Where is Bernie Goetz when you need him?

[Malintent]

so when a violent theft occurs, it is the assailant that is the victim? Put this one in the "Inappropriate Victim Blaming claim" pile where my hobbyhorse can keep an eye on them.

We are all victims of the system that sees some as unworthy of full opportunity.

Once the violent behavior is there you have to try to contain it.

But there is a bigger picture and two possible futures. One where we try to give all people the same opportunities, which mean increasing opportunity for those raised in economic hardship. A color blind system based on economic history.

Or more of the same forever.

I'd love your input on this thread: https://talkfreethought.org/showthread.php?10739-What-is-minimally-acceptable
.. relating to what should be minimally acceptable with respect to a minimum wage... related to your post here, how do we determine what represents a fair opportunity to prosper?

 

[Nice Squirrel]

And thus we continue untermensche's parade of apologetics for violent antisocial behavior.

I wish there were some apologetics for all the antisocial behavior from the rich.

But these ghettos created by being the unwanted from capitalism are real.

And they have real human effects.

Blaming the victims might make some feel better but it will not make the situation any better.

Nonsense! Why with the proposed Kentucky Medicaid Fuckery the rich graciously will give "MyRewards" points to help make up for the $1000 deductible for making the employed poor go to job search classes, for the teetotalers to go to drug rehab, and the undernourished to report their weight to the government for approval before "My Rewards" points are given out.
Small government stating out of the business of private citizens.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I seriously do not understand what is wrong with you that makes you leap upon the questionable solution of shooting black kids.

Whatever it is is worse than kids robbing people on the BART.

Where did it say they were blacks kids?

Derec used the term "thugs" which is his terminology for "blacks".

 

[Nice Squirrel]

Where did it say they were blacks kids?

Derec used the term "thugs" which is his terminology for "blacks".

But "dindu" covers all races, as long as they are black.

 

[untermensche]

I wish there were some apologetics for all the antisocial behavior from the rich.

But these ghettos created by being the unwanted from capitalism are real.

And they have real human effects.

Blaming the victims might make some feel better but it will not make the situation any better.

Nonsense! Why with the proposed Kentucky Medicaid Fuckery the rich graciously will give "MyRewards" points to help make up for the $1000 deductible for making the employed poor go to job search classes, for the teetotalers to go to drug rehab, and the undernourished to report their weight to the government for approval before "My Rewards" points are given out.
Small government stating out of the business of private citizens.

I don't have a clue what point you are trying to make.

But the big problem right now is that all gains in wealth are being made by fewer and fewer.

The many are fighting for a shrinking pie.

The system is absurdly corrupted. The rich have controlled governments too long.

 

[Opoponax]

In most jurisdictions training isn't required to get a conceal and carry permit. Thanks NRA!

Really??? Here in California it's a two day class and you have to prove you're capable of handling the gun(s) you bring with you. I think you have to fire some 200 rounds by the the end of the course. I haven't applied because I can't think of a compelling enough reason for one, and if I made one up, the authorities here would probably tell me fuck off. And that's a good thing as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Nonsense! Why with the proposed Kentucky Medicaid Fuckery the rich graciously will give "MyRewards" points to help make up for the $1000 deductible for making the employed poor go to job search classes, for the teetotalers to go to drug rehab, and the undernourished to report their weight to the government for approval before "My Rewards" points are given out.
Small government stating out of the business of private citizens.

I don't have a clue what point you are trying to make.

But the big problem right now is that all gains in wealth are being made by fewer and fewer.

The many are fighting for a shrinking pie.

And these things need to be addressed, but a TRAM getting mugged by dozens of people?! That is unnerving and the response should be, 'man, that is a bit out of control', not 'well you know what happens with income inequality'.

The system is absurdly corrupted. The rich have controlled governments too long.

The rich have a very long track record of controlling government. Our trouble is less the "evil rich" as a majority of our funding goes to social programs, but the military industrial complex that is killing our budget.

 

[untermensche]

I don't have a clue what point you are trying to make.

But the big problem right now is that all gains in wealth are being made by fewer and fewer.

The many are fighting for a shrinking pie.

And these things need to be addressed, but a TRAM getting mugged by dozens of people?! That is unnerving and the response should be, 'man, that is a bit out of control', not 'well you know what happens with income inequality'.

No, the response should be that this is the kind of thing that happens with wealth inequality and power inequality.

And if it is horrific then we should attack the causes.

 

[Bronzeage]

Bernie Goetz - acquitted killer and a drug dealer - is more likely to have been part of the swarm rather than part of the solution.

Bernie Goetz has been remembered for what he thought he did, not what he really did.

The version of the incident which stuck in the public mind was a Charles Bronson fantasy scenario, which Bernie cooked up in the days before he turned himself in. He had a detailed, second by second narrative, in which he assessed his situation, made a careful battle plan of who to shoot first in order to escape a situation in which he was outnumbered 5 to 1. This went all the way to his scripted lines. Nothing like that really happened.

The forensic evidence shows a different story. Bernie was in a blind panic, overcome by fear, and firing wild. It's not really clear why he started shooting, because we only have his recollections of it all.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

Nonsense! Why with the proposed Kentucky Medicaid Fuckery the rich graciously will give "MyRewards" points to help make up for the $1000 deductible for making the employed poor go to job search classes, for the teetotalers to go to drug rehab, and the undernourished to report their weight to the government for approval before "My Rewards" points are given out.
Small government stating out of the business of private citizens.

I don't have a clue what point you are trying to make.

But the big problem right now is that all gains in wealth are being made by fewer and fewer.

The many are fighting for a shrinking pie.

The system is absurdly corrupted. The rich have controlled governments too long.

Nonsense. That rewards program will make only small profits for the investors, while keeping the takers from leeching of of free medical care. If the free market cannot save socialized medical care, who can?

Next you'll tell us some of the biggest famines in modern history were caused by capitalists not wanting to make people dependent of life-saving food!

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Bernie Goetz - acquitted killer and a drug dealer - is more likely to have been part of the swarm rather than part of the solution.

Bernie Goetz has been remembered for what he thought he did, not what he really did.

The version of the incident which stuck in the public mind was a Charles Bronson fantasy scenario, which Bernie cooked up in the days before he turned himself in. He had a detailed, second by second narrative, in which he assessed his situation, made a careful battle plan of who to shoot first in order to escape a situation in which he was outnumbered 5 to 1. This went all the way to his scripted lines. Nothing like that really happened.

The forensic evidence shows a different story. Bernie was in a blind panic, overcome by fear, and firing wild. It's not really clear why he started shooting, because we only have his recollections of it all.

Derec has odd idols.

 

[laughing dog]

Really? When has he ever shown any tendency to rob people on trains? He is also not a drug dealer.

He was arrested for selling pot to an undercover police officer (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/subway-vigilante-bernie-goetz-arrested-peddling-pot-article-1.1504621).

Not a killer either, as all the people he shot survived, and only one was even seriously injured.

Ok, an incompetent wannabe killer and a drug dealer. Meets the basic requirements for a thug, yet for some reason, you cannot bring yourself to call him one. I wonder why.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

He was arrested for selling pot to an undercover police officer (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/cri...goetz-arrested-peddling-pot-article-1.1504621).

Not a killer either, as all the people he shot survived, and only one was even seriously injured.

Ok, an incompetent wannabe killer and a drug dealer. Meets the basic requirements for a thug, yet for some reason, you cannot bring yourself to call him one. I wonder why.

In the police interview didn't Goetz say he intended to kill them or inflict serious harm?

 

[Toni]

- where does it say they were black? The article doesn't say.
- when a mob of 50-60 teenagers ("kids" is a misnomer, even if they are slightly under 18) attacks people, they should be able to defend themselves.
- where was BART police?

True, but there is your very well documented posting history. Perhaps this is the very first time that you used 'thug' to describe a white person or posted any wrong doing by any white male.

Whatever it is is worse than kids robbing people on the BART.

I disagree. You makes your choice, you takes your chances. The innocent, fare-paying riders of BART should not have to take risks to life, limb and property just to not endanger some criminals.

Yeah, you misunderstood my actual point, whether an honest misinterpretation or a deliberate one.

My remark was not about the kids robbing people on the BART. It was about you.

Here's the quote (me):

I seriously do not understand what is wrong with you that makes you leap upon the questionable solution of shooting black kids.

Whatever it is is worse than kids robbing people on the BART.

It would have been made more clear, perhaps, with a comma:

"Whatever it is, is worse than kids robbing people on the BART."

To simplify: Whatever is wrong with you is worse than kids robbing people on the BART.

 

[ronburgundy]

Let's just say somebody will be punished. Like the Central Park 5.

If 50-60 kids were involved there is probably a social media footprint.

True, because almost all of them likely had smart phones, and most much more expensive than mine, which is why the excuse that they were all desperately poor victims of capitalism is nonsense.
Most likely they are inductees into a violent gang and this mass robbery was orchestrated by adult gang members that will take most of the haul.

 

[J842P]

50 - 60 juveniles committing a swarm attack on a train is unacceptable. Where were the police? Obviously, this was planned. It is crap like this that makes people want to carry, and gets people shot.

Policing resources are limited. Oakland's got a lot of shit to deal with. That being said, one might expect a subway station to be policed.

 

[Toni]

If 50-60 kids were involved there is probably a social media footprint.

True, because almost all of them likely had smart phones, and most much more expensive than mine, which is why the excuse that they were all desperately poor victims of capitalism is nonsense.
Most likely they are inductees into a violent gang and this mass robbery was orchestrated by adult gang members that will take most of the haul.

Not nearly so likely as it was a senior prank. A horrible one, yes, but much more likely than a 'gang' initiation.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

True, because almost all of them likely had smart phones, and most much more expensive than mine, which is why the excuse that they were all desperately poor victims of capitalism is nonsense.
Most likely they are inductees into a violent gang and this mass robbery was orchestrated by adult gang members that will take most of the haul.

Not nearly so likely as it was a senior prank. A horrible one, yes, but much more likely than a 'gang' initiation.

Yeah, that'd be pretty big for a gang, and with a very low rate of return.

 

[J842P]

Goetz was a mixed bagged, Derec.

To me this is about lack of policing and also lack of social support (have you seen what a disaster NYC was in 70s and 80s?) for those teens - not to excuse their actions. This was a case where both the right and left had good points.


This world has a limited amount of resources produced at any one time. At the top are the people in control, politically and/or financially get a huge amount of the pie. The Shrinking middle get an ok amount and the poor get crumbs or have programs keep them afloat.

The real losers are the plants and animals that we are just killing (directly or through loss of habitat) for our stuff that doesn't even make us happy. And also our descendants consigned to a Mad Max future.


At any rate Jordan Peterson, the professor that the alt-right mistakenly thinks agrees with them, has interesting insights into relative poverty and young male violence. This has much more to do with what happened in Oakland (if the kids were black) than any race based effect could have.

I've seen this video before, and Peterson makes a good point, and I trust his reasoning on the psychological underpinnings. It really should be watched by Left and Right.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

True, because almost all of them likely had smart phones, and most much more expensive than mine, which is why the excuse that they were all desperately poor victims of capitalism is nonsense.
Most likely they are inductees into a violent gang and this mass robbery was orchestrated by adult gang members that will take most of the haul.

Not nearly so likely as it was a senior prank. A horrible one, yes, but much more likely than a 'gang' initiation.

This would be bad news. It'd indicate that gangs are in competition with each other to reduce time and costs and layoffs could be imminent.