What will be the October Surprise?

[ZiprHead]

Here's the problem: we've been able to do this for 30 years now and conservatives have fought this progress tooth and nail. Remember the Pontiac EV1? It first hit the road in 1996. While it was an ugly little thing, the viability of the technology has been around for a long time.

Minor nit pick. It was the General Motors EV1, not Pontiac.

And many of the earliest automobiles were electric.

 

[Toni]

If your vote doesn't matter, then why vote?

Because it is my right, my privilege, and my responsibility to do so. And because voting is extremely important. Single-handedly deciding the next president just isn't the reason why it is important. I was fortunate enough to visit the Lincoln Memorial today, as it happens, among my favorite of this nation's temples to reason and empathy. So I will simply quote that man in saying: we vote so that "that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth." We only have a democracy insofar as people participate in the franchise that makes it democratic.

You are absolutely correct in all points. The Lincoln Memorial is perhaps my favorite, as well and Lincoln probably the President I find most inspirational, flawed though he was.

You absolutely do have a right to vote as you choose, regardless of whether I think it is wise or not.

Normally I would never, ever comment on anyone else’s choice at the ballot box. I just find Trump too great a threat to make any assumptions about the difference one person’s vote might or might not make. But frankly, horror and terror at the thought of another Trump or frankly another GOP presidency are pretty overwhelming.

My apologies.

 

[bilby]

As far as leftists go, I'd say you're correct when it comes to nuclear power. However, the portrayal of back-to-nature hippies holding back progress is inaccurate.

Given that nuclear power is the ONLY practicable path to progress, I would say you just contradicted yourself.

Solar panels and electric vehicles are a distraction; At BEST they can solve maybe a quarter of the problem, while making it even harder to persuade people to do something useful and effective about the bulk of the problem.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Not a fan of Trump in the least.

Funny how you keep having to repeat that.
It’s almost as if the rest of your postings are counter-indications to that statement.

That's because you think everyone who doesn't love Biden must love Trump instead.

In practical terms, for the purposes of the upcoming 2024 elections that is exactly what it means. Or at least that you are willing to tolerate another Trump term (perhaps for life) along with others of similar ilk who appear on the ballot in every state in positions from very local to state to national offices.

Aside from the fact that it doesn't mean that, Elixir thinks that people who will "hold their nose while voting for Trump because they think Biden is worse" actually love Trump and everything about him. Not "lesser of two evils" but "love and adore him".

Yeah, you can recognize there are some people out there who think Trump is bad but will vote for him anyway. Not everyone is as enlightened as you.

 

[Elixir]

Given that nuclear power is the ONLY practicable path to progress, I would say you just contradicted yourself.

Nah. I was exactly that back to nature hippie ca 1967-9 but it was really just about good food and other ingestibles, and I was DEFINITELY NOT anti nuke. In fact nuclear energy was already the obvious means of “getting back to nature” while avoiding the discomforts endured by our forebears.

I still hold to most of what I believed then despite all the intervening events.

 

[Colonel Sanders]

As far as leftists go, I'd say you're correct when it comes to nuclear power. However, the portrayal of back-to-nature hippies holding back progress is inaccurate.

Given that nuclear power is the ONLY practicable path to progress, I would say you just contradicted yourself.

Solar panels and electric vehicles are a distraction; At BEST they can solve maybe a quarter of the problem, while making it even harder to persuade people to do something useful and effective about the bulk of the problem.

I support nuclear power. And I agree that it was leftists that all but killed it off after Three Mile Island. As far as it being the "ONLY" practical path to progress, I disagree. It's an important component, but not the only one.

Also, I didn't intend to make an exhaustive list of alternatives to fossil fuel. I just used the two most well known examples.

 

[Derec]

Aside from the fact that it doesn't mean that, Elixir thinks that people who will "hold their nose while voting for Trump because they think Biden is worse" actually love Trump and everything about him. Not "lesser of two evils" but "love and adore him".

No, it's actually worse than that. Elixir seems to think that people who will "hold their nose while voting for Biden because they think Trump is worse" actually love Trump and everything about him just because they dare criticize Biden and other Democrats and because they do not spend their time posting about how horrible Trump is in every single thread.

 

[Colonel Sanders]

That is generally because you discuss your distaste with the more prominent now far left wing of the Democrat party than Trump.

That is because Trump has hardly any supporters on here. The left-wing of the Democratic Party has many.
This is a discussion forum, not a ditto circle.

Do you expect to find charismatic Evangelicals, fascists, or even legitimate political conservatives* on a site like this one? For the most part, those folks are rabidly opposed to those who don't support their religious beliefs, and they don't like to be challenged.

What is the "left wing of the Democratic Party" anyway?

Does it consist of people who want a healthcare system like other advanced nations? Are people who want to get off fossil fuels and clean up the planet radical leftists? Are people who want to legitimately fix the homeless problem communists? Does changing the culture on guns and getting sane laws on the books for firearms constitute radical socialism? Etc.

These are the reasons I vote for Democrats. Those are all sane, reasonable policy positions that would help make this country a better place to live in. They're things that should have and could have been done already and none of them are radical. There's no Great Leap Forward to ensure those things get done.

*Every society needs a healthy conservative component, but they are now a tiny percentage of the GOP.

 

[Derec]

Do you expect to find charismatic Evangelicals,

No.

fascists,

This word has become increasingly meaningless lately. It's becoming like in actually existing socialist countries, where capitalist democracies were called "fascist".

or even legitimate political conservatives* on a site like this one?

Yes, I would expect more conservatives, independents like myself, and even more moderate Democrats on a site like this. Accusing everybody critical of the left of being a "Trumpsucker" is not very freethinking.

For the most part, those folks are rabidly opposed to those who don't support their religious beliefs, and they don't like to be challenged.

As are those on the far left. They get very rabid when some of their articles of faith get challenged, even if it is technically an ersatz religion.

What is the "left wing of the Democratic Party" anyway?

Isn't it rather self-explanatory? Those in the Demcoratic Party that are more left-wing compared to the rest. For example: Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren in the Senate, and Sgt. Sandy (aka AOC) and her Squad in the House. Pramila Jayapal and her so-called Progressive Caucus are part of the left wing too, but not as far left as the Squad, so I guess you could call the Squad the winglet at the end of the actual wing ...

Does it consist of people who want a healthcare system like other advanced nations?

Depends. "Other advanced nations" have a variety of healthcare systems, and these nations also have problems with their systems. Something like UK's NHS is definitely not a panacea.

Are people who want to get off fossil fuels and clean up the planet radical leftists?

Many of them are. GND, as vague as it is, is a far left policy proposal.
I am also in favor of getting off fossil fuels, but we have to be realistic about it. We will not get rid of fossil fuels in a decade - it will take more like three of them. I have discussed the difficulties of transitioning the entire US economy away from fossil fuels. So we must prioritize. We need to get out of coal ASAP, and worldwide as well. US should lead the way, but also exert pressure on countries like China, India and Indonesia.

Far left gets ideological about these things though. Anti-nuclear has been part of left-wing activism for decades and nuclear power is safe and has very low carbon emissions.

This graph also shows that it is advantageous to get rid of coal ASAP, even if that means using natural gas as a transition fuel. But left-wing Democrats are ideological about it too. They want to ban fracking. They are opposed to pipelines. All that even though fracking allowed US to greatly reduce our coal use for electricity generation and also allowed US to export LNG to Europe to make them less reliant on Russian imports when Russia invaded Ukraine in 2022.

Are people who want to legitimately fix the homeless problem communists?

No, but nobody claimed they were, so it's a straw man, as are the rest of your questions.

Does changing the culture on guns and getting sane laws on the books for firearms constitute radical socialism? Etc.

Again, a straw man. I support sane laws too. Congress getting together to codify a ban on bump stocks would be a good idea.

These are the reasons I vote for Democrats.

I generally vote Democratic too. I voted for Obama twice. I voted for Biden. I did not vote for Trump either time, and I do not plan to vote for him this year either.
But I also reserve the right to criticize Democrats when I think they are wrong, without certain posters on here responding with "Orange man bad" and "you are a Trumpsucker", no matter what thread these criticisms were offered in.
As I have shown with energy policy, these things are complicated, and we should discuss issues on their merits. Especially on a freethinker forum.

 

[Politesse]

This word has become increasingly meaningless lately. It's becoming like in actually existing socialist countries, where capitalist democracies were called "fascist".

Incorrect. A fascist political philosophy is one which favors extreme militaristic nationalism, contempt for electoral democracy and cultural liberalism, belief in a natural social hierarchy which justifiably destines certain demographics to be the elites, and the pre-eminence of the good of the nation over individual desires and freedoms.

 

[Ford]

What is the "left wing of the Democratic Party" anyway?

What used to be known as Democrats. For at least a few decades now, the Democrats have basically been the party of moderates who lean liberal on social issues but don't do much to challenge the corporate power structure. Yeah, there's outliers like Bernie, AOC, and Warren, but if someone like FDR (or his onetime VP Henry Wallace) popped up nowadays they'd be labeled a "radical" and would make the aforementioned folks seem downright mainstream. The last Democratic President who was actually full-on liberal is now living out his days in hospice care.

 

[Swammerdami]

This word has become increasingly meaningless lately. It's becoming like in actually existing socialist countries, where capitalist democracies were called "fascist".

Incorrect. A fascist political philosophy is one which favors extreme militaristic nationalism, contempt for electoral democracy and cultural liberalism, belief in a natural social hierarchy which justifiably destines certain demographics to be the elites, and the pre-eminence of the good of the nation over individual desires and freedoms.

Good definition. And Google gets this right: "fascism meaning" leads directly to Wikipedia's 1st paragraph, very similar to yours:

Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/ FASH-iz-əm) is a far-right, authoritarian, ultranationalist political ideology and movement, characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation or race, and strong regimentation of society and the economy.

Wikipedia cites Encyclopedia Britannica and Merriam-Webster. Those on the Left often misuse the term "fascism", but increasingly these days it is those on the right who misuse the term or pretend it is ambiguous -- to distract from how closely Trumpism fits the definition of fascism.

Most of us hate fascism. I wonder if even some Trumpsuckers would question their own beliefs if they understood how closely Trumpism fits the Fascism definition.

Hitler was called Der boehmische Gefreite (the Bohemian Corporal); we call Trump the Orange Messiah. Posters show their true colors when they insist on lies about "same-same", calling AOC "Sgt. Sandy" as tit-for-tat when their mascot is called the "Orange Messiah."

 

[Derec]

Incorrect. A fascist political philosophy is one which favors extreme militaristic nationalism, contempt for electoral democracy and cultural liberalism, belief in a natural social hierarchy which justifiably destines certain demographics to be the elites,

In theory, but we both know it is used much more broadly than that as a term of abuse.

and the pre-eminence of the good of the nation over individual desires and freedoms.

Collectivism is common on both the left and right. The only difference is that on the right the emphasis is on the nation, while the left has a more class focus, often internationally so. Both often emphasize race - for example, the Black Panther Party was on the collectivist left.

 

[Derec]

Hitler was called Der boehmische Gefreite (the Bohemian Corporal);

Hindenburg goofed. Hitler was not Bohemian. He was Austrian.

we call Trump the Orange Messiah. Posters show their true colors when they insist on lies about "same-same", calling AOC "Sgt. Sandy" as tit-for-tat when their mascot is called the "Orange Messiah."

I started calling AOC "Corporal Sandy" because she gave her band of far-left congresswomen (AOC herself, Ilhan Omar, Rashida Tlaib and Ayanna Pressley) the militaristic moniker "the Squad". I later promoted her to "Sgt. Sandy" as new members joined her squad.

Also, contrary to your continued misrepresentation, Trump is not my "mascot", much less "Messiah". He is not the Messiah, he's a very naughty boy!

 

[Derec]

What used to be known as Democrats. For at least a few decades now, the Democrats have basically been the party of moderates who lean liberal on social issues but don't do much to challenge the corporate power structure. Yeah, there's outliers like Bernie, AOC, and Warren,

The Dem left wing has become resurgent in recent years. Since the election of inaugural Squad members, their ranks have grown. There is also the Congressional Progressive Caucus. They managed to pull Biden to the left as well.

but if someone like FDR (or his onetime VP Henry Wallace) popped up nowadays they'd be labeled a "radical" and would make the aforementioned folks seem downright mainstream.

He'd be cancelled first for his policies on Japanese interment.

 

[Swammerdami]

Hitler was called Der boehmische Gefreite (the Bohemian Corporal); we call Trump the Orange Messiah. Posters show their true colors when they insist on lies about "same-same", calling AOC "Sgt. Sandy" as tit-for-tat when their mascot is called the "Orange Messiah."

I started calling AOC "Corporal Sandy" because she gave her band of far-left congresswomen (AOC herself, Ilhan Omar, Rashida Tlaib and Ayanna Pressley) the militaristic moniker "the Squad". I later promoted her to "Sgt. Sandy" as new members joined her squad.

Also, contrary to your continued misrepresentation, Trump is not my "mascot", much less "Messiah". He is not the Messiah, he's a very naughty boy!

Answer me this: If you shut up about politics for the rest of the year, and voted for Trump in November would that INcrease or DEcrease Biden's chance to win your key swing state?

Spoiler: When you pull the Trump lever on November 5, that will just be a SINGLE vote for fascism. Instead your foul thinking and nasty rhetoric doubtless influences your friends and relatives, and more than makes up for your own vote, even if you do vote for Biden.

 

[Derec]

Answer me this: If you shut up about politics for the rest of the year

It is actually a fascist ideal that leaders should not be criticized.
I reserve the right to criticize Biden and the Democratic Party and, no, I will not shut up.

Also, what I think will DEcrease Biden's chances in swing states is precisely what I criticize him for - caving to the left wing.

 

[ZiprHead]

He is not the Messiah, he's a very naughty boy!

That's the understatement of the decade.

 

[laughing dog]

Answer me this: If you shut up about politics for the rest of the year

It is actually a fascist ideal that leaders should not be criticized.
I reserve the right to criticize Biden and the Democratic Party and, no, I will not shut up.

Do you honk while goose stepping? Inquiring minds want to know.

 

[Swammerdami]

Answer me this: If you shut up about politics for the rest of the year

It is actually a fascist ideal that leaders should not be criticized.
I reserve the right to criticize Biden and the Democratic Party and, no, I will not shut up.

You are such a hypocrite. Here, you've truncated my sentence, a technique you learned from your mentors at Fox News. And you've no rebuttal for my claim that your nasty rhetoric increases Trump's chances.

The Nazis criticized Hans Vogel in the early 1930s. You would have applauded their exercise of free speech.

.

Do you honk while goose stepping? Inquiring minds want to know.