You deserve to be raped

[Toni]

And some judges are mighty lenient even when the rapist confesses:

http://www.cnn.com/2014/04/30/justice/montana-rape-sentence/

Baugh's comments at the sentencing in August sparked controversy. He said the girl looked older than her years and was "probably as much in control of the situation as was the defendant," according to the Montana attorney general's office, which appealed the sentence.
In Wednesday's decision, the state Supreme Court ruled that Baugh used an inapplicable statute to impose the 31-day sentence. When read properly, Montana law mandates a minimum four-year prison sentence -- with a suspension of no more than two years -- for the rape of children under 16 by someone at least three years older, the court ruled.

Since he raped his 14 year old student, it is highly likely he actually knew how old she was. Not that appearing older is justification for raping anybody. Except to rape apologists.

This is a weird case and the coverage of it is not very clear. It is not clear to me whether this was an actual rape or simply defined as "rape" because she was so young. The "she was probably as much in control of the situation" and him saying "I thought she was older" (her age would hardly be an excuse for rape, but would be an excuse for consensual sex) lines lead me to believe that it was probably statutory rape rather than "rape rape" (as Whoopi Goldberg would say) as does the sentence, quite frankly. I cannot imagine a judge would impose a 31 day jail term for an actual rape (i.e. sex against the girl's will) of a 14 year old. Also if it was just statutory rape (i.e. it was in accordance with her will but she is deemed too young to consent by law) the 31 day jail term is appropriate and the 15 year probation excessive.
Also the whole thing is part of a plea deal which complicates things further.

Do you have any links that give more details here? Also, if the sentence is invalidated by the Montana Supreme Court does that mean the guilty plea is invalid as well and the case will have to be retried?

In any case, it is very unfortunate that the girl killed herself.

She was 14 and his student. In either case, it was rape. Because of her age it was statutory rape. Because he was her teacher and in a position of authority over her, it was rape. It is not necessary that he knocked her over the head, tied her up, held a gun to her head and a knife to her throat for it to be real rape. I don't know if he did tie her up, knock her out, use a weapon other than age, size and authority over her. She was raped.

I am sure google works at your house, same as mine, so feel free to knock yourself out.

 

[doubtingt]

One person, indeed, does not make a culture. However it is the reasoning behind rape victims who meet X or Y conditions being partially responsible which is a serious issue. Not only it is a serious issue because it suggests that she/he is an accessory to the crime but it can only increase the feeling of shame and guilt so common among rape victims. IMO, that is where the term "rape culture" finds its source : when the victim is viewed as partially responsible. Such mentality can only undermine the empathy we should all experience for rape victims.

This guy is scum, no question.

What nobody is showing is a group in which this attitude is widespread, without that I don't see how it's an argument for the existence of rape culture.

This works only if our definition of "rape culture" is flexible enough to exclude this sort of thing. Rape culture is the concept that a woman can entice a man to rape her and she bares the blame for his crime. "You deserve to be raped," is a pretty blatant expression of this concept.

It is an expression of a concept, yes. But a concept is not a culture, even if multiple people hold that concept. You have to stretch the notion of "culture" to the point of vague meaninglessness. Productive reasoned inquiry about any subject depends upon clarifying and specifying concepts and the language used to refer to them to greater and greater degree. This is the hallmark of all fields that have made any contributions to intellectual advancement and to tech, political, social, and moral advancements rooted in that greater understanding. Allowing "rape-culture" to refer to the idea that a small minority of people think that women who do things that increase sexual arousal are responsible for being raped is just the opposite of such productive reasoned inquiry.

 

[Sabine Grant]

And some judges are mighty lenient even when the rapist confesses:

http://www.cnn.com/2014/04/30/justice/montana-rape-sentence/

Baugh's comments at the sentencing in August sparked controversy. He said the girl looked older than her years and was "probably as much in control of the situation as was the defendant," according to the Montana attorney general's office, which appealed the sentence.
In Wednesday's decision, the state Supreme Court ruled that Baugh used an inapplicable statute to impose the 31-day sentence. When read properly, Montana law mandates a minimum four-year prison sentence -- with a suspension of no more than two years -- for the rape of children under 16 by someone at least three years older, the court ruled.

Since he raped his 14 year old student, it is highly likely he actually knew how old she was. Not that appearing older is justification for raping anybody. Except to rape apologists.

This is a weird case and the coverage of it is not very clear. It is not clear to me whether this was an actual rape or simply defined as "rape" because she was so young. The "she was probably as much in control of the situation" and him saying "I thought she was older" (her age would hardly be an excuse for rape, but would be an excuse for consensual sex) lines lead me to believe that it was probably statutory rape rather than "rape rape" (as Whoopi Goldberg would say) as does the sentence, quite frankly. I cannot imagine a judge would impose a 31 day jail term for an actual rape (i.e. sex against the girl's will) of a 14 year old. Also if it was just statutory rape (i.e. it was in accordance with her will but she is deemed too young to consent by law) the 31 day jail term is appropriate and the 15 year probation excessive.
Also the whole thing is part of a plea deal which complicates things further.

Do you have any links that give more details here? Also, if the sentence is invalidated by the Montana Supreme Court does that mean the guilty plea is invalid as well and the case will have to be retried?

In any case, it is very unfortunate that the girl killed herself.

She was 14 and his student. In either case, it was rape. Because of her age it was statutory rape. Because he was her teacher and in a position of authority over her, it was rape. It is not necessary that he knocked her over the head, tied her up, held a gun to her head and a knife to her throat for it to be real rape. I don't know if he did tie her up, knock her out, use a weapon other than age, size and authority over her. She was raped.

I am sure google works at your house, same as mine, so feel free to knock yourself out.

I discussed earlier Loren's use of the word "willingness" and explained why we cannot speak of willingness and why the Judge is an idiot :

http://talkfreethought.org/showthread.php?817-You-deserve-to-be-raped&p=15632&viewfull=1#post15632

 

[Bronzeage]

One person, indeed, does not make a culture. However it is the reasoning behind rape victims who meet X or Y conditions being partially responsible which is a serious issue. Not only it is a serious issue because it suggests that she/he is an accessory to the crime but it can only increase the feeling of shame and guilt so common among rape victims. IMO, that is where the term "rape culture" finds its source : when the victim is viewed as partially responsible. Such mentality can only undermine the empathy we should all experience for rape victims.

This guy is scum, no question.

What nobody is showing is a group in which this attitude is widespread, without that I don't see how it's an argument for the existence of rape culture.

This works only if our definition of "rape culture" is flexible enough to exclude this sort of thing. Rape culture is the concept that a woman can entice a man to rape her and she bares the blame for his crime. "You deserve to be raped," is a pretty blatant expression of this concept.

It is an expression of a concept, yes. But a concept is not a culture, even if multiple people hold that concept. You have to stretch the notion of "culture" to the point of vague meaninglessness. Productive reasoned inquiry about any subject depends upon clarifying and specifying concepts and the language used to refer to them to greater and greater degree. This is the hallmark of all fields that have made any contributions to intellectual advancement and to tech, political, social, and moral advancements rooted in that greater understanding. Allowing "rape-culture" to refer to the idea that a small minority of people think that women who do things that increase sexual arousal are responsible for being raped is just the opposite of such productive reasoned inquiry.

Now we are just arguing semantics. Bullfighting is a culture. There are people who people who find it a beautiful expression of art. This clashes with lot of other people's sentiments about the thing, but no one denies that bullfighting culture feels justified in its feelings and social norms define a culture.

Whether it is a small minority or a significant number of people, no one is born believing women deserve to be raped. It is a behavior which is learned through socialization from generation to generation. That makes it a culture. If we deny the existence of this culture and treat instances such as the guy in the OP as anomalies, in the same way a sociopath may be born into and otherwise ordinary family, we miss the mark completely and there will be no productive reasoned inquiry.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

One person, indeed, does not make a culture. However it is the reasoning behind rape victims who meet X or Y conditions being partially responsible which is a serious issue. Not only it is a serious issue because it suggests that she/he is an accessory to the crime but it can only increase the feeling of shame and guilt so common among rape victims. IMO, that is where the term "rape culture" finds its source : when the victim is viewed as partially responsible. Such mentality can only undermine the empathy we should all experience for rape victims.

This guy is scum, no question.

What nobody is showing is a group in which this attitude is widespread, without that I don't see how it's an argument for the existence of rape culture.

This works only if our definition of "rape culture" is flexible enough to exclude this sort of thing. Rape culture is the concept that a woman can entice a man to rape her and she bares the blame for his crime. "You deserve to be raped," is a pretty blatant expression of this concept.

I don't see how you can argue otherwise.

My problem here is with the word culture. I don't believe a view, no matter how onerous, can be considered a culture if it's not held by a reasonable percentage of people in some actual (not merely statistical) group. Find 1000 scum like this, not a culture. Find those 1000 in a fraternity of 3000 and it's a culture.

- - - Updated - - -

It is an expression of a concept, yes. But a concept is not a culture, even if multiple people hold that concept. You have to stretch the notion of "culture" to the point of vague meaninglessness. Productive reasoned inquiry about any subject depends upon clarifying and specifying concepts and the language used to refer to them to greater and greater degree. This is the hallmark of all fields that have made any contributions to intellectual advancement and to tech, political, social, and moral advancements rooted in that greater understanding. Allowing "rape-culture" to refer to the idea that a small minority of people think that women who do things that increase sexual arousal are responsible for being raped is just the opposite of such productive reasoned inquiry.

Thank you. I'm glad someone sees the distinction I'm making.

- - - Updated - - -

Now we are just arguing semantics. Bullfighting is a culture. There are people who people who find it a beautiful expression of art. This clashes with lot of other people's sentiments about the thing, but no one denies that bullfighting culture feels justified in its feelings and social norms define a culture.

Whether it is a small minority or a significant number of people, no one is born believing women deserve to be raped. It is a behavior which is learned through socialization from generation to generation. That makes it a culture. If we deny the existence of this culture and treat instances such as the guy in the OP as anomalies, in the same way a sociopath may be born into and otherwise ordinary family, we miss the mark completely and there will be no productive reasoned inquiry.

Bullfighting is a culture because it's a substantial organized group of people that do it.

Find that organized group of people in this case.

 

[Bronzeage]

Now we are just arguing semantics. Bullfighting is a culture. There are people who people who find it a beautiful expression of art. This clashes with lot of other people's sentiments about the thing, but no one denies that bullfighting culture feels justified in its feelings and social norms define a culture.

Whether it is a small minority or a significant number of people, no one is born believing women deserve to be raped. It is a behavior which is learned through socialization from generation to generation. That makes it a culture. If we deny the existence of this culture and treat instances such as the guy in the OP as anomalies, in the same way a sociopath may be born into and otherwise ordinary family, we miss the mark completely and there will be no productive reasoned inquiry.

Bullfighting is a culture because it's a substantial organized group of people that do it.

Find that organized group of people in this case.

Generation to generation. Is there a more organized group than a family?

 

[Elixir]

Not to make light of the subject or anything, but...

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Not to make light of the subject or anything, but...
View attachment 306

That was funny. Sure it's funny in a "Hey, somebody set that guy on fire" type of funny, but it's still funny.

 

[TV and credit cards]

Skimming through the posts, I didn't see it mentioned but isn't a portion of this attributable to mothers failing to teach their daughters to conduct themselves like ladies? More to the point, fathers failing to teach their sons to act like gentlemen?
Impure Thoughts
We are not taught/trained to control our emotions/urges. We blame the source.

 

[Toni]

Skimming through the posts, I didn't see it mentioned but isn't a portion of this attributable to mothers failing to teach their daughters to conduct themselves like ladies? More to the point, fathers failing to teach their sons to act like gentlemen?
Impure Thoughts
We are not taught/trained to control our emotions/urges. We blame the source.

Rape is not caused by unladylike behavior.

 

[bilby]

Skimming through the posts, I didn't see it mentioned but isn't a portion of this attributable to mothers failing to teach their daughters to conduct themselves like ladies? More to the point, fathers failing to teach their sons to act like gentlemen?
Impure Thoughts
We are not taught/trained to control our emotions/urges. We blame the source.

Rape is not caused by unladylike behavior.

Nor, indeed, is it merely 'ungentlemanly'.

I can recall my dad telling me that it is rude to push past a lady in order to get through a doorway ahead of her; or to remain seated on a bus while a lady is standing. He said that this behaviour was not appropriate for a gentleman. He didn't really need to mention that forcing a lady to have sex with me against her will was not the done thing, any more than he needed to mention that it is not polite to smash someone on the head with a brick and steal his wallet, or that it is considered rude to storm into a bank wearing a balaclava and brandishing a firearm and demand all their cash.

There is a place in our society for people who don't understand that raping people is always unacceptable; it is here.

Teaching your son to act like a gentleman might help him to avoid the occasional minor faux pas. Committing an act of rape is not a faux pas; and attempting to belittle it to that status is truly ugly.

 

[angelo]

It's not even a convenient excuse, because the guys who say things like this, aren't the rapists. .

No, they're the rapists' lawyers, who try to convince a jury that it's at least plausible that she 'wanted it.'
That their client doesn't deserve to be punished for taking advantage or for not taking 'no' as an answer, because everyone who knows Slutty Susan knows that her 'no' means 'yes' or 'maybe.'
And judgmental pricks on the jury nod their head sagely, thinking 'i would not let my daughter dres...' rather than 'would i let this guy off if it was my daughter...'

 

[angelo]

One nutter isn't a culture.

- - - Updated - - -

eta: oh, but there's no such thing as "rape culture."

Street preachers saying stupid shit is not evidence of "rape culture".

It most assuredly evidence of "a rape culture". Perhaps not a pervasive one, but those who agree that a rape victim is even partially responsible for her/his rape adhere to that "rape culture" because no one deserves to be raped. No one.

One person does not make a culture.

One person, indeed, does not make a culture. However it is the reasoning behind rape victims who meet X or Y conditions being partially responsible which is a serious issue. Not only it is a serious issue because it suggests that she/he is an accessory to the crime but it can only increase the feeling of shame and guilt so common among rape victims. IMO, that is where the term "rape culture" finds its source : when the victim is viewed as partially responsible. Such mentality can only undermine the empathy we should all experience for rape victims.

There is never ever an excuse for rape. No ifs or buts. I have no idea how defence lawyers who defend a rapist scum can sleep at night!

 

[Unbeatable]

There is never ever an excuse for rape. No ifs or buts. I have no idea how defence lawyers who defend a rapist scum can sleep at night!

On top of a pile of money with many beautiful ladies(who owe them sex in exchange for the money), I imagine.

More seriously, I imagine defense lawyers are probably quite well-practiced at thinking of their clients as "people accused of a crime and presumed innocent until proven guilty", or at least "people who have a constitutional right to a fair trial", not as "rapist scum". Just as prosecutors are probably well-practiced at thinking of defendants as "criminal scum".

 

[TV and credit cards]

Skimming through the posts, I didn't see it mentioned but isn't a portion of this attributable to mothers failing to teach their daughters to conduct themselves like ladies? More to the point, fathers failing to teach their sons to act like gentlemen?
Impure Thoughts
We are not taught/trained to control our emotions/urges. We blame the source.

Rape is not caused by unladylike behavior.

Nor, indeed, is it merely 'ungentlemanly'.

I can recall my dad telling me that it is rude to push past a lady in order to get through a doorway ahead of her; or to remain seated on a bus while a lady is standing. He said that this behaviour was not appropriate for a gentleman. He didn't really need to mention that forcing a lady to have sex with me against her will was not the done thing, any more than he needed to mention that it is not polite to smash someone on the head with a brick and steal his wallet, or that it is considered rude to storm into a bank wearing a balaclava and brandishing a firearm and demand all their cash.

There is a place in our society for people who don't understand that raping people is always unacceptable; it is here.

Teaching your son to act like a gentleman might help him to avoid the occasional minor faux pas. Committing an act of rape is not a faux pas; and attempting to belittle it to that status is truly ugly.

This I find rude and unwarranted, particularly the last statement. But perhaps we misunderstand each other.
Many people spend their entire lives living in one environment, surrounded by one social class. I have not. Where I've lived and the people I've experienced have varied greatly. Perhaps that is the disconnect here.

Consider, can a father teaching his son to conduct himself like a gentlemen aid his son in pushing past the peer pressure he may experience in a situation about to turn ugly? Perhaps in your world, strength of character is innate so peer pressure is not an issue. But consider some may need guidance.
Can fathers and mothers teaching their children to conduct themselves properly prevent some of these situations from developing in the first place, or are they all just fucked up in the head and need to check in to The Park?

 

[angelo]

I should have worded that differently. A defence lawyer knowing beyond doubt his client is guilty and will in most cases grill the victim unmercifully, making her out to be a slut that was asking for it, or the sex was consensul and she cried rape afterwards. These the guys I meant could in some cases be referred to as scum.

 

[RavenSky]

Skimming through the posts, I didn't see it mentioned but isn't a portion of this attributable to mothers failing to teach their daughters to conduct themselves like ladies? More to the point, fathers failing to teach their sons to act like gentlemen?
Impure Thoughts
We are not taught/trained to control our emotions/urges. We blame the source.

How on earth did you get "attributable to mothers failing to teach their daughters to conduct themselves like ladies" from the article you linked, much less as a solution to rape?

A bunch of religious men* punish a teenager by evicting her from her (homeschool) high school prom because THEY had "impure thoughts" about her. So it is her Mother's fault that these men are religious fruitcakes?

Frankly, the young woman in the article addresses your ridiculous position best:

I was told that the way I dressed and moved my body was causing men to think inappropriately about me, implying that it is my responsibility to control other people’s thoughts and drives…

I’m not responsible for some perverted 45-year-old dad lusting after me because I have a sparkly dress on and a big ass for a teenager. And if you think I am, then maybe you’re part of the problem.

* or one fruitcake woman who claims the men complained to her. I question the truthfulness of the woman chaperone's claims in this situation.

 

[angelo]

Skimming through the posts, I didn't see it mentioned but isn't a portion of this attributable to mothers failing to teach their daughters to conduct themselves like ladies? More to the point, fathers failing to teach their sons to act like gentlemen?
Impure Thoughts
We are not taught/trained to control our emotions/urges. We blame the source.

Rape is not caused by unladylike behavior.

Nor, indeed, is it merely 'ungentlemanly'.

I can recall my dad telling me that it is rude to push past a lady in order to get through a doorway ahead of her; or to remain seated on a bus while a lady is standing. He said that this behaviour was not appropriate for a gentleman. He didn't really need to mention that forcing a lady to have sex with me against her will was not the done thing, any more than he needed to mention that it is not polite to smash someone on the head with a brick and steal his wallet, or that it is considered rude to storm into a bank wearing a balaclava and brandishing a firearm and demand all their cash.

There is a place in our society for people who don't understand that raping people is always unacceptable; it is here.

Teaching your son to act like a gentleman might help him to avoid the occasional minor faux pas. Committing an act of rape is not a faux pas; and attempting to belittle it to that status is truly ugly.

This I find rude and unwarranted, particularly the last statement. But perhaps we misunderstand each other.
Many people spend their entire lives living in one environment, surrounded by one social class. I have not. Where I've lived and the people I've experienced have varied greatly. Perhaps that is the disconnect here.

Consider, can a father teaching his son to conduct himself like a gentlemen aid his son in pushing past the peer pressure he may experience in a situation about to turn ugly? Perhaps in your world, strength of character is innate so peer pressure is not an issue. But consider some may need guidance.
Can fathers and mothers teaching their children to conduct themselves properly prevent some of these situations from developing in the first place, or are they all just fucked up in the head and need to check in to The Park?

When as a teenager of around 18, an ex friend and I met this girl one night who got into the vehicle with us, after plying her with drink, hell, the three of us were drinking quite heavily. To cut to the chase My ex friend then forced this girl to have sex with him. After he finished he said: "Come on angelo, it's your turn." At no time did the girl agree to have sex. In my gut I knew this is so wrong, even in my half inebriated state I said no way!! That was the reason he became an ex friend.
In the morning I went to a police station to report the matter, they brought him in for questioning but the girl never reported it, so they never charged him or me as an accessory. That has remained on my mind for all these years, I hate to think what that girl went through. The point of this is that I knew it was wrong and acted appropriately even half drunk. Surely most civilised men would also know that no means no!

 

[TV and credit cards]

Skimming through the posts, I didn't see it mentioned but isn't a portion of this attributable to mothers failing to teach their daughters to conduct themselves like ladies? More to the point, fathers failing to teach their sons to act like gentlemen?
Impure Thoughts
We are not taught/trained to control our emotions/urges. We blame the source.

How on earth did you get "attributable to mothers failing to teach their daughters to conduct themselves like ladies" from the article you linked, much less as a solution to rape?

A bunch of religious men* punish a teenager by evicting her from her (homeschool) high school prom because THEY had "impure thoughts" about her. So it is her Mother's fault that these men are religious fruitcakes?

Frankly, the young woman in the article addresses your ridiculous position best:

I was told that the way I dressed and moved my body was causing men to think inappropriately about me, implying that it is my responsibility to control other people’s thoughts and drives…

I’m not responsible for some perverted 45-year-old dad lusting after me because I have a sparkly dress on and a big ass for a teenager. And if you think I am, then maybe you’re part of the problem.

* or one fruitcake woman who claims the men complained to her. I question the truthfulness of the woman chaperone's claims in this situation.

I didn't. Perhaps space between the first statement and the link would have helped. The link relates to the statement after in that fathers need to teach their sons self-control and exhibit some themselves rather than blaming the girl.

 

[fromderinside]

The point of this is that I knew it was wrong and acted appropriately even half drunk. Surely most civilised men would also know that no means no!

You show there's hope.

When everybody equates unwanted knife in body with unwanted wee wee in body (That one works both ways - think about it -) maybe, just maybe....the cops will charge you as an accessory ...