenuity. Our creativity. Our diversity. Our culture of general tolerance and forebearance. The overwhelming beauty of our natural landscapes, and the novel scale of our commitment to protecting them. Academic freedom. The freedom of our press. The internet.

But not our corrupt leadership, or the companies that give our leaders their matching orders.

 

[Derec]

Stakes were higher. Obama was running uncontested, so I saw no reason to request a Democratic ballot.

Exactly. If you happen to live in an open primary state, there is no reason not to vote strategically.
This year, I did not bother to vote in the presidential primaries at all, since both were foregone conclusions.

Romney is not a great human being either, but I trusted him to be at least a politician in temperament, not a blind ideologue for what was destined to become Trumpism. Time has shown that I was correct in my assessment, I think.

Plus, he was prescient about the threat of Russia.

 

[Derec]

I will also say that my belief is that he was constrained to a more middle of the road presidency simply by the fact that he was the first black president.

I disagree. He was far younger and thus less susceptible to getting dragged to the Left, like Biden was King Theoden-style. The far left was not yet as strong during his presidency. And more middle of the road is what we need, not extremes to the left or right.

That said, Obama did move to the left toward the end of his presidency, by for example blocking DAPL to appease the far leftists in his party.