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Working out/Testosterone Levels/Therapy/Steroids/Thoughts?

Godless Raven

Member
Joined
Oct 12, 2006
Messages
296
Location
Vulgaria - Canada
Basic Beliefs
Secular Humanist
Wasn't sure what to title this thread, where to place it or whether or not I should really post it, but I've made some major changes in my life in the last 2 months and I need to get it off my chest and would be interested in any thoughts/comments/questions anyone has. I'm going to give you a bunch of background info about my experience with the topic (some of the info I've shared over the years on FRDB, some I have never shared with anyone). I'm open to any thoughts or opinions and I expect some will have a challenge understanding where I'm coming from.

- - - Updated - - -

Here goes...

I'm 43 years old. I've always been a big person, I'm around 6'5, weigh anywhere from 250-275lbs over the past 15 years. I've enjoyed the fuck out of being bigger and naturally stronger than other people. I've never taken advantage of it and bullied small people, but it's meant certain advantages that are hard to explain...little things...like never being picked last for physical sports (regardless of a lack of talent in many cases :D), being asked to reach for things, small psychological advantages (including a slight advantage in job interviews and other ridiculous situations).

On the down side...I can also carry a high body fat content very easily if I don't watch diet and don't work out. I can stay strong and big but it...don't look good...and it don't feel great. Yet, for many years through my life I've cruised like that too. But then there were other times...for example:

Ages 19-23 I became very serious about power lifting and physique building. I was obsessed like a machine. I worked out with weights 6 days a week, and did cardio 7 days a week. At one point, I went almost 2 months with less than 100g of carbs a day, many days with zero all to lose the last bits of body fat I had. But...even with all my natural advantages and a pretty decent frame for bodybuilding...I could not look anything like the bodybuilders I was idolizing at the time. I didn't realize it at the time, but a almost every single one of my heroes were taking massive amounts of performance enhancing drugs to get the look they had.

At the age of 21 I was in the best shape I'd ever attained. I weighed 245lbs and had about 9-10% body fat. I started working in security at a casino in its first year and I was hired along with about 12 other big meatheads. There were 3 or 4 guys that were naturally bigger than me. There were power lifters (provincially ranked ones), body builders (with way better physiques than me) and a bunch of bouncer types that worked out a lot. We would often go to a 24 gym together after shifts in groups of 4-6. I was blown away. Over half the guys could out lift me, had better stamina and could work out for several hours where I was burned out after 1-2. Their workouts were more intense. Their results...superior.

I started getting close with two of these guys, probably the two strongest in the group...one was a favorite to win his class in powerlifting that year and possibly set some records (I'll call him Paul). The other was an bodybuilder who prided himself in being completely drug free and competitive strength wise with steroid users (I'll call him Darren). Paul revealed to me that he was taking anabolics and other drugs to enhance his abilities and he had been for about 3 years. (He also went bald in his early 20's and looked like he was 35 but that's another story). He told me he could get me a variety of steroids if I was interested. I told him no. Secretly, I thought about it...a lot. Darren would also talk to me about drugs...he was constantly tempted with them at the gym...he felt enormous pressure to represent the drug free lifters but saw guys with less talent surpass him in record time. He also told me if I ever decided I wanted to try them, he could get them for me.

Months went by, I worked out with these two and others and my progression was slowing down significantly...it appeared I'd flat lined with my natural talents. (Or looking back...I convinced myself of this regardless of how true it was) and I got 200 dianabol pills 5mg's each. I knew approximately how to "cycle" them, but I had zero education or plan for how to return my natural testosterone back to normal after using or what side effects might happen. The results were mind blowing. In 2 months I went from 245lbs to 265lbs and couldn't fit most of my clothes anymore. My strength went through the roof. I got big so fast I remember horrible pain in the skin of my arms because it couldn't expand fast enough. There were side effects. Nose bleeds, blood pressure up, near the end of month two minor erectile dysfunction (when at that age I could keep a hard on for an hour easily before) and my blood started getting very dark due to strain on my organs. I stopped taking them and continued lifting. I was able to keep about 5lbs of muscle after water and fat were reduced and some of the gains went away without the added steroids.

Unfortunately...during that time...I got so many gawd damned compliments and had surpassed nearly all my coworkers (minus Paul, Darren and one other guy) in lifts...I was addicted. I knew I'd never be a competitive bodybuilder..that's not why I was doing it...I wanted to be big and strong...that's it. Well...after a few months, most of that was gone along with the drugs, so I decided to take more risks...through Darren I ordered vials of intramuscular steroids (testosterone, equipoise - which is for horses!) and some proper med's to support my natural testosterone after cycles as well as something to prevent mass production of estrogen during cycle. But I was now injecting myself with oils without any clue what I was doing. I researched what I could (without the internet) and just did it.

I won't go in to details on this post, but I nearly killed myself with my first injection...no big deal. After that it went better, but after 2 months I'd developed abscesses in my glutes, backne, and more nose bleeds. My technique with the injections was horrible in retrospect, but I just had no clue what I was doing. My physique transformation was mind blowing and easily beat what I'd achieved with my first experimentation. I looked great and I was so strong I felt like a superhuman. Then my dad caught me. Found the gear and needles in my room. He was so hurt and upset and angry he wanted to kick me out. He was convinced it was heroin!!! When I told him what it really was, he was relieved but at the same time nearly as horrified. I promised to quit and I did. I also got out of weight training about 6 months later.

Okay...so fast forward to age 27. I'm living with my girlfriend (now my wife) and I decided I want to get back in to weight training again. She'd seen photos and I liked to talk about it, so she encouraged it. Went out and bought me $1500 worth of gym equipment as a surprise!!!! I trained for 2 years. No drugs, only legal supplements and good food. I started to get in to decent shape. When I started though, I was like 260lbs with at least 20% body fat which looked awful. After 2 years, I was around 235lbs (the lightest I'd been since aged 17) and was actually kinda skinny for the first and only time in my life. Again I got so many compliments (and female coworkers desperately seeking weight loss advice to the point where I started an lunch group to discuss and support them lol). I got addicted again.

Then I had a really bad slip and fall off of the roof of our house while cleaning eavesdroughs. I landed on my back/neck and it took me half a decade of therapy to get to the point where I could comfortably grocery shop without pain meds. weight training was done. I got so down on myself physically I got fatter than last time. About 270lbs with 99.9% bodyfat :D I was really depressed about it, but eventually just gave up and didn't care.

Fast forward to 2 years ago. I tried starting it up again on 3 occasions but unlike the rest of my life I wasn't strong the same way anymore. Eventually that natural gift diminished. So slow I hadn't really noticed. I assumed, if I wanted to, on call I could be as strong as a moose. I was wrong. One thing I didn't mention, is growing up I had an uncanny ability to heal, both from intense work outs but also from serious injury. I could take it easy lifting weights for a couple of weeks then jump right back in to heavy weights. Well...that's all gone now. Fucking all of it. If I lift, I can't lift heavy. If I have a light intensity work out, my muscles hurt for days and my motivation is ziltch.

My favorite sport is mixed martial arts and two years ago there was enormous discussion and controversy about something called TRT (Testosterone Replacement Therapy) in the sport. This is therapy prescribed by a doctor to give a patient regular testosterone to add to their body's lack of natural production. The results in the MMA fighters using TRT was amazing. Their physiques never looked better. 40 year olds were winning titles. Things called "Wellness Clinics" and "Anti-aging Clinics" started popping up all over the US using testosterone and Human Growth Hormone Therapy as anti-aging therapy. This had already been going on across Europe for decades.

Canada, where I'm from has next to none of this. The education on TRT and GH therapy is next to zero. Most doctors think "Ben Johnson" when they hear "steroids". There does appear to be an exception in Calgary, where they do have a couple of these clinics.

I spent many many hours this last two years researching the therapy. Everything from the exact meds used, the types of shots, the proper way to do them, combating side effects etc etc hoping one day my province would allow the therapy.

There's one other issue I haven't mentioned...my wife knows I used anabolics in my 20's and she had a physically/psycholically abusive bouncer ex and told me if I ever did them again, she'd leave me...no questions asked. So there's that.

Well...about 3 months ago something happened that shook me and changed me in ways that are hard to articulate. I was driving home from picking my wife up from work in heavy traffic. At one point, the vehicle in front of me dropped its speed by about 15mph for no apparent reason. My vehicle caught up to him and he hit his breaks as a "back off" warning. We were approaching a traffic light that was going to be changing soon and I couldn't figure out why this guy was slowing down so much since he wasn't turning. He slowed down even more. Now I had a line up of vehicles riding up my tail, horns honking etc. We got through the light and this guy slowed down to around 5-10mph barely passed an idle. more traffic built up behind us and he slowed own to idle speed. The traffic was so heavy going both ways there was no way to pass, everyone was stuck behind this idiot.

I just repeatedly shook my head at him as he stared/glared at me in his side mirror and rear view mirror. Finally traffic coming the other way opened up and I floored it in an attempt to pass him. He floored it in his car and attempted to drive me in to oncoming traffic and swerved at my vehicle a couple of times. My wife began recording this with her cell phone. He then slammed on his breaks and parked diagonal blocking traffic in both directions and preventing me from leaving the situation and jumped out of his car. I could tell my wife was scared. She's never been scared with me anywhere. I always felt like she felt safe with me in any scenario...not this one. The guy was about 22-25ish. He was in good shape. He appeared to be raging way beyond anything appropriate for what had just happened and...he tried opening my car door...I assume to try drag me out of the car.

I should say...if this were 10 years ago...20 years ago...25 years ago...I would have been out of the car before he made it to mine and would have beat the fucking shit out of him for trying to kill me playing road games. But I didn't get out. Something inside told me it was potentially dangerous if I did. So I told him through the window "get back in your car or your day is going to get a lot worse" and he kept screaming...actually making himself more and more angry. He wouldn't leave. Cars were still all bumper to bumper trying to figure out what was going on. My wife motioned to him that she was recording him and he mumbled something and told her to fuck off. At that point, I took off my seat belt. My concern/fear left me and I was ready to confront him. I just can't let someone openly disrespect the love of my life like that.

Yet...I didn't get out. I couldn't explain it. It was like I was paralyzed with fear and felt zero confidence in my physical ability to protect myself or my family. This devastated me. I didn't show it outwardly, but inside, it affected me in unexpected ways. I couldn't sleep at night, I replayed the scenario a billion times trying to end it differently. But nothing. On the way home after the incident my wife said "he's lucky I wouldn't let you out of the car or you'd have smashed him". I wasn't sure if she believed it. I knew she thought I believed it and had no idea that I was second guessing myself.

So...a month of that went by, where I haunted myself with the realization that my feeling of being strong and safe were a mirage, a facade. That was the old me, this was...the OLD me. I knew throughout my life (because of blood work and my behavior) that I had a fairly high testosterone level. I also knew that through nature this declines every year after around the age of 25-30 in males and continues until death. I knew it would assist in recovery times working out, stamina, strength, confidence, as well as huge list of other functions testosterone plays in the male body. I decided I was going to get a hold of a theraputic amount of testosterone, the same exact type the wellness clinics use, and apply that amount to myself to see how it affected me. I acquired said products (this is, it goes without saying, all hypothetical and for educational purposes, I would never acquire any of these things). I gave myself my first dose. Nobody on the planet but me knew I did this.

Within a week I started having dry heaves and they got progressively worse. I don't like lying or keeping secrets from my wife. She trusts me 100%, and I was doing something I had reason to believe would really, really upset her and would get me in serious hot water...possibly even effecting our relationship...WTF WAS I DOING!??

It got to the point where she noticed and suggested I go to the doctor.

Anyway...I should add, I had struggled through workouts from the night the incident happened with road rager in traffic, same results, lots of pain and not much more. So...the first sign of effect was on day 2...out of nowhere I got an erection like nothing I'd seen since my teens! :eek: I couldn't believe it, but thought it was pretty freaking awesome. Unfortunately, I couldn't really share that with my wife, since...for other reasons, our sex life has been nearly non-existent for a decade. So I kept that result to myself. My workouts still hurt like a sonofabitch and of course, you don't get muscles overnight. Even with chemical assistance.

By the end of week one, I was able to add 20 min of cardio daily to my routine and noticed I wasn't feeling as tired and weirdly my lungs were taking in more air than normal. By the end of week two I started noticing some other changes...erections continued throughout this time and by the end of week 2 I would do 30-40 min of cardio, get off the machine and my legs would instantly feel like they hadn't worked out at all. I could get back on and it was like I was starting new. I'd never felt that in my life. Not even in my 20's with my chemical experiments. The dry heaves continued.

- - - Updated - - -

So one night, I confessed to my wife. I told her there was a reason for the dry heaves, I'd been keeping something from her and that I felt that horrible. I apologized profusely before realizing I hadn't said what it was I was feeling so bad for. Then I told her "this isn't steroids, but it's enough like it that I am worried you'll feel the same and not want me around any more". I told her about some of my body changes and how I was starting to feel huge surges of energy that I hadn't found before.

We talked for 2 straight hours. She asked what my goal was, how I was doing it, the legalities, the physical risks, the benefits. She asked me to show her my research including administration of the drugs and how to properly monitor effects. I did. I confessed to her that for the first time in my life age was really bothering me. That I was feeling depressed and I confided in her how the road rage incident made me feel as "a man".

I figured...at best, she'd tell me to quit and I'd be in the dog house majorly for a long time. She completely shocked me and told me after seeing everything was under control and relatively risk free that she supported me 100%. You can never know how much those words meant to me that day. It took an ENORMOUS weight from my shoulders and finally it meant I could try combat the effects of aging and change my body to what I want it to be. To take it to the limits it can go and then some.

So it's been a couple of months. I forgot to mention but the time of the road rage incident I had reached a dangerous point weight wise and was shocked when I weighed in at 298lbs (estimated body fat 125%). So here I am two months later. The TRT has continued to have benefits on a near daily basis. I can run cardio as long as I want, twice a day if I feel like it. I clean up around the house more and have energy to do tons of things I would have passed on. My diet is clean, REALLY clean. I don't drink alcohol at all. I stopped smoking marijuana (I'd been using daily for 15 years). I have been able to drop an anti-depressant/painkiller med I've been on since my fall and have never felt happier or more pain free! My back and neck are more flexible than I can ever recall. My temper? Anger? Nearly non-existent. My mood in general has been so elevated and my confidence level has been so much higher for the first time in my life, I don't get stressed in traffic!

And...and this is a BIG and...somehow, through all of this, partially by coincidence, my wife had already decided emotionally she wanted the two of us to try be intimate again and try to do it somewhat regularly (I'm guessing once a month, maybe). Since I've been open with her and she's seen my body transformation taking place...we have been fucking, sucking like teenagers experimenting. It's not just the ability to have erections when I want, for as long as I want now...it's something I can't quite explain...growing up I was always very attracted to women, but there were certain things I knew my friends really liked that I did not get turned on by...for example "the scent of a woman" as Pacino called it. Never got it...in fact often was turned off by it. Now...I swear, I can smell my wife's coochie upwind from 50 yards away and it's the most intoxicating thing I've ever experienced. I feel like a hunter when I see her, like I'm a lion in the Savannah and she's some poor unsuspecting gazel that has no idea. I've explained this to her and it seems to excite her so...BONUS! There's other things too...going down on her. I've gone down on lots of girls in my life, but never really got anything out of it myself...I knew guys that did, and always thought that was weird. Now...I could do it for 10 hours straight and still not get enough. I'm addicted to everything...even just touching her skin feels like touching a partners skin for the first time when you're younger and dating.

Oh yeah...and weight training? I went from struggling with a 150lbs bench press (I used to be able to do 300lbs without working out) to being able to pump out 275lbs for 12 reps easily. I've had to buy new weight plates every 3 or 4 days since this started. Even my connective tissues seem to be healing slightly faster than normal.

And that guy from the road rage incident? Couldn't care less. If I saw him tomorrow, I wouldn't look twice. If he ever tried dragging me out of his car again...he might have a different experience, but other than that...it's done as far as I'm concerned. I'm too high on life to care about stupid shit like that.

So here's the thing...I don't ever want to stop. I don't ever want to go back to feeling the way I did. The only thing I'd like to do is possibly start doing HGH therapy in a few years when it's more practical financially.

I do really want to emphasize I'm not promoting anyone else do what I do (nor am I discouraging it).

Thoughts/suggestions/concerns/questions? :thinking:
 
It's been a little over a week since I posted this...since then, I've continued a body transformation at a ridiculously accelerated rate. I am now able to work out once, sometimes twice a day (if I work different body parts) and I can do cardio once or twice too, if I feel like it. My metabolism is on fire. The other night, I went to bed and woke up 4.5 lbs lighter with a notable size difference around my waist. I continue eating very clean with a few cheat meals and snacks when I feel I really need it. My strength continues to accelerate. I am still buying more weights to add to what I have because I can set new personal best records every week. I just had more blood work done with my doctor and will see results next week. I"m waking up with more energy than I did when I was 20 :D My sex drive continues to grow and I can do it 2-3 times a day easily if I wish. I have been offered marijuana a few times this week and turned it down each time with no regrets. I'm attempting a 315lbs bench press this evening...if all goes well I'll be able to do it for 4-6 reps.
 
All I am going to say on this subject is from the point of view of a life long gym rat.

Steroids have a place in rehabilitation therapy, to help repair injured tissue. Hormone therapy has a place in maintaining a healthy body.

When a real doctor, who has all the facts and access to all test results writes a prescription for either steroids or hormones, it's a fine thing.

I have seen many cases of self medication and amateur prescription writers, which led to very unpleasant results. That part about "I can smell my wife's coochie upwind from 50 yards away," I've heard that before. That's all in your head. Next, you be certain the guy in the car ahead of you is trying to make you late for work and you need to talk to him about it.

I've given this little sermon before and no has ever taken heed. Eventually something tears or breaks, or they end up explaining their training regimen to their lawyer.
 
Congrats on wanting to turn your life around.

My only suggestion would be to take all this to a medical professional and continue the therapy in the appropriate manner. It's obviously doing you good, and with a medical professional on your side, side effects should be limited.
 
All I am going to say on this subject is from the point of view of a life long gym rat.

Steroids have a place in rehabilitation therapy, to help repair injured tissue. Hormone therapy has a place in maintaining a healthy body.

When a real doctor, who has all the facts and access to all test results writes a prescription for either steroids or hormones, it's a fine thing.

I have seen many cases of self medication and amateur prescription writers, which led to very unpleasant results. That part about "I can smell my wife's coochie upwind from 50 yards away," I've heard that before. That's all in your head. Next, you be certain the guy in the car ahead of you is trying to make you late for work and you need to talk to him about it.

I've given this little sermon before and no has ever taken heed. Eventually something tears or breaks, or they end up explaining their training regimen to their lawyer.

Well, I pretty much agree with a lot of what you are saying. I also think steroids have a place in rehabilitation therapy...considering all it's done for burn victims, people that have no appetite due to disease, growth deficiencies, testosterone deficiency etc.

As far as what I can smell or sense, you could be right...it could be in my head...but I would find that very surprising considering it was not something I expected, thought was possible or was looking to attain...yet it appears to have happened. If it's in my head...my body is physiologically and mentally unable to tell the difference...so...there's no difference from my stand point.

When you talk about self medicating and amateur prescription writers...we can also agree to an extent. I don't think it's a good idea in general. Yet, I know many people who self medicate every day and are probably doing better than when they didn't. I don't necessarily mean with hormone therapy. But it can also be a huge disaster.

I don't see you're leap from my sense of smell to road rage. That's a leap. Hormones don't make you pound peoples heads in like you're out of control anymore than alcohol does. If you're prone to being violent in traffic, yeah, you might have it in your head that you're the Hulk and you want to smash everyone out. I've met one person like that who used hormones and he was like that before and after them too. For me, it appears to have had quite the opposite affect. I have always been very stressed in traffic. Not just in a vehicle, but in every facet in my life I currently feel calm, confident and in control. I've literally noticed I frown significantly less and smile far more. My mood in general is just incredible.

You're right...reading your opinion isn't going to convince me to stop. I made a well informed choice when I decided to do this and I assume all the risks. I appreciate your comments though, as well as anyone else, because I do value all of your experiences and thoughts on a variety of subjects and I was curious to see how some of you feel about the topic and what I'm doing. At this point, the only things that would cause me to stop would be a serious medical situation (issues with organs) or if it had a profound negative affect on my closest relationships.

What I have done is gone to my doctor, explained what I am doing, explained how I've felt and he's sent me for full blood work (something I should have done before I started to have a good starting point, but sooner is better than later). He's agreed to test me every 2-4 weeks to monitor hormone levels and toxicity in my organs. If they are all good to go, I see no reason to stop. The health benefits have way out weighted the risks to date.


Question for you Bronze (and anyone else): If you could (without physical risks) reverse time and feel like you did when you were 20, until you die...would you? Obviously we're not talking straight TRT because their are risks. If there was an actual fountain of youth, would you jump at the chance? Or would you prefer to feel the natural route of a human including all that comes with aging?

I personally, would not hesitate. If science can progressively simulate a fountain of youth, I'm going for it. If there are risks, I'd become to degrees, less likely to go for it.

Then you can get to a point where you might say "If you could feel young as long as you live, would you be willing to take a year off your life?" and progressively increase it to 5 years, 10 years, etc. And I am somewhere in that arena. If I could feel 20 again for the next 30-35 years, I'd gladly eliminate 1-5 off the end of my life. A lot of people might turn that down and think it's crazy, but they would have no problem drinking regularly and taking 10 off or smoking or doing other risky things that increase the chances they'll die younger whether it's for adrenaline rush or because they'd just rather drink than live longer. I personally try to avoid doing those types of things, and would prefer to do it in the first scenario.
 
Congrats on wanting to turn your life around.

My only suggestion would be to take all this to a medical professional and continue the therapy in the appropriate manner. It's obviously doing you good, and with a medical professional on your side, side effects should be limited.

Why thanks! :D

Yeah, good advice. Something I should have done earlier, but I took my time beating around the topic because I like my current doctor and I was concerned he'd tell me to go find someone else, but he was more concerned I was administering it safely, which I was/am.

I do feel much better knowing he's going to look at my blood work and let me know early if anything goes bad. If for some reason my liver suddenly has 10x the enzymes it's supposed to, I'm going to get the fuck off of it and go back to aging ungracefully ;)
 
Congrats on wanting to turn your life around.

My only suggestion would be to take all this to a medical professional and continue the therapy in the appropriate manner. It's obviously doing you good, and with a medical professional on your side, side effects should be limited.

Why thanks! :D

Yeah, good advice. Something I should have done earlier, but I took my time beating around the topic because I like my current doctor and I was concerned he'd tell me to go find someone else, but he was more concerned I was administering it safely, which I was/am.

I do feel much better knowing he's going to look at my blood work and let me know early if anything goes bad. If for some reason my liver suddenly has 10x the enzymes it's supposed to, I'm going to get the fuck off of it and go back to aging ungracefully ;)

Glad to hear your GP knows. :D And yes, when you find out your liver point are 10 times what they should be? :eek:

Keep well. :D
 
Godless,

I read you OP with great interest and have seriously considered TRT to combat the effects of aging. Most 62 year olds don't do pull-ups and chin-ups anymore or try to sprint up hillsides or work out with dumbells. But I do. It's because I've always taken pride in having more muscle and definition than the next guy. We human males probably aren't much different than males of other species when it comes to the dominance game, though some would simply call it vanity. But vanity can keep a person very healthy so kudos to vanity. And I certainly wish you all the best.

Not being a doctor I think you are doing the right thing by getting tested for side effects. Not being a doctor also makes me wonder if you do not have a condition called cyclothymia.

Hypomanic symptoms

Signs and symptoms of the highs of cyclothymia may include:
•An exaggerated feeling of happiness or well-being (euphoria)
•Extreme optimism
•Inflated self-esteem
•Talking more than usual
•Poor judgment that can result in risky behavior or unwise choices
•Racing thoughts
•Irritable or agitated behavior
•Excessive physical activity
•Increased drive to perform or achieve goals (sexual, work related or social)
•Decreased need for sleep
•Tendency to be easily distracted
•Inability to concentrate

Depressive symptoms

Signs and symptoms of the lows of cyclothymia may include:
•Feeling sad, hopeless or empty
•Tearfulness
•Irritability, especially in children and teenagers
•Loss of interest in activities once considered enjoyable
•Changes in weight
•Feelings of worthlessness or guilt
•Sleep problems
•Restlessness
•Fatigue or feeling slowed down
•Problems concentrating
•Thinking of death or suicide
I've only recently self-diagnosed because I certainly have all the symptoms. But I don't think people who have awareness of their condition need any medications whatsoever. It's something they simply have to manage.

Like you I don't want to be alive for the sake of being alive. My take on aging is that I want to be healthy and able until the time I drop dead. Living out of a wheelchair or nursing home is not my thing. Same for all the males in my family. Medical professionals can certainly help us extend our lives but we shouldn't allow them to extend our death and dying, which is what happens in millions of cases. It's a personal choice.

Here's that cyclothymia link if you're interested.

Cyclothymia

And you have a great wife.
 
All I am going to say on this subject is from the point of view of a life long gym rat.

Steroids have a place in rehabilitation therapy, to help repair injured tissue. Hormone therapy has a place in maintaining a healthy body.

When a real doctor, who has all the facts and access to all test results writes a prescription for either steroids or hormones, it's a fine thing.

I have seen many cases of self medication and amateur prescription writers, which led to very unpleasant results. That part about "I can smell my wife's coochie upwind from 50 yards away," I've heard that before. That's all in your head. Next, you be certain the guy in the car ahead of you is trying to make you late for work and you need to talk to him about it.

I've given this little sermon before and no has ever taken heed. Eventually something tears or breaks, or they end up explaining their training regimen to their lawyer.

Well, I pretty much agree with a lot of what you are saying. I also think steroids have a place in rehabilitation therapy...considering all it's done for burn victims, people that have no appetite due to disease, growth deficiencies, testosterone deficiency etc.

....

I speak from experience and I allow others may have different experiences. My observations are of other people, not myself.

As for the fountain of youth elixir, I've been offered that one and decided against it.
 
Hi GR, I see the attraction, but also think you are correct when you identify it as an addiction.

Sounds like life is good, the only thing I would ask you to add is, regardless of the blood test results, get an appointment with a sports doctor, someone who treats high level athletes. They will know the long term outlook with more precision.

It's good to see you happy again.
 
Quick update:

I'm eating more calories every day as of recent...like in the last week. I've been eating strict healthy/clean 85% of the time, but recently I've been allowing myself a few treats now and then. Up until this change I had challenges eating because my stomach seemed to have shrank considerably once I started eating clean 2 months ago. Not a problem now. For example, this Friday, I had a 20oz Rib Steak at the Keg (I mainly eat Chicken, Turkey, Salmon, Pickerel now, so red meat was a treat). I ordered grilled veggies as a side and had no other form of starch or food. I drank water. Then I ate again 4 hours later that night. When I woke up my wife and I went to a breakfast buffet where I loaded up on a tasty chirizo skillet with red potatoes, sunny side eggs, grilled veggies, cheese, onions that was amazing! I had 12oz of skimmed milk, 24 oz OJ. Ate three more times that day and Sunday I woke up 4 lbs lighter than Friday and I can see separation in my bicep, quad, calves and triceps that I can't recall seeing since I was probably 25-26 years old. My body is more vascular, not just arms (because I used to get that fairly quick when I used to work out from a "pump") but even in my calves. They've split and become so defined I can see veins in them for the first time ever.

As far as work outs go, I am lifting heavier every single time I work out and now instead of increasing by 10-15lbs I'm skipping to 25lb-35lbs new bests. My rate of recovery is way beyond what I can recall as a teenager! I can do cardio for 1 hour straight including a full run on the treadmill for at least 30 min of that if not more, and I can often do two sessions in 24 hours, IF I don't work out that day.

My family had dinner with close family friends who are elderly and both with recent broken bone injuries. My son and I moved a bunch of furniture around for them and I was manhandling couches and old school heavy dressers like they were playdoh.

Psychologically, I feel amazing. Every day has been as good as the last or even a little better. It's not like everything in my life is going great right now, I'm having multiple things going on that are definitely stressful. Things that would have had me with a twisted stomach stressed to the gills. I just don't react the same way when these things happen as of recent. Instead, I've just been thinking "okay...well, how do I make this better? next" and the results have been pretty fricken good so far. I would like to think I could have trained or conditioned myself to react this way under stress (I've been trying for a long time) but I've never had results like this.

Physiologically, I'm sharing a lot of really positive experiences I'm having, but I do want to make sure that I am completely honest with all of you - particularly if someone reading this is even considering my path...there are things to be aware of with Testosterone application (I'm speaking specifically for males here).

Here are things I've experienced you should know of in advanced

1. Elevated heart rate. This can happen to some people. I've experienced it twice, for relatively short periods of time (less than a minute). But...when I get horny now, my heart rate races and I can feel blood flowing through my throat, my wife said a vein beats in both my ankles and my left temple when I'm feeling frisky now. Luckily, she considers this a turn on when we're at dinner and she can see my desire for her is so primal it visible ffs. But..if you have heart concerns, be forewarned.

2. Acne - This mainly applies to someone who is genetically prone. I've only had 3 zits, so I'm lucky. If you had a lot as a teen, be forewarned, this could fuck your entire back and face up...google it.

3. RRHE's - Or Random Rock Hard Erections. And I mean rock. I had one last almost 3 hours and I probably could have jack hammered concrete that day. This may be a plus for some...not so much when you're at work doing presentations.

4. Sleep issues - Can go either way. I've experienced both. There was a period of about 5 days where I needed 12-14 hours of sleep a day, and then for a few days later I couldn't sleep for more than 2. It's balanced out now and I have had no noticeable issues for over a week.

5. Tendon/bone strength increase vs muscle strength increase - I believe Bronze knows exactly what I'm talking about. If you take the route he has and train your entire life, your connective tissue and bone have time to catch up to your muscle strength (which is always faster). When you take something that increases muscle strength and mass at an accelerated rate, bone and connective tissue are way behind and it's easy to get serious injuries (this did happen to me in my 20's, 4 serious injuries) I've had zero injuries since this started. My connective tissue seems to be getting strong quite fast and the recovery rate has been phenomenal. Of course, I realize this will eventually give and I will have to taper what I do fairly soon to avoid this happening.

On the other hand...every morning I look down at my waist and it's visibly smaller. :D

On the plus side:

1. Energy through the roof on tap anytime I want it.

2. Sex drive through the roof, anytime I want it.

3. Physically stronger every week.

4. Previous chronic back/neck injury that's diminished and limited me for the last quarter of my life is virtually gone. I work out my back and neck regularly and my previous limitations in motion while still there somewhat, are so improved it's better than I could have hoped for. I believe the hot stone massage therapy I've been getting every 1-2 weeks has assisted greatly in my range of motion in conjunction with physical work.

5. Mood - I stopped taking off my shirt years ago, I don't mean like a redneck at 7-11, I mean even around the house, around my wife. Now it's off like I'm fookin Matt McConaughey at a nude beach. ZEUS! I used to be so strong when I was in my 20's and I missed it so much. To feel like a strong Gorilla instead of an aging Chimp...I never thought I'd feel like that again...it's been gone so long. I still feel more patient than ever. It's easier to avoid any sort of confrontation when you feel like the world is amaze-balls. I had 2 vehicles steal parking spots from me at Costco today. It was packed and spots were scarce, but in both cases, I had been waiting with my signal light on, to have someone blow around the corner and pull in right as the person pulled out. I moved on to the next spot and eventually parked.

6. I know and have the security, that if someone attacked myself or my wife, I could manhandle them like the Hulk vs Loki. Is this ever going to happen? Where I live, statistically, probably not...but to have that security as a male...apparently I value that feeling very highly.

7. Increased Feed Efficiency - Every single nutrient I take in is used more efficiently right now.

8. Significantly increased Red Blood Cell count.



Something else to note: Taking something like this does not magically turn you in to a super model or a pro bodybuilder. It won't make you lose all the weight you want or add pounds of muscle on. You have to work out, and work out HARD. Harder than you would without it, which is the point...to take advantage of the recovery time bonus. You have to eat clean almost all the time and you have to think about everything you eat. If you want to lose fat, you still have to reduce calories, do cardio or both and lots of it. Your genetic make up is still going to be what it is, so if you're 4 ft tall and 4 ft wide by body frame, you aren't going to be 6'0 175lbs shredded the same way I could never be either of those body frames either. But if you put in the work, if you're willing to work your ass off, it does it's thing and it does it well. Increased metabolism, focus, strength, speed, stamina, energy.
 
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Why thanks! :D

Yeah, good advice. Something I should have done earlier, but I took my time beating around the topic because I like my current doctor and I was concerned he'd tell me to go find someone else, but he was more concerned I was administering it safely, which I was/am.

I do feel much better knowing he's going to look at my blood work and let me know early if anything goes bad. If for some reason my liver suddenly has 10x the enzymes it's supposed to, I'm going to get the fuck off of it and go back to aging ungracefully ;)

Glad to hear your GP knows. :D And yes, when you find out your liver point are 10 times what they should be? :eek:

Keep well. :D

Thank you! Very kind of you. I was only kidding about the liver being that bad. Because what I'm taking is intramuscular injection, it does not pass through the liver and has a zero factor on that. The thing I'm really itching to find out from my doc this week is my cholesterol and blood pressure. Those are the two things that are key for me to monitor. If they get out of hand, I promised my wife, I'm out. Or at the very least, I'd reduce the amount until that was no longer a factor. Increased test can increase your bad cholesterol and decrease your good cholesterol, which is fucked! Blood pressure can also go up. Because both of those were issues in my past, it's where I personally take my biggest risk for the benefits I'm receiving. I'm also very willing to quit tomorrow if I find out I'm putting myself at that kind of risk. I'd miss the hell out of it, but not more than I'd miss my wife or my son. I'll post what my results are on here in case anyone is interested in how it progresses (if not, I guess it will be for my own record).
 
Godless,

I read you OP with great interest and have seriously considered TRT to combat the effects of aging. Most 62 year olds don't do pull-ups and chin-ups anymore or try to sprint up hillsides or work out with dumbells. But I do. It's because I've always taken pride in having more muscle and definition than the next guy. We human males probably aren't much different than males of other species when it comes to the dominance game, though some would simply call it vanity. But vanity can keep a person very healthy so kudos to vanity. And I certainly wish you all the best.

Not being a doctor I think you are doing the right thing by getting tested for side effects. Not being a doctor also makes me wonder if you do not have a condition called cyclothymia.

Hypomanic symptoms

Signs and symptoms of the highs of cyclothymia may include:
•An exaggerated feeling of happiness or well-being (euphoria)
•Extreme optimism
•Inflated self-esteem
•Talking more than usual
•Poor judgment that can result in risky behavior or unwise choices
•Racing thoughts
•Irritable or agitated behavior
•Excessive physical activity
•Increased drive to perform or achieve goals (sexual, work related or social)
•Decreased need for sleep
•Tendency to be easily distracted
•Inability to concentrate

Depressive symptoms

Signs and symptoms of the lows of cyclothymia may include:
•Feeling sad, hopeless or empty
•Tearfulness
•Irritability, especially in children and teenagers
•Loss of interest in activities once considered enjoyable
•Changes in weight
•Feelings of worthlessness or guilt
•Sleep problems
•Restlessness
•Fatigue or feeling slowed down
•Problems concentrating
•Thinking of death or suicide
I've only recently self-diagnosed because I certainly have all the symptoms. But I don't think people who have awareness of their condition need any medications whatsoever. It's something they simply have to manage.

Like you I don't want to be alive for the sake of being alive. My take on aging is that I want to be healthy and able until the time I drop dead. Living out of a wheelchair or nursing home is not my thing. Same for all the males in my family. Medical professionals can certainly help us extend our lives but we shouldn't allow them to extend our death and dying, which is what happens in millions of cases. It's a personal choice.

Here's that cyclothymia link if you're interested.

Cyclothymia

And you have a great wife.

Hey JD,

Thanks for your interest in my post and your comments!

If you are interested in TRT or HRT depending on where you live, (and I'm sure you're already doing this) make sure you try go the physician route if it's accessible where you live. I still plan on working on my doc over time to try convince him to do it for me, but we'll see how that goes.

I have a lot of respect for you and Bronze for being dedicated life long to keeping fit. If you're capable of the types of exercises you mentioned at your age that's pretty amazing man! Much respect.

If you're doing great that route with no major issues, it may be best to stay that course.

On the other hand, if you've looked in to it and you feel it may be for you...you may think more like I do...which is...if science has progressed to the point where we can slow down or reverse some of the aging process...I want some of that. Which is exactly how I feel.

How is your diet? Do you supplement with anything currently?

Here's a typical food/supplement day for me right now:

Morning: 1/2 cup of quick oats with Stevia sweetner, 3 egg whites, 1/4 cup of skim milk, 2 glasses of water, 5g creatine, Omega 3 Wild Salmon Oil, Vit B6, B12, Glucosamine

3 hours later: 1/2 chicken breast or 250g of ground turkey (fried in light Avacado oil w/pepper to taste), 1/2 Avacado, 2 large Kale leaves raw, 1/4 cup of skim milk, 2 glasses of water

3 hours later: 1/2 chicken breast or ground turkey above, other 1/2 of Avacado, 1/2 cup of brown rice, maybe some spinach, lots of water, Omega 3

3 hours later: 1 - 1 1/2 filet of fish (salmon, pickerel, are favs, but I mix it up depending on budget) 1/2 cup of brown rice or a medium baked potato. Sliced up raw tomato if available. 1/2 cup of skim milk. 1/2 cup of orange juice if avail. 5 g of creatine. Vit D. Omega 3.

Any of these meals could be changed for a smoothie with a good protein powder in it or a treat meal if we go out or have company over. I've found the best thing that works is to not be that strict and just go with what feels right in my body, so if we're out for dinner and someone offers me perogies and sour cream and my body wants it, I eat it, but then I try to go back to clean 85% of the time. Same with my workouts. I don't say "I have to wait until Wed to work my arms, because that's "arms day"" If my arms feel like they need to be worked, it's friggin arms day, if my back feels like it isn't in recovery mode, it's back day etc. Cardio the same, the other day I just wasn't feeling it at all, even though I've been doing cardio almost every single day now, so I just skipped it. But on other days, I'll do it twice, if my body is saying "what's up bitch, let's do this!" then I do :D

Thanks for the link on Cyclothymia. Very interesting read! I don't think that's a good fit for me though...I've got a pretty good idea of what mental health issues I carry (although there is definitely some cross over in symptoms). I wish you nothing but success in the world if that's what you currently have and you're working on it. If you ever want to chat about it on here or in pm feel free to msg me. I think we have some things in common. Nothing wrong with extra support.

Medical professionals can certainly help us extend our lives but we shouldn't allow them to extend our death and dying, which is what happens in millions of cases. It's a personal choice.

I friggin love this quote from you man...love it. Sums up exactly how I feel.

And she is amazing. The last few years have gotten better and better and the last couple of months have been our best ever. She told me the other day "Out of everybody I've ever known in my whole life, I've never known anyone who works so hard on being a better spouse, a better partner...I never thought I'd ever be in a relationship like this with someone like you." to which the poet in me could only come up with "I fucking love you so much". Things are good. She thinks the way I try to improve as a partner is because that's just my personality. It's because of who she is and what she's meant to me that I want to continue to improve because she deserves it and then some. Wow...that was just getting uber corny. But yeah, I'm lucky.
 
Well, I pretty much agree with a lot of what you are saying. I also think steroids have a place in rehabilitation therapy...considering all it's done for burn victims, people that have no appetite due to disease, growth deficiencies, testosterone deficiency etc.

....

I speak from experience and I allow others may have different experiences. My observations are of other people, not myself.

As for the fountain of youth elixir, I've been offered that one and decided against it.

Nothing wrong with refusing the fountain of youth elixir. I completely get why someone would. I personally don't want to live forever. I do want to get whatever I can out of this life while I have it though.
 
Hi GR, I see the attraction, but also think you are correct when you identify it as an addiction.

Sounds like life is good, the only thing I would ask you to add is, regardless of the blood test results, get an appointment with a sports doctor, someone who treats high level athletes. They will know the long term outlook with more precision.

It's good to see you happy again.

Oh yeah...addicting and intoxicating. Which is of course the real elephant in the closet. In fiction, people killing over access to a fountain of youth is a common theme for a reason.

You make a great point about a sports doctor. Last week I was looking at our insurance coverage (wife now works for the largest insurance co in our country, so it turns out my coverage is pretty bad ass). I don't need a regular doctors recommendation and I can go to a sports therapist for 12 visits free of charge. I've already found a local one that deals with athletes that most likely use what I'm using and he was recommended by an old lug head I used to work out with so I'm going to make an appointment this week.

TYVM...it's been a trip
 
Please please have a cardiac workup. My husband was feeling tired (we have six children), not overly sexual and suffered horribly from allergies. His PCP decided to start him on TRT but didn't do the FULL workup and baselines necessary to see if this is/was what he needed. My husband felt great and yes, I admit to enjoying the benefit of increased sex. Four months in my husband suffered a massive heart attack and almost died. Quadruple bypass surgery. Only after did we find out there was a strong connection to the TRT as my husband was only 46. Please, just speak to a cardiologist at length and weigh the pros and cons.
 
Please please have a cardiac workup. My husband was feeling tired (we have six children), not overly sexual and suffered horribly from allergies. His PCP decided to start him on TRT but didn't do the FULL workup and baselines necessary to see if this is/was what he needed. My husband felt great and yes, I admit to enjoying the benefit of increased sex. Four months in my husband suffered a massive heart attack and almost died. Quadruple bypass surgery. Only after did we find out there was a strong connection to the TRT as my husband was only 46. Please, just speak to a cardiologist at length and weigh the pros and cons.

I'll second that. I'm on thyroid replacement therapy, and they're always checking and adjusting my dosage. Don't play around with this stuff. See an endocrinologist.
 
Blood work in this past week. Everything looks good. Organs are all functioning healthy. Cholesterol is a little high (was before), so is blood pressure (again, was before). At first my GP and I were slightly concerned about the amount of weight i've lost in such a short period of time (36 lbs now in just over 2 months). He said he was surprised at how well my neck and back reacted to his mobility test. He said the weight loss seems fine and that I look better than I have in the time I've seen him.

My testosterone level(s) were non-surprisingly high. My estrogen was a little high (that's normal that it will go up along with test). He prescribed me 2 meds that will remove any excess estrogen. He's agreed to keep seeing me every 2-4 weeks or if I feel there's an issue. So far he's still not going to do the shots himself, but I think I've got my foot in that door and it's a matter of time.

Exercise continues to go great, worked out my legs so hard yesterday and they've already recovered! The wife's home this whole week, so hopefully that means I can double my cardio ;)
 
Blood work in this past week. Everything looks good. Organs are all functioning healthy. Cholesterol is a little high (was before), so is blood pressure (again, was before). At first my GP and I were slightly concerned about the amount of weight i've lost in such a short period of time (36 lbs now in just over 2 months). He said he was surprised at how well my neck and back reacted to his mobility test. He said the weight loss seems fine and that I look better than I have in the time I've seen him.

My testosterone level(s) were non-surprisingly high. My estrogen was a little high (that's normal that it will go up along with test). He prescribed me 2 meds that will remove any excess estrogen. He's agreed to keep seeing me every 2-4 weeks or if I feel there's an issue. So far he's still not going to do the shots himself, but I think I've got my foot in that door and it's a matter of time.

Exercise continues to go great, worked out my legs so hard yesterday and they've already recovered! The wife's home this whole week, so hopefully that means I can double my cardio ;)

Have your PSA measured. Don't have sex for at least 3 days before your blood is drawn. It can mess up results.


Yes, in a heart beat, if I could have the body I had when I was in my 20's, I'd do it in a heart beat and also immediately schedule another tubal. I'd love to go back to a 23 inch waist again. I'm sure my husband would be thrilled as well.


I get the whole fountain of youth thing. I truly do.

Eating well and being active is the best thing you can do for yourself.

The rest is just ego. I understand the appeal of that, but it's ego. Not health.
 
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