Why it's ok to be a rambling fool.

[Elixir]

Btw, supposedly the work on Project 2025 has stopped because Trump got in a rage over it. I hope the idiots that designed that shit realize it's not a winning issue for the majority of the country.

Do you honestly believe it stopped just because it started getting attention? That's not how religious fundamentalists operate. They're going to keep working on it.

That was my first thought - they’ll drop the series of characters that spells “PROJECT 2025” and keep working on implementing the rest of it. I doubt they’re gonna be putting out more manifestos any time soon; they’ll just keep trying to implement the one they have.

 

[southernhybrid]

Btw, supposedly the work on Project 2025 has stopped because Trump got in a rage over it. I hope the idiots that designed that shit realize it's not a winning issue for the majority of the country.

Do you honestly believe it stopped just because it started getting attention? That's not how religious fundamentalists operate. They're going to keep working on it.

Probably, but I don't think it will be possible for them to actually get what they want. The more people learn about it, the more they are against it. It's up to the rest of us to decide whether to be cowards or to be activists for the majority. These little shits are not the majority, so we must use our power to vote and do whatever else we are capable of, to stop the madness. I have hope. I'm not physically able to do much, but I do engage in conversations with Trump supporters when the opportunity presents itself. I do ask people who they are voting for and I do encourage those who have never voted, to please vote in this extremely important election.

And please, let's not forget that the fundamentalists are dying out. They are the minority and some like my late mother are even disgusted with their peers. Most Christians support the SCS. We need to be allied with them. I try to do that as well.

 

[southernhybrid]

Btw, supposedly the work on Project 2025 has stopped because Trump got in a rage over it. I hope the idiots that designed that shit realize it's not a winning issue for the majority of the country.

Do you honestly believe it stopped just because it started getting attention? That's not how religious fundamentalists operate. They're going to keep working on it.

That was my first thought - they’ll drop the series of characters that spells “PROJECT 2025” and keep working on implementing the rest of it. I doubt they’re gonna be putting out more manifestos any time soon; they’ll just keep trying to implement the one they have.

I just responded to GenesisNemesis, so that applies to your post as well. How about, don't give up the fight against these sick minorities who want to destroy democracy and the SCS. Be outspoken. Educate the low information voters. Do whatever you can to help preserve the better aspects of our country, while not expecting perfection. My biggest fear is their denial of climate change. It's so obvious that it's here, yet they deny or prefer to pretend it's not happening. Maybe it's too late, but we can each do a little bit to help in small ways.

Just because they try doesn't mean they will accomplish something that the majority opposes. Never forget that. The GOP are making idiots of themselves, so I feel more hopeful than I did a few months ago.

 

[Elixir]

My biggest fear is their denial of climate change. It's so obvious that it's here, yet they deny or prefer to pretend it's not happening.

We are only human. Climate change is an issue that provokes a very unpleasant feeling of helplessness. "It's the whole fucking PLANET! WTF am I s;posed to do about it? Oh well, screw it!"
We can only "fix it" the same way we'd messed it up. It's going to take a long time, progress will be in imperceptible increments and it's only going to happen if people either gain an understanding of its mechanics (unlikely) or we re-gain our collective confidence in the accuracy and efficacy of science. Trump has set us back decades on that front. One guy. An ignorant asshole, and the human race will pay a huge price. We can't afford too many more troglodytic "leaders" like him.

 

[southernhybrid]

My biggest fear is their denial of climate change. It's so obvious that it's here, yet they deny or prefer to pretend it's not happening.

We are only human. Climate change is an issue that provokes a very unpleasant feeling of helplessness. "It's the whole fucking PLANET! WTF am I s;posed to do about it? Oh well, screw it!"
We can only "fix it" the same way we'd messed it up. It's going to take a long time, progress will be in imperceptible increments and it's only going to happen if people either gain an understanding of its mechanics (unlikely) or we re-gain our collective confidence in the accuracy and efficacy of science. Trump has set us back decades on that front. One guy. An ignorant asshole, and the human race will pay a huge price. We can't afford too many more troglodytic "leaders" like him.

I don't disagree and that is my greatest fear of a Trump second term, not the other things, but his denial of climate change. Still, right now, I'm quite optimistic that he will lose. We'll have to see how the next couple of months go. Hopefully Harris can keep energizing people, especially the young and the minority voters who weren't motivated to vote before she became the candidate. It's all about getting out the vote, but I'm repeating myself like a rambling fool, so I'll leave it at that.

 

[Shadowy Man]

It's all about getting out the vote,

and the certification of the voting results.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Immigration is a good thing and a bad thing. From my personal knowledge, increasing the non-English speaking population at schools drains schools budgets. It just does. People who have lived here for years or generations can be very upset about resources being taken from their kids and used for someone else’s kids. This is true whenever school budgets get tight and programming and staffing gets cut—regardless of the reasons. Raising property taxes ( a major source of public school funding in the US) is also

And even if it doesn't drain budgets it lowers the average student ability and thus the education that students will get. This is inevitable as a teacher can't teach at different levels to different students in the same class.

???

Yes, I will agree that not being able to speak English would create a strain on an elementary school teacher. However, the idea that teachers can't teach different levels to different students in class... what school did you go to? Most classrooms are like that! In elementary school we had the good reading group and not as good reading group. In college, we had the engineering classes with the brightest folks and the what are you doing here folks.

The closest I was to being in a class with everyone around the same ability were the AP and Accelerated courses in High School.

Beyond the intro classes I never saw a big range of ability in a college course. Once you got past the first-year weedout classes most everyone was reasonably competent.

And I'm not saying it's impossible to teach to a mixed class, but that teaching to a mixed class will lessen the learning. They're no way to challenge the good ones without leaving the poor ones behind.

Well, we are talking about K-12 or pre-k-12. Or I was. Yes, university classes seem to be able to get students on the right area of class work pertinent to their ambitions and abilities. At least public K-12 take all comers. Universities also have special courses for non-native speakers to boost their competency. And usually mandate TOEFL tests prior to admissions—or that used to be so….

I was saying it reduces learning, not that it eliminates it. You can teach to a class of mixed ability but you won't do as well as teachers with a more similar group. Those AP classes are a good example. Same school, same teachers, better results. Because the students are a big part of how much they learn.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Btw, supposedly the work on Project 2025 has stopped because Trump got in a rage over it. I hope the idiots that designed that shit realize it's not a winning issue for the majority of the country.

They know it's not what the people want. The Republicans aren't about democracy. P2025 shows how far from democracy they have gotten.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Btw, supposedly the work on Project 2025 has stopped because Trump got in a rage over it. I hope the idiots that designed that shit realize it's not a winning issue for the majority of the country.

Do you honestly believe it stopped just because it started getting attention? That's not how religious fundamentalists operate. They're going to keep working on it.

Probably, but I don't think it will be possible for them to actually get what they want. The more people learn about it, the more they are against it. It's up to the rest of us to decide whether to be cowards or to be activists for the majority. These little shits are not the majority, so we must use our power to vote and do whatever else we are capable of, to stop the madness. I have hope. I'm not physically able to do much, but I do engage in conversations with Trump supporters when the opportunity presents itself. I do ask people who they are voting for and I do encourage those who have never voted, to please vote in this extremely important election.

And please, let's not forget that the fundamentalists are dying out. They are the minority and some like my late mother are even disgusted with their peers. Most Christians support the SCS. We need to be allied with them. I try to do that as well.

Look at how the conservatives are going all head-in-sand over it. They don't want to believe they're voting for evil.

 

[Toni]

Immigration is a good thing and a bad thing. From my personal knowledge, increasing the non-English speaking population at schools drains schools budgets. It just does. People who have lived here for years or generations can be very upset about resources being taken from their kids and used for someone else’s kids. This is true whenever school budgets get tight and programming and staffing gets cut—regardless of the reasons. Raising property taxes ( a major source of public school funding in the US) is also

And even if it doesn't drain budgets it lowers the average student ability and thus the education that students will get. This is inevitable as a teacher can't teach at different levels to different students in the same class.

???

Yes, I will agree that not being able to speak English would create a strain on an elementary school teacher. However, the idea that teachers can't teach different levels to different students in class... what school did you go to? Most classrooms are like that! In elementary school we had the good reading group and not as good reading group. In college, we had the engineering classes with the brightest folks and the what are you doing here folks.

The closest I was to being in a class with everyone around the same ability were the AP and Accelerated courses in High School.

Beyond the intro classes I never saw a big range of ability in a college course. Once you got past the first-year weedout classes most everyone was reasonably competent.

And I'm not saying it's impossible to teach to a mixed class, but that teaching to a mixed class will lessen the learning. They're no way to challenge the good ones without leaving the poor ones behind.

Well, we are talking about K-12 or pre-k-12. Or I was. Yes, university classes seem to be able to get students on the right area of class work pertinent to their ambitions and abilities. At least public K-12 take all comers. Universities also have special courses for non-native speakers to boost their competency. And usually mandate TOEFL tests prior to admissions—or that used to be so….

I was saying it reduces learning, not that it eliminates it. You can teach to a class of mixed ability but you won't do as well as teachers with a more similar group. Those AP classes are a good example. Same school, same teachers, better results. Because the students are a big part of how much they learn.

Loren, it’s been a long time since either of us have been in K-12 school. I have the advantage of having seen my own kids go through K-12( and college) much more recently than that. Yeah, they were in some classes with students with serious academic challenges. They were also in school with classmates of limited English abilities, a few of which included foreign exchange students we hosted. With two exceptions, the exchange students we hosted were very good to very excellent students, although none started with excellent English skills. One did take ESL classes and he was one of the two not great students, but that pertained much more to his personal circumstances than his ability to do well in school.

Yes, in many schools, students are sorted—either by choice or steered into courses that are more challenging or less challenging, according to students’ abilities, interests, and goals. Yes, teachers who have an entire class full of highly motivated, intelligent, hard working students can cover more subject material than a class with unmotivated students or those with additional challenges. Teachers are trained to do that as well, and to get students who need extra help the help they need.FFS, more than 50 years ago, students were paired up to help students learn. College students form study groups on their own. Students who struggle can make use of the many options for extra help.

YES it is an issue for underfunded and unprepared schools to deal with a significant number of non-English speaking students. But they can and do do it with enough funding to hire ESL teachers. One of my friends became certified to teach adult English classes in his retirement.

 

[laughing dog]

But Trump does give voice to their prejudices and bigotries. Finally there is a powerful person saying out loud what they think and what has been been considered politically incorrect. They have been made to feel invisible, inconsequential. They feel blamed for their circumstances.

Think of it this way: look at the huge outpouring of support for Kamala Harris from women and persons of color and even white dudes! Women and persons of color feel seen, and elevated. I’m a lifelong science nerd —but not a history nerd ir even mild fan. I was thrilled when Hidden Figures came out—saw the movie multiple times, bought the book and other similar ones about women in science and math, bought the books, felt proud and vindicated to get some recognition and a bit furious that this part of history had been ignored—hidden. BTW, ALL of my sisters and I pursued careers in math and science. My baby sister is 60. We are so fortunate my father pushed us in that direction and praised us for our success ( mom, not so much).

I think there is an important difference between feeling validated as a woman or a person of color or as a science nerd, and feeling validated for one’s prejudices and bigotries.

Not to the individual who feels validated - which is the issue for those JH identifies.

 

[bilby]

I was saying it reduces learning, not that it eliminates it. You can teach to a class of mixed ability but you won't do as well as teachers with a more similar group. Those AP classes are a good example. Same school, same teachers, better results.

That rather depends on whether your definition of "learning" is a narrow one, in which learning is successful if (and ONLY if) students come away with increased knowledge of the specific facts and techniques specified in the lesson plan; Or a broad one, in which learning is succcessful if students come away with increased knowledge of facts and techniques that will help them to succeed in the adult world.

Knowing that 6 x 7 = 42 might be the goal of a primary school teaching moment. But a kid who comes away not knowing what 6 x 7 is, but freshly aware that Ethiopian kids might be as good at (or even better at) math than American kids, despite looking a bit weird, cannot be said to have learned nothing - despite not having improved his exam scores one iota.

If schools (particularly primary schools) are solely about improving children's exam scores, you are doing education wrong. Schools teach children how to be adults, and school systems that divide students between 'successes' and 'failures' are setting up a divided and ugly future.

(Even if the prejudices of the staff are completely eliminated from the process, which they cannot be).

 

[southernhybrid]

Btw, supposedly the work on Project 2025 has stopped because Trump got in a rage over it. I hope the idiots that designed that shit realize it's not a winning issue for the majority of the country.

They know it's not what the people want. The Republicans aren't about democracy. P2025 shows how far from democracy they have gotten.

I realize that, but one more decent Republican, the former Lt. Governor of Georgia, has been speaking out against Trump and saying he won't vote for him. I need to have hope!

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Yes, in many schools, students are sorted—either by choice or steered into courses that are more challenging or less challenging, according to students’ abilities, interests, and goals. Yes, teachers who have an entire class full of highly motivated, intelligent, hard working students can cover more subject material than a class with unmotivated students or those with additional challenges. Teachers are trained to do that as well, and to get students who need extra help the help they need.FFS, more than 50 years ago, students were paired up to help students learn. College students form study groups on their own. Students who struggle can make use of the many options for extra help.

So you're admitting I'm right then turning right around and dismissing it.

YES it is an issue for underfunded and unprepared schools to deal with a significant number of non-English speaking students. But they can and do do it with enough funding to hire ESL teachers. One of my friends became certified to teach adult English classes in his retirement.

If we are going to throw money at it we could have improved learning for everybody with those same resources.

For any given reasonable amount of resources you will get more education if you sort students by ability.

 

[Toni]

Yes, in many schools, students are sorted—either by choice or steered into courses that are more challenging or less challenging, according to students’ abilities, interests, and goals. Yes, teachers who have an entire class full of highly motivated, intelligent, hard working students can cover more subject material than a class with unmotivated students or those with additional challenges. Teachers are trained to do that as well, and to get students who need extra help the help they need.FFS, more than 50 years ago, students were paired up to help students learn. College students form study groups on their own. Students who struggle can make use of the many options for extra help.

So you're admitting I'm right then turning right around and dismissing it.

YES it is an issue for underfunded and unprepared schools to deal with a significant number of non-English speaking students. But they can and do do it with enough funding to hire ESL teachers. One of my friends became certified to teach adult English classes in his retirement.

If we are going to throw money at it we could have improved learning for everybody with those same resources.

For any given reasonable amount of resources you will get more education if you sort students by ability.

Sorting students according to perceived academic ability DOES help students sorted into higher level courses —and does the opposite for other students.

When all students are treated as having great academic and creative potential risk results in higher educational attainment for everyone.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Yes, in many schools, students are sorted—either by choice or steered into courses that are more challenging or less challenging, according to students’ abilities, interests, and goals. Yes, teachers who have an entire class full of highly motivated, intelligent, hard working students can cover more subject material than a class with unmotivated students or those with additional challenges. Teachers are trained to do that as well, and to get students who need extra help the help they need.FFS, more than 50 years ago, students were paired up to help students learn. College students form study groups on their own. Students who struggle can make use of the many options for extra help.

So you're admitting I'm right then turning right around and dismissing it.

YES it is an issue for underfunded and unprepared schools to deal with a significant number of non-English speaking students. But they can and do do it with enough funding to hire ESL teachers. One of my friends became certified to teach adult English classes in his retirement.

If we are going to throw money at it we could have improved learning for everybody with those same resources.

For any given reasonable amount of resources you will get more education if you sort students by ability.

Sorting students according to perceived academic ability DOES help students sorted into higher level courses —and does the opposite for other students.

When all students are treated as having great academic and creative potential risk results in higher educational attainment for everyone.

No, that's not what we see.

Put a student into a higher class and they probably get left behind. Put them in a class with their peers and the teaching directed at the class benefits them. More learning for a given amount of resources.

 

[Toni]

Yes, in many schools, students are sorted—either by choice or steered into courses that are more challenging or less challenging, according to students’ abilities, interests, and goals. Yes, teachers who have an entire class full of highly motivated, intelligent, hard working students can cover more subject material than a class with unmotivated students or those with additional challenges. Teachers are trained to do that as well, and to get students who need extra help the help they need.FFS, more than 50 years ago, students were paired up to help students learn. College students form study groups on their own. Students who struggle can make use of the many options for extra help.

So you're admitting I'm right then turning right around and dismissing it.

YES it is an issue for underfunded and unprepared schools to deal with a significant number of non-English speaking students. But they can and do do it with enough funding to hire ESL teachers. One of my friends became certified to teach adult English classes in his retirement.

If we are going to throw money at it we could have improved learning for everybody with those same resources.

For any given reasonable amount of resources you will get more education if you sort students by ability.

Sorting students according to perceived academic ability DOES help students sorted into higher level courses —and does the opposite for other students.

When all students are treated as having great academic and creative potential risk results in higher educational attainment for everyone.

No, that's not what we see.

Put a student into a higher class and they probably get left behind. Put them in a class with their peers and the teaching directed at the class benefits them. More learning for a given amount of resources.

No, actually you are not correct.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Yes, in many schools, students are sorted—either by choice or steered into courses that are more challenging or less challenging, according to students’ abilities, interests, and goals. Yes, teachers who have an entire class full of highly motivated, intelligent, hard working students can cover more subject material than a class with unmotivated students or those with additional challenges. Teachers are trained to do that as well, and to get students who need extra help the help they need.FFS, more than 50 years ago, students were paired up to help students learn. College students form study groups on their own. Students who struggle can make use of the many options for extra help.

So you're admitting I'm right then turning right around and dismissing it.

YES it is an issue for underfunded and unprepared schools to deal with a significant number of non-English speaking students. But they can and do do it with enough funding to hire ESL teachers. One of my friends became certified to teach adult English classes in his retirement.

If we are going to throw money at it we could have improved learning for everybody with those same resources.

For any given reasonable amount of resources you will get more education if you sort students by ability.

Sorting students according to perceived academic ability DOES help students sorted into higher level courses —and does the opposite for other students.

When all students are treated as having great academic and creative potential risk results in higher educational attainment for everyone.

No, that's not what we see.

Put a student into a higher class and they probably get left behind. Put them in a class with their peers and the teaching directed at the class benefits them. More learning for a given amount of resources.

No, actually you are not correct.

One state, IIRC Kansas threw an awful lot of money at it because of a judge's order. Did nothing.

 

[Toni]

Yes, in many schools, students are sorted—either by choice or steered into courses that are more challenging or less challenging, according to students’ abilities, interests, and goals. Yes, teachers who have an entire class full of highly motivated, intelligent, hard working students can cover more subject material than a class with unmotivated students or those with additional challenges. Teachers are trained to do that as well, and to get students who need extra help the help they need.FFS, more than 50 years ago, students were paired up to help students learn. College students form study groups on their own. Students who struggle can make use of the many options for extra help.

So you're admitting I'm right then turning right around and dismissing it.

YES it is an issue for underfunded and unprepared schools to deal with a significant number of non-English speaking students. But they can and do do it with enough funding to hire ESL teachers. One of my friends became certified to teach adult English classes in his retirement.

If we are going to throw money at it we could have improved learning for everybody with those same resources.

For any given reasonable amount of resources you will get more education if you sort students by ability.

Sorting students according to perceived academic ability DOES help students sorted into higher level courses —and does the opposite for other students.

When all students are treated as having great academic and creative potential risk results in higher educational attainment for everyone.

No, that's not what we see.

Put a student into a higher class and they probably get left behind. Put them in a class with their peers and the teaching directed at the class benefits them. More learning for a given amount of resources.

No, actually you are not correct.

One state, IIRC Kansas threw an awful lot of money at it because of a judge's order. Did nothing.

I’m not sure how your unsubstantiated allegation applies to the question of whether separating students by ability helps or arms student achievement.

 

[Swammerdami]

Also, away with this 'both sides' rubbish. It is the Republican Party who has shown an immense lack of civility and disregard of all political norms, since Trump gained ascendancy. I say this as a non-American looking in from outside.

It should be surprising (but somehow isn't) that so many foreigners have a clearer understanding of American politics than 50% of Americans have.

(Or is this due to sampling bias? If you surveyed typical (uninformed) Australians, would you get a majority judging Trumpists and the Democrats to be "same-same"?)

"Same-same" was a reasonable model 50 years ago. And even today one can find many crooked Democrats and many Republicans with integrity. But the complete surrender of the Republican Party to fraudsters, crooks, billionaires, racists, traitors and fascists has become so blatant that I can only shake my head in pity when we witness someone confident enough to post on a message-board yet so woefully oblivious to reality. These ignoramuses usually claim not to be FoxNews addicts, but how do they form their ideas?