Yet another war, this time with Iran

[Derec]

Iran knows their best way out of this debacle is to make it a bigger debacle.

Which means that the only sensible strategy for us is to not give in just because they escalate. We must not be timid, but need to see it through, and meet escalation with escalation. They pull a knife, we pull a gun. You know, the Chicago Way.

Once Trump loses enough public support that current Republican Senators and Representatives can finally shrug him off(those that are still in office), he will withdraw US forces from the area. This will likely include most of the US bases in Gulf States.

This would be the worst possible outcome and Republican (as well as Democratic) Congresscritters would be ill advised to demand that. Unfortunately, there are people on both right and left who think this way, for different reasons.

Their only function was to serve as a threat. The problem with using a threat as a tool of policy is once you act on it, the threat no longer exists. One facet of this debacle is the former threat is now a present target.

Military installations are a target in war. [surprised Pikachu face]
At the same time, they are also dealing a lot of damage to the Regime.
The only strategic card the Regime has is the Strait of Hormuz. The only major money input they have are hydrocarbons. Remove these two things from the equation, and they are fucked.
But it requires some patience, and having the stomach for realities of war. Thinking you can do this in a fortnight, and without taking losses, is foolishness, as is demanding we surrender at the first sight of trouble. General B. Zage would have advocated capitulating to Japan after Pearl Harbor.

 

[Derec]

The bridge itself is not the issue, from the war crimes perspective.
Do you acknowledge that the people on the bridge were human beings equally deserving of life and freedom as yourself?

Of course they are. But collateral damage is not in itself a war crime. That's why I asked for [citation needed] about the claim that first responders were deliberately targeted.

 

[bilby]

Casualties and POWs are a reality of warfare. Are we so soft that we can't handle the reality of war?

Yes. Yes you are. Have been since Vietnam.

That you see this as a bad thing says a lot, none of it good, about you.

The reality is that we shouldn't be able to "handle" the horror that is war. We should be absolutely resolute in our determination never to engage in it unless forced to do.

There was no good reason to start this war. The POTUS and his Secretary of Defence War would never have dreamed of doing so, if their very own chickenshit asses had been on the line.

They are not sending other people's children to fight in defence of the USA; And their changing the name of the DoW shows that they are not even bothering to pretend that they are.

They are doing this (as they do everything) for personal gain. If a few US service personnel die, then that's a sacrifice they are more than happy to make - they can even spin those deaths into greater political support from their cult followers base.

 

[bilby]

Which means that the only sensible strategy for us is to not give in just because they escalate. We must not be timid, but need to see it through, and meet escalation with escalation. They pull a knife, we pull a gun.

A fascinating game. The only way to win is not to play.

How about a nice game of Chess?

 

[ZiprHead]

As you can see, the span is severed, hindering movement of materials.
But the towers are intact, and the bridge should be able to be repaired fairly quickly once the war is over. `
The goal should be to maximally disrupt the functioning of the Regime while minimizing long-term damage.

The bridge wasn't in use. It was still being built. Notice the cranes by each tower. They killed workers unnecessarily.

 

[ideologyhunter]

Our President's Easter Eve message to Iran tells them that they have 48 hours to open the Strait 'before all hell will reign (sic) down on them. Glory be to God!'
I think the buzzword will be quagmire in another couple days.

 

[Politesse]

The bridge itself is not the issue, from the war crimes perspective.
Do you acknowledge that the people on the bridge were human beings equally deserving of life and freedom as yourself?

Of course they are. But collateral damage is not in itself a war crime. That's why I asked for [citation needed] about the claim that first responders were deliberately targeted.

A surprise attack in the middle of the day, on busy civilian infrastructure you know to be crowded with holiday traffic, isn't collateral damage. It's fucking terrorism, and you know it, too. If the Iranians snuck a dirty bomb onto the Golden gate and killed 8 people on our New Year's Eve, you wouldn't be feigining confusion about whether or not it was a justifiable military action.

 

[Tigers!]

As you can see, the span is severed, hindering movement of materials.
But the towers are intact, and the bridge should be able to be repaired fairly quickly once the war is over. `
The goal should be to maximally disrupt the functioning of the Regime while minimizing long-term damage.

The bridge wasn't in use. It was still being built. Notice the cranes by each tower. They killed workers unnecessarily.

The workers should have been warned.

 

[Patooka]

Our President's Easter Eve message to Iran tells them that they have 48 hours to open the Strait 'before all hell will reign (sic) down on them. Glory be to God!'

It really isn't any different to bin Laden's videos in the early 2000s.

 

[laughing dog]

We are allegedly at war with the theocratic leadership of Iran, not their people. Civil infrastructure harms the people a lot more than the government. War crime or not, it is a bullshit target.

Bridges are dual use. And the district where it is located has some nuclear sites, from what I read. So it seems like a legitimate target.

Dual use as justification for legitimate targets can be used to attack anything.

 

[laughing dog]

Extending a costly mistake until it becomes a wise choice is certainly an interesting strategy. Worked for the US in Vietnam, Libya and Afganistan.

 

[barbos]

So, Irainians have not captured the second pilot yet or pretend they have not.... I guess in order to make US waste more people in search operaton.

Ok, looks like US forces rescued the second pilot.

 

[barbos]

Bridges are dual use. And the district where it is located has some nuclear sites

Yeah, bridges under construction can be used in the future for transporting ayatollah, schoolgirls in school are also dual use, they can be used in the future to bring future ayatollah into this world.

 

[barbos]

Our President's Easter Eve message to Iran tells them that they have 48 hours to open the Strait 'before all hell will reign (sic) down on them. Glory be to God!'

It really isn't any different to bin Laden's videos in the early 2000s.

Well, in a way US regime is responsible for both these indivuduals.

 

[Bronzeage]

Iran knows their best way out of this debacle is to make it a bigger debacle.

Which means that the only sensible strategy for us is to not give in just because they escalate. We must not be timid, but need to see it through, and meet escalation with escalation. They pull a knife, we pull a gun. You know, the Chicago Way.

Once Trump loses enough public support that current Republican Senators and Representatives can finally shrug him off(those that are still in office), he will withdraw US forces from the area. This will likely include most of the US bases in Gulf States.

This would be the worst possible outcome and Republican (as well as Democratic) Congresscritters would be ill advised to demand that. Unfortunately, there are people on both right and left who think this way, for different reasons.

Their only function was to serve as a threat. The problem with using a threat as a tool of policy is once you act on it, the threat no longer exists. One facet of this debacle is the former threat is now a present target.

Military installations are a target in war. [surprised Pikachu face]
At the same time, they are also dealing a lot of damage to the Regime.
The only strategic card the Regime has is the Strait of Hormuz. The only major money input they have are hydrocarbons. Remove these two things from the equation, and they are fucked.
But it requires some patience, and having the stomach for realities of war. Thinking you can do this in a fortnight, and without taking losses, is foolishness, as is demanding we surrender at the first sight of trouble. General B. Zage would have advocated capitulating to Japan after Pearl Harbor.

We didn't capitulate after Pearl Harbor. Why do you think Iran will capitulate after getting Pearl Harbored. Japan was counting on the US being so weakened that we would negotiate. Sound familiar?

This is a strange use of the term "sensible strategy". You really shouldn't base strategic keyboard command on a line from a Kevin Costner movie. You may remember the character who said those words didn't make it to the end of the movie and he wasn't timid. This may come as a shock to you, but sometimes being the biggest baddest motherfucker in the valley of the shadow of death is just not enough.

The reality of this war is the United States does not have the resources to invade and conquer Iran. All we can do is stand off and destroy their stuff and we can't stop them from blowing up our stuff. It won't matter whether Hormuz is open or if the Persian Gulf dries up. There won't be any Middle Eastern oil production. Combined with the loss of Russian oil production and it really won't matter what a gallon of gas costs, there won't be enough to go around. That's the reality of the situation and when Iran is out of missiles and drones, we still haven't gained anything. Maybe Trump will decide wind turbines and solar panels aren't so bad after all.

The tragedy of the situation is this debacle is the product a small group of very stupid people. It's as if a very smart person wanted to weaken the US as a military power, destroy alliances which are over 100 years old, and bankrupt us while doing so.

This is a fuck up of epic proportions. Trump is like every other military leader in history whose only hope of winning was to hit hard first and hope it wouldn't last long.

 

[barbos]

Pentagon has redefined the meaning of the word "damaged"

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Two Planes Destroyed by U.S. During Rescue Operation​

Two U.S. Special Operations aircraft were blown up on the ground during the rescue mission of the second American aviator in Iran, a person familiar with the mission said.

MC-130Js are specially equipped planes that are used to carry out covert infiltrations and to remove troops from beyond enemy lines...

versus...

Iran says five killed during US rescue op, claims several US aircraft downed

Iranian media reports that five people were killed in strikes during the US operation to rescue an airman whose fighter jet was shot down on Friday.

At the same time, Iran’s Revolutionary Guards say several American aircraft were destroyed during the US mission, according to Tasnim news agency.

“During a joint operation (Aerospace, Ground Force, Popular Units, Basij and Police command), enemy aircraft were destroyed,” the group says after Iran’s police command claimed an American C-130 plane had been downed in the south of Isfahan.

...

According to a New York Times report, US forces blew up their own C-130 transport planes after they got stuck on an airfield and did not want them to fall into Iranian hands.

 

[steve_bank]

Trump seems like a kid in a bathtub playing with toy battleships.

With the Trump militray and intelligence purges who knows how good the intelligence is. Iran was planning for this for some time. Look ate the Iran Iraq war. Eight years.

The Iranian ace in the hole was always Hormuz, and everybody knew it. Except Tr ump.

There was talk in the past about large scale wars versus asymmetric warfare.

The US military was not restricted from dealing with asymmetric warfare but historically shifted focus between counterinsurgency (asymmetric) and conventional, large-scale combat
. Dedicated units like the Army Asymmetric Warfare Group (AWG) (2003–2020) were created to manage these threats, but often faced deactivation when the military pivoted toward peer-adversary conflicts.

We occupied Japan post war and Germany. We are still in South Korea in force to keep the peace with NK and it took decades for democracy to take hold.

The only way to end the regional conflicts would be to occupy and control Iran.

 

[Tigers!]

We are allegedly at war with the theocratic leadership of Iran, not their people. Civil infrastructure harms the people a lot more than the government. War crime or not, it is a bullshit target.

Bridges are dual use. And the district where it is located has some nuclear sites, from what I read. So it seems like a legitimate target.

Dual use as justification for legitimate targets can be used to attack anything.

Dual use can be a pain.
Fertiliser can be used as fertiliser or as a bomb.

 

[Colonel Sanders]

The way the war is going dems should win but what's the point if they can't get enough votes to send orange shit and his war criminals/insider traders to prison?

The Dems can manage to fuck up even the easiest opportunities. They lost unions to a party that openly hates unions. They annoyed every demographic so much that it put Trump in office twice by failing to disavow and give voice to radical nincompoops. They're very creative in their ability to lose what should otherwise be easy wins.

Radical nincompoops? The GOP embraced Alex Jones, RFK Jr., etc… GOP is passing chemtrail and UFO bills. But the Democrats chased voters away just by failing to disavow “radical nincompoops”.

What’s a radical lefty? Liz Warren?

The term "Whataboutism" can apply to any party and any individual.

It's easy and now boring to excoriate Republicans for their shocking lies, hypocrisy, and willingness to turn on a dime when it's convenient. What I find far more interesting is the need for Democratic introspection.

Shit like "Defund the police!", radical transactivism, three generations of DEI that people are fed up with, and idiotic terms like "White people problems," "White privilege", hostility towards traditional families, hostility towards hetero males of all races, etc. have combined to give the perception that this is what the Dems are all about. Tiny voices are magnified beyond justification and practical demographics yet the Dems cater to these small but screeching little crowds instead of distancing themselves from them.

Agree or not, but look who controls all three branches of the federal government.

Oh, and this vicious streak of antisemitism running through the left like a flesh eating virus doesn't help either. Support of authoritarian fascist theocracies who hate LGBTQ, women, and all others who don't share their beliefs is, believe it or not, absolutely befuddling.

The GOP isn't going to change. They're the big tent party now and it's working for them. With minuscule exceptions, they'll take anyone. Meanwhile the Dems are busy chasing people away.