White college students: riot and destroy property. Police: “Meh.”

[none]

I say that if we really want better police outcomes: upfund the police. Pay them more, train the better, train them much better, screen them more, demand more from them, and provide them with better support.

when do you expect this strategy to work?

It already works. Canadian police officers are paid $40,000 more on average than American police officers. They receive more training and more highly screened. US police use "force" six times more than Canadian police.

https://online.wlu.ca/news/2017/01/03/policing-canada-vs-policing-usa

oh my.
can you please explain the ancillary comment about 40k?

 

[none]

I say that if we really want better police outcomes: upfund the police. Pay them more, train the better, train them much better, screen them more, demand more from them, and provide them with better support.

when do you expect this strategy to work?

Within three years of raising starting pay to $150k and making existing cops compete with new applicants for the job.

"i'll gladly pay you tuesday for a hamburger today."?

 

[Harry Bosch]

It already works. Canadian police officers are paid $40,000 more on average than American police officers. They receive more training and more highly screened. US police use "force" six times more than Canadian police.

https://online.wlu.ca/news/2017/01/03/policing-canada-vs-policing-usa

oh my.
can you please explain the ancillary comment about 40k?

Oh my. Do you not have google?

https://naibuzz.com/countries-pay-police-officers-highest-world/

Average Canadian officer salary is $100,000. Average salary in the US: $60,000.

 

[Rhea]

While simultaneously motivating the other cops to cover up dysfunctional police behavior, to protect their pensions.
Tom

I also wanted to address this issue: people naturally cover for each other. This is a natural trait. Bankers cover for other bankers. Soldiers cover for other soldiers. Teachers cover for bad teachers. Doctors cover for bad doctors. Air Traffic Controllers cover for bad Air Traffic Controllers, and etc. It's human nature. When people work together, they bond, and they cover for each other. Cops are no different than any other profession in this trait.

I don't see that level of cover in other professions.
When a teacher is caught sexting with a student, they are usually fired quickly, and other teachers do not close ranks. Same with when a teacher gets caught misusing school equipment.
When a nurse was recently in the news for falsifying radiology results, there is no one who watched her do that and said nothing - she was turned in.

I see very often that most professions DO monitor their own and turn them in for violations.

Not police, though, and not military.

 

[none]

It already works. Canadian police officers are paid $40,000 more on average than American police officers. They receive more training and more highly screened. US police use "force" six times more than Canadian police.

https://online.wlu.ca/news/2017/01/03/policing-canada-vs-policing-usa

oh my.
can you please explain the ancillary comment about 40k?

Oh my. Do you not have google?

https://naibuzz.com/countries-pay-police-officers-highest-world/

Average Canadian officer salary is $100,000. Average salary in the US: $60,000.

did you read this article? https://online.wlu.ca/news/2017/01/03/policing-canada-vs-policing-usa ?

 

[Harry Bosch]

Oh my. Do you not have google?

https://naibuzz.com/countries-pay-police-officers-highest-world/

Average Canadian officer salary is $100,000. Average salary in the US: $60,000.

did you read this article? https://online.wlu.ca/news/2017/01/03/policing-canada-vs-policing-usa ?

I did. The differences between Canada and the US are complicated and cannot be pared down to a couple sentences in a forum. But clearly Canadian police are higher paid, higher trained, higher supported by the public, and more highly screened than their counterparts in the US. (Sorry for the bad english). And there are better police outcomes in Canada compared to the US.

 

[TomC]

I did. The differences between Canada and the US are complicated and cannot be pared down to a couple sentences in a forum. But clearly Canadian police are higher paid, higher trained, higher supported by the public, and more highly screened than their counterparts in the US. (Sorry for the bad english). And there are better police outcomes in Canada compared to the US.

Can I ask a couple of questions?
Like, are they controlling for the difference between Canadian dollars and USD? It's a big difference.

Also, the rate of violence in Canada is a fraction of the USA. Are the situations the cops face comparable?

That's a start. I've got more.
Tom

 

[none]

Oh my. Do you not have google?

https://naibuzz.com/countries-pay-police-officers-highest-world/

Average Canadian officer salary is $100,000. Average salary in the US: $60,000.

did you read this article? https://online.wlu.ca/news/2017/01/03/policing-canada-vs-policing-usa ?

I did. The differences between Canada and the US are complicated and cannot be pared down to a couple sentences in a forum. But clearly Canadian police are higher paid, higher trained, higher supported by the public, and more highly screened than their counterparts in the US. (Sorry for the bad english). And there are better police outcomes in Canada compared to the US.

yeah yeah.
that's why you didn't use the article as a basis for your ancillary comment about 40k?

 

[Harry Bosch]

I did. The differences between Canada and the US are complicated and cannot be pared down to a couple sentences in a forum. But clearly Canadian police are higher paid, higher trained, higher supported by the public, and more highly screened than their counterparts in the US. (Sorry for the bad english). And there are better police outcomes in Canada compared to the US.

yeah yeah.
that's why you didn't use the article as a basis for your ancillary comment about 40k?

Is it really hard to believe that if you treat people better, that you'll attract a better more qualified applicant, and that they will perform better? This is true in every industry. And it's true for cops. If you want to make the opposite claim, the extraordinary claim: that cops are special and won't respond to better pay in training, then you need to find evidence supporting this.

 

[none]

I did. The differences between Canada and the US are complicated and cannot be pared down to a couple sentences in a forum. But clearly Canadian police are higher paid, higher trained, higher supported by the public, and more highly screened than their counterparts in the US. (Sorry for the bad english). And there are better police outcomes in Canada compared to the US.

yeah yeah.
that's why you didn't use the article as a basis for your ancillary comment about 40k?

Is it really hard to believe that if you treat people better, that you'll attract a better more qualified applicant, and that they will perform better? This is true in every industry. And it's true for cops. If you want to make the opposite claim, the extraordinary claim: that cops are special and won't respond to better pay in training, then you need to find evidence supporting this.

lol
"pay in training" what kind of backwards conflating is this?
let me guess, you posted an article, which mention nothing about your ancillary comment about 40k.
then admit the source of your comment was a Google search that includes your ancillary comment about 40k.
and now you want to discuss "pay 'em more because that works"?
I'm questioning your usage of the word venue.

 

[Elixir]

Within three years of raising starting pay to $150k and making existing cops compete with new applicants for the job.

"i'll gladly pay you tuesday for a hamburger today."?

An effect would be immediate. Full effect a few years to follow.
This is viewed by the right similarly to infrastructure overhaul. Too expensive. Look at all that money they’re wasting.
We can’t afford it (because WE gave trillions away to our donors).

In this case incarceration rates would go down. How much, only doing it would reveal. But US incarceration rates are appalling so there’s lots of upside potential and there’s a lot of money saved by even a small decrease. And that is one of many cost- offsetting factors.

But Republicans want to continue to try to privatize and profit from incarcerations so I don’t expect anything to happen before 2023, and even then only if 2022 brings a dem landslide across the board.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

That seems a bit off topic for this thread. If you would like to learn what it means, however, I understand there are some obscure features of the internet that people call "search engines" that might help enlighten you.

No, I am not interested in what it means to other people. I'm interested in what you mean by it. Are you advocating to defund the police? And if you are, what do you mean by 'defund the police'?

example: take the money used to pay people who are victims of police misconduct from the police retirement coffers

That's still going to get the same result we see--more crime.

We need to go after the actual problems, not target the police as a whole.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

While simultaneously motivating the other cops to cover up dysfunctional police behavior, to protect their pensions.
Tom

I also wanted to address this issue: people naturally cover for each other. This is a natural trait. Bankers cover for other bankers. Soldiers cover for other soldiers. Teachers cover for bad teachers. Doctors cover for bad doctors. Air Traffic Controllers cover for bad Air Traffic Controllers, and etc. It's human nature. When people work together, they bond, and they cover for each other. Cops are no different than any other profession in this trait.

It's even more of an issue with the police because an officer that doesn't go along is likely to find themselves not getting support when they really need it.

 

[none]

example: take the money used to pay people who are victims of police misconduct from the police retirement coffers

That's still going to get the same result we see--more crime.

We need to go after the actual problems, not target the police as a whole.

https://www.dispatch.com/story/news...ave-students-angry-wanting-answers/7284583002

Taras, an Ohio State senior studying strategic communications and business, had been hanging out at her neighbor's house on Chittenden Avenue while nearly 1,000 students partied outside their door at "ChittFest," an annual block party held the day of OSU's spring football game.

“The police dispatcher told me, and I quote, 'They have other things to worry about and they'll come down when it's safe for them,'" said Taras, 22, of Cleveland. "I'm really disappointed there were no police there."

Students such as Taras are still angry that police officers didn't respond sooner. She wondered why officers didn't respond to students destroying property the same way they responded to Black Lives Matter protesters over the summer.

"What does that have to say about this summer? People were peacefully protesting and got pepper sprayed. People flip cars on campus and nothing. No repercussions, no arrests," Taras

White college students: riot and destroy property. Police: “Meh.”?

 

[none]

...

We need to go after the actual problems, not target the police as a whole.

I also wanted to address this issue: people naturally cover for each other. This is a natural trait. Bankers cover for other bankers. Soldiers cover for other soldiers. Teachers cover for bad teachers. Doctors cover for bad doctors. Air Traffic Controllers cover for bad Air Traffic Controllers, and etc. It's human nature. When people work together, they bond, and they cover for each other. Cops are no different than any other profession in this trait.

It's even more of an issue with the police because an officer that doesn't go along is likely to find themselves not getting support when they really need it.

but cops are different?

 

[Metaphor]

That's not an answer to the question. I'll ask again, if the police could not make you accountable, what crimes would you commit?

It depends on what you mean by 'the police'. If there was no State apparatus to enforce trans ideology, for example, I would probably feel okay to say 'trans women are men' on social media. At the moment in Australia, the State could punish me for saying that. But those complaints are handled by tribunals and not the police as such.

As for crimes the police would ordinarily attend? None.

If your desire to insult people you don't know is the limit of your antisocial behavior, the money spent to to prevent you from committing crimes against life and property is certainly wasted and could be used for better purposes.

I haven't any desire to insult people: I have a desire to be able to express obvious truths without the State forbidding it.

As for the idea that funding the police is wasteful because I personally don't commit crimes against life and property, I don't know what to say to that. What a bizarre take. I'm funding police because of the crimes other people commit.

 

[Elixir]

I haven't any desire to insult people: I have a desire to be able to express obvious truths without the State forbidding it.

What would happen to you if you spoke your obvious truth opinion? I am truly curious.

I assume you could say "trans women are men" in your own home at minimal risk.
At the other extreme, if you go to a gay pride event and start yelling it out in a crowd you might get beat up or something.
But I'd blame you - who apparently automatically doesn't like people if they're gay or trans - for intentionally going into a crowd of people knowing how they'd react to your baiting.

In between the two extremes, are you subject to legal repercussions for saying "trans women are men"?
If so, in what context would it put you in jeopardy?
What about saying "the moon is made of green cheese"? Will that get you thrown in jail as well?
Can you invoke the "I'm a Republican so anything I say can't possibly be taken seriously by any reasonable person" defense?

Sounds like you're pretty damn oppressed there down under.

 

[Metaphor]

I assume you could say "trans women are men" in your own home at minimal risk.

I could; Australia's strictures on free speech tend to apply to things 'in public' (which of course includes social media) but not within the confines of your private home. (Some places like Scotland, however, want to criminalise "hate speech" even within the confines of your own home).

At the other extreme, if you go to a gay pride event and start yelling it out in a crowd you might get beat up or something.
But I'd blame you - who apparently automatically doesn't like people if they're gay or trans - for intentionally going into a crowd of people knowing how they'd react to your baiting.

While I'm not at all surprised that you would blame the victim, it's telling that you think saying 'trans women are men' is something that would trigger people in a gay pride event to violence.

It's also strange that you think I "automatically don't like people if they're gay or trans". I've never said such a thing nor is it true.

In between the two extremes, are you subject to legal repercussions for saying "trans women are men"?
If so, in what context would it put you in jeopardy?

If I said it on social media and somebody decided that it was an attack on their human rights.

Of course, setting aside the issue of government involvement, the surest way to be permanently banned on Twitter is to 'misgender' somebody.

What about saying "the moon is made of green cheese"? Will that get you thrown in jail as well?

No.

Can you invoke the "I'm a Republican so anything I say can't possibly be taken seriously by any reasonable person" defense?

No. I don't even know what that means.

Sounds like you're pretty damn oppressed there down under.

Australia is less free than it should be because of its strictures on speech.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

If your desire to insult people you don't know is the limit of your antisocial behavior, the money spent to to prevent you from committing crimes against life and property is certainly wasted and could be used for better purposes.

I haven't any desire to insult people: I have a desire to be able to express obvious truths without the State forbidding it.

As for the idea that funding the police is wasteful because I personally don't commit crimes against life and property, I don't know what to say to that. What a bizarre take. I'm funding police because of the crimes other people commit.

Obviously blacks are inferior.

Obviously Jews are evil and trying to control the world.

Obviously the Chinese are opium addicts.

Obviously no Irish need apply.


(To clarify: I was citing a bunch of "obvious truths" that time has shown to be false. If I really thought the Chinese were all opium addicts would I be married to one??)

 

[Toni]

I haven't any desire to insult people: I have a desire to be able to express obvious truths without the State forbidding it.

What would happen to you if you spoke your obvious truth opinion? I am truly curious.

I assume you could say "trans women are men" in your own home at minimal risk.
At the other extreme, if you go to a gay pride event and start yelling it out in a crowd you might get beat up or something.
But I'd blame you - who apparently automatically doesn't like people if they're gay or trans - for intentionally going into a crowd of people knowing how they'd react to your baiting.

In between the two extremes, are you subject to legal repercussions for saying "trans women are men"?
If so, in what context would it put you in jeopardy?
What about saying "the moon is made of green cheese"? Will that get you thrown in jail as well?
Can you invoke the "I'm a Republican so anything I say can't possibly be taken seriously by any reasonable person" defense?

Sounds like you're pretty damn oppressed there down under.

Eh, even if someone is asshole enough to go to a gay pride event and start screaming anti-gay (or trans women are men) slogans, while it might not be that surprising if that got the asshole beat up, it still should be illegal to beat up people for saying things that are offensive.

However, this is not the same thing as being allowed to go into say, a bar, or a club and scream anti-gay slogans or racist or sexist or whatever slogans. That sort of behavior could get you kicked out, assuming it is against the rules of the establishment but it shouldn't get you beat up. It could and should get you a nice long sit down at HR or, if the offense is repeated often enough, fired if you so this at work but it shouldn't get you beat up. It should and could get you a nice long sit down with the school counselor or dean or principal or whoever if you do this at school but it shouldn't get you beat up. Or arrested, etc.

Being an absolute dick to people can have all sorts of consequences but people should not go around beating people up, even if seems like a logical consequence. I have no problem with people losing friends or other relationships, losing their job, maybe their slot at school, their seat at the bar or in a restaurant or club, or membership in an organization but I don't think you should get beat up for being an absolute dick or arrested, either. Unless part of being a dick is throwing a punch or destroying property, etc, and other dickish behavior.