Why YEC can seem plausible

[bilby]

....Well, I do know what a day is, and I know it's defined in terms of the apparent motion of the Sun. So before there was a Sun, there couldn't be a day. Not a literal day, or an ordinary day, or (in the absence of any other celestial objects) any other kind of day.

No in Genesis 1:3-5 it is defined by light and dark and the face of the earth being light and dark.

And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.​

YECs see no problem of there being night and day without the Sun....

And I don't see a problem with the length of days before the Sun being the same as the days after....

OK. And the light and dark periods that define a day (an ordinary or literal day), are caused by the rotation of the Earth relative to the Sun.

Daylight is sunlight. So what's causing day/night illumination cycles, before the existence of the Sun?

 

[excreationist]

Then is that a yes or a no to the question?

"You think depth can be measured by page count?"

I think it is correlated or at least people's impression of the depth can be related to page count.

....At the end, you're still just counting pages and offering that as an indicator of depth of knowlege. You have never graded high school reports after they discover the thesaurus, i see.

I didn't say depth of knowledge, I said depth. A made up book could have a lot of depth without any knowledge.

a YEC would get the impression that YEC geology is plausible.

that's the YEC's impression before they even touch the paper. Would it be compelling to anyone still on the fence, though?

Maybe just for Christians who are on the fence that aren't very knowledgeable about good counter-arguments to YEC (rather than straw men, etc).

 

[Keith&Co.]

"You think depth can be measured by page count?"

I think it is correlated

Then i think you're severely misinformed

or at least people's impression of the depth can be related to page count.

so, when i defend my thesis, i can just point to the number of pages it's written on.
Hopefully the board will consist of people who are impressed by that quality in my submitted work. You, or credible morons. Eithrr one.

I didn't say depth of knowledge, I said depth. A made up book could have a lot of depth without any knowledge.

in the context though, of the original question, it was about these experts' knowledge of and understanding of the science they were professing an education in. NOT just some believer fanfic about Genesis and Geology.
So, yeah, it's about their depth of (scientific) knowledge, not the intricacies of their bullshit rationale.

 

[Keith&Co.]

And I don't see a problem with the length of days before the Sun being the same as the days after....

but how would you know?

A 'day' is typically measured from the sun being at a certain point in the sky, such as overhead, or on the horizon, to returning to that same spot in the sky. Sundown to sundown, say, the Jewish Day.

How would a witness to Genesis measure the length of the day without seeing the sun reach sunset?

 

[excreationist]

.....How would a witness to Genesis measure the length of the day without seeing the sun reach sunset?

The human witnesses were said to have been created on day 6. The Sun was said to have been created on day 4. Though YECs would say that God was a witness to the events before the Sun was created....

The bigger problem is it implies the Earth was either experiencing day or night - but in reality it would be day or night simultaneously....

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Really, folks, how plausible is young earth creation? About as much as flat earth belief, I'd say.

Zero.

There are many YECs with science related degrees, including PhDs... (see post #454) I'm not aware of any flat earthers in that boat.

Relevant science degrees? They mustn't have understood the subject matter, no depth or consideration, just giving it lip service in order to get their degree, seeing the world through the filter of their faith and interpreting information according to their beliefs.

It's as Richard Feynman said, they know all the word labels and how the word labels are connected but they don't understand what the word labels mean.

 

[excreationist]

.....OK. And the light and dark periods that define a day (an ordinary or literal day), are caused by the rotation of the Earth relative to the Sun.

Daylight is sunlight. So what's causing day/night illumination cycles, before the existence of the Sun?

God created some light. Perhaps it is similar to Revelation 21:23 and 22:5. Apparently the purpose of not originally using the Sun was to show that the Sun shouldn't be worshipped....

 

[Keith&Co.]

.....How would a witness to Genesis measure the length of the day without seeing the sun reach sunset?

The human witnesses were said to have been created on day 6. The Sun was said to have been created on day 4. Though YECs would say that God was a witness to the events before the Sun was created....

So, still have no answer to how they define day as they use it to describe the events of The First Day.
Which was a normal day...excdpt that's not possible.

A 'normal' day now is 86,400.002 seconds. It can vary by several milliseconds plus or minus each day.
Length of daylight in one of those periods varies based on latitude of the observer and the Earth's position in its orbit around the sun.

There is no 'normal' day without the sun.

 

[bilby]

.....OK. And the light and dark periods that define a day (an ordinary or literal day), are caused by the rotation of the Earth relative to the Sun.

Daylight is sunlight. So what's causing day/night illumination cycles, before the existence of the Sun?

God created some light. Perhaps it is similar to Revelation 21:23 and 22:5. Apparently the purpose of not originally using the Sun was to show that the Sun shouldn't be worshipped....

But if he's getting light and day/night cycles without the Sun, why have a Sun at all? Particularly if he's worried that people might start worshipping it - worshipping other gods seems to be a major preoccupation of the god of Genesis, who is very obviously a polytheist with a serious hatred for humans worshipping any of the other gods, or attempting to become "like us", by attaining godlike powers of their own.

 

[excreationist]

@Keith&Co.
@bilby

From my first post:

There is no need to give counter-arguments for these things - I am already aware of that. And creationists have counter-counter-arguments for just about everything... even regarding the main reason I gave up on YEC, the Green River Formation.

Edit: I don't see the point in me trying to keep on trying to defend the YEC point of view....

 

[Keith&Co.]

@Keith&Co.
@bilby

From my first post:

There is no need to give counter-arguments for these things - I am already aware of that. And creationists have counter-counter-arguments for just about everything... even regarding the main reason I gave up on YEC, the Green River Formation.

Edit: I don't see the point in me trying to keep on trying to defend the YEC point of view....

We're not asking you to defend theif statements, defend yours.
You present thgem as knowledgeable scientists with degrees and big many-paged papers.
But they do not, and in my opinion cannot, define the Day they refer to, and depend on, in any meaningful way. Except an appeal to tribal knowledge.

This is not how scientists present theories.

 

[excreationist]

....So, still have no answer to how they define day as they use it to describe the events of The First Day.
Which was a normal day...except that's not possible.

A 'normal' day now is 86,400.002 seconds. It can vary by several milliseconds plus or minus each day.
Length of daylight in one of those periods varies based on latitude of the observer and the Earth's position in its orbit around the sun.

There is no 'normal' day without the sun.

I don't see it being a major contradiction if there was an initial light source and then later having the Sun as the light source (while also creating the Moon and stars)....

A day is roughly the time for the Earth to revolve on its axis... and the day and night is defined by the light and the dark - it doesn't necessarily have to be an identical number of milliseconds....

 

[excreationist]

We're not asking you to defend theif statements, defend yours.
You present thgem as knowledgeable scientists with degrees and big many-paged papers.

The 1100 page geology book is a book for laypeople, not a "paper". They do have degrees and I just mean they appear knowledgeable, not necessarily with factual knowledge.

But they do not, and in my opinion cannot, define the Day they refer to, and depend on, in any meaningful way. Except an appeal to tribal knowledge.

This is not how scientists present theories.

It is about the beliefs of their YEC audiences... it doesn't necessarily have to be genuine science.

 

[DBT]

Relevant science degrees? They mustn't have understood the subject matter, no depth or consideration, just giving it lip service in order to get their degree, seeing the world through the filter of their faith and interpreting information according to their beliefs.

It's as Richard Feynman said, they know all the word labels and how the word labels are connected but they don't understand what the word labels mean.

That's how it looks with Fundamentalists of any persuasion. The primary goal appears to be: cling to the faith. But of course, faith closes the mind to other possibilities.

 

[Learner]

Folks! Noah didn't design the ark himself you know?

Then why didn't he use an ark of steel? Wooden ships of that size are structurally impossible, but very large steel ships are commonplace today, and are extremely robust.

Wood was sufficient enough and the structures would obviously have to be proportionately bigger, with much thicker joints and cross-piece supports and so on. We're not talking of lesser proportions (standard manufacturing) as in Ken Hams ark, which is a beauty anyway.

Wood is strong enough, when cut in the right proportion and with the right design, from the right trees - purposely in mind to float as a barge and NOT as a sailing ship. Gilgamesh's also agrees with the barge-like structure.


Cutting by hand ("edit: 5 man crew not 4 as previously posted)

A nuclear powered steel ship, with engines that can run for many years without refuelling, thousands of tonnes of cargo capacity, and plenty of electricity for running automated systems to supply feed to the cargo and remove their waste, would have been a far superior solution over a wooden ship.

Yes indeed, although the wooden vessel was suffiecient & successful enough (if you're going by the bible account).

And if Noah didn't do the design work, why have him do the manufacturing? God could easily have given him such a ship, and trained his family to operate it.

That is an idea, but I suppose ... to know one's own vessel, how much more knowing it, when you build it yourself! Every little nail, joint, plank and stress-points etc..

I know it sounds completely ridiculous; But really, it's still less ridiculous than a wooden boat in excess of 120m LWL. The steel ship I describe is physically possible, while the wooden boat described by the Bible is not.

Like previously mentioned, cut in the correct proportion and with the right design (God's design in this case), I believe its quite plausible.

 

[Keith&Co.]

A day is roughly the time for the Earth to revolve on its axis... and the day and night is defined by the light and the dark -

You just offered two different definitions of 'day.' In one sentence.

 

[Elixir]

View attachment 34447
Yes indeed, although the wooden vessel was suffiecient & successful enough (if you're going by the bible account).

I suppose they had wooden saws too?

 

[ideologyhunter]

A wonder story from the literature of ancient Palestine...a moral message that rationalizes a love god subjecting his human creations to an agonizing death, every child, infant, and fetus included...a main character who, if the narrative was pitched in 2021, would have a birth year of 1421, and thus could have watched Joan of Arc being ignited when he was a boy of ten...all the wild creatures appearing in a parade of twos (or seven or fourteen, for the 'clean' animals)...then the Holy Murder Flood....
And this is somehow historical, for people today? How much mythology have you read?
Fuck, I gotta go vacuum and get the newspapers recycled.

 

[Bronzeage]

....Time spans have to be telescoped because all of this has to fit into 5 or 6 thousand years.

Note they say 6000 years.... never less than that.

This video gives a good reason to add on 650 years:
[video=youtube;VI1yRTC6kGE[/video]

But top YECs are normally against that because it says that the KJV isn't faithful to some early manuscripts....

I have met Creationists who insisted the telescoping time scale accounted for the geological evidence of a very old Earth.

Creationists do not subject their hypotheses to peer review.

 

[excreationist]

A day is roughly the time for the Earth to revolve on its axis... and the day and night is defined by the light and the dark -

You just offered two different definitions of 'day.' In one sentence.

The first "day" goes for about 24 hours. The second "day" is from Genesis 1:5 and means the light part of the day (as opposed to "night").