The incel issue

[lostone]

The truth is that there are a lot of lonely women out there who are never considered ‘date’ material. They are too old or too tall or too fat or too think or too awkward or too successful or even too beautiful or too smart or too independent or whatever.

Some of them have the same hang ups lonely men have: lack of confidence, socially awkward. Don’t look like models. You know the type: real women.

The dating game is very rough on many people. So rough they quit or opt out of it altogether.

Even some of the women who are too beautfiul scare men off.

 

[lostone]

I am only 5'5" and I managed to marry an attractive woman, who had one flaw, a lazy eye. She is long dead; after 50 years of marriage, and I am 82. I dated some tall women, and even some beautiful women, but I had to be assertive and few men ever learn to be that, but i was strongly motivated. I still reflect on and wonder how the difficult path could have been eased for all of us. I still view myself as basically an incel who found a way out.

 

[laughing dog]

I am only 5'5" and I managed to marry an attractive woman, who had one flaw, a lazy eye. She is long dead; after 50 years of marriage, and I am 82. I dated some tall women, and even some beautiful women, but I had to be assertive and few men ever learn to be that, but i was strongly motivated. I still reflect on and wonder how the difficult path could have been eased for all of us. I still view myself as basically an incel who found a way out.

I think most people are basically incels who find a way out.

 

[lostone]

I am only 5'5" and I managed to marry an attractive woman, who had one flaw, a lazy eye. She is long dead; after 50 years of marriage, and I am 82. I dated some tall women, and even some beautiful women, but I had to be assertive and few men ever learn to be that, but i was strongly motivated. I still reflect on and wonder how the difficult path could have been eased for all of us. I still view myself as basically an incel who found a way out.

I think most people are basically incels who find a way out.

That's a large part of the reasons why men in old societies and the Middle East turned and continue to turn women into chattels - those men are afraid they can't catch and attract a woman without strong social mores that take away all of a woman's power to chose for herself. Those men know they would be incels without the power of religion and tradition to render women powerless.

 

[southernhybrid]

I think it's interesting that only one female so far, unless I missed an earlier post, has replied to this thread. So, let's add a second woman. I've been married twice. My first husband was short and somewhat attractive. I was only 19 when I met him, far too young to be a good judge of his character. It turned out that he was a cheap ass, religious fanatic, who never loved me, but he did like that we had sex almost every day and I was the one who initiated it and pretty much did all the work. Luckily for him, I've always had a high sex drive. After nine years of being disrespected, we parted. He's had two more wives and from what I've heard via my son, his third wife doesn't seem very happy with him.

We parted during the disco era and I had a friend with benefits for awhile, who pretty much worshipped the ground I walked on. He was very obese but when it came to sex, he wanted to please me more than he cared about pleasing himself. After about six months, he fell in love with me, and had lost about 200 lbs. No joking. Other women began noticing him, so I didn't feel too bad letting him go, as I knew the relationship wasn't going to last as he had too many issues that I knew would be problems in a long term relationship, so I had to let him go but we remained celibate friends for awhile.

Then one night in a disco, I met husband number two. He was tall, skinny and nerdy, not especially physically attractive by most women's standards. But, he had a wonderful sense of humor, was very generous, and very affectionate, the three things that my first husband lacked. I wanted to get to know him better, so I agreed to date him. Plus, after we dated for a couple of months, I asked him if he believed in god and he said "NO". I knew I had found the best mate for me, and after more than 40 years, I think it will last.

We are still sexually active, although not nearly as often as when we were young. I know this is a bit off topic, but the NewYorkTimes had an article recently about sex in old age, which can be anything from mutual masturbation to foreplay etc. It's all about intimacy. We are still very affectionate, the two old people who are always holding hands in public or hugging each other at home. We argue, but we never carry a grudge. Most women don't care that much about what a man looks like, but most men seem to care a lot about what a woman looks like. He still tells me that when he saw me, it was love at first sight. I still roll my eyes when he says that, but in his eyes, I am a beautiful woman, who has loved and cared for him for over forty years. And, probably due to love, I now find him more attractive at 70, compared to when we first me. There's a line from an old jazz song that I tell him quite often because there are times when he drives me crazy. "Even when I hate you, it's only because I love you."

I tend to think that today's "incels' are mostly angry young men who think they are entitled to the prettiest, sexiest woman in the room without putting any effort into making her desire him. As far as beauty goes, it doesn't seem to matter where I live now, as we have a very high rate of obesity and women who don't seem to put much effort into their appearance, but they still can get a man. They must be doing something right. I guess it's true that "beauty is in the eye of the beholder". Or maybe most men are not as fussy as we women tend to think.

I'll end by adding my condolence to lostone for the loss of his loving wife.

One more thing. When I worked as the only nurse in an assisted living facility, some of the women confided in me about the sex they were having with other residents. Some of them were in their 80s, so sexual pleasure or at least attempting it, doesn't have to stop in old age. Sadly, the remains of our Puritanical culture prevents lots of people from feeling comfortable discussing sexuality. Am I off topic too much?

 

[Elixir]

First step to becoming an incel;
Have a ready list of external factors beyond your control upon which to blame the inevitable rejection that will follow any attempt to make contact with a potential partner.
Keeping this list front of mind will ensure that you will never feel the full brunt of rejection, even as it makes that rejection a self-fulfilling prophesy.

 

[laughing dog]

I think it's interesting that only one female so far, unless I missed an earlier post, has replied to this thread.

Do alleged self-hating men count for more?

 

[thebeave]

The truth is that there are a lot of lonely women out there who are never considered ‘date’ material. They are too old or too tall or too fat or too think or too awkward or too successful or even too beautiful or too smart or too independent or whatever.

Some of them have the same hang ups lonely men have: lack of confidence, socially awkward. Don’t look like models. You know the type: real women.

Yep. My cousin has a sister-in-law who is in her mid-50's, mildly retarded, overweight, pretty plain looking, socially awkard (she gets super close and violates personal space) and talks A LOT, all of which is very tedious (in fact my cousin's mother (my aunt) who is the talkiest person I know well gets weekly phone calls from her and just can't take it anymore. She has resorted to phony "there's someone at the door, I gotta go" type comments to avoid the long calls). Much of the conversation is complaining about her difficulties in not being able to get/have a man in her life. Up until recently, she spent her adult life being cared for by her parents, but now that both are recently dead, she is on her own in living in her own apartment in an assisted type facility being funded by her inheritance and/or state funding. Its extremely likely she is still a virgin at her age, so it seems she meets the definition of an incel.

There seems to be attitude about incels in this thread that incels are just making excuses, aren't trying hard enough, can't handle a little rejection, lack confidence, etc. and if they would just quit whining and put their mind to it, they could find someone. As a woman yourself, what would suggest as a remedy for this person to free herself from the incel pity party?

 

[Toni]

The truth is that there are a lot of lonely women out there who are never considered ‘date’ material. They are too old or too tall or too fat or too think or too awkward or too successful or even too beautiful or too smart or too independent or whatever.

Some of them have the same hang ups lonely men have: lack of confidence, socially awkward. Don’t look like models. You know the type: real women.

Yep. My cousin has a sister-in-law who is in her mid-50's, mildly retarded, overweight, pretty plain looking, socially awkard (she gets super close and violates personal space) and talks A LOT, all of which is very tedious (in fact my cousin's mother (my aunt) who is the talkiest person I know well gets weekly phone calls from her and just can't take it anymore. She has resorted to phony "there's someone at the door, I gotta go" type comments to avoid the long calls). Much of the conversation is complaining about her difficulties in not being able to get/have a man in her life. Up until recently, she spent her adult life being cared for by her parents, but now that both are recently dead, she is on her own in living in her own apartment in an assisted type facility being funded by her inheritance and/or state funding. Its extremely likely she is still a virgin at her age, so it seems she meets the definition of an incel.

There seems to be attitude about incels in this thread that incels are just making excuses, aren't trying hard enough, can't handle a little rejection, lack confidence, etc. and if they would just quit whining and put their mind to it, they could find someone. As a woman yourself, what would suggest as a remedy for this person to free herself from the incel pity party?

It sounds like your cousin has a bunch of issues ( cognitive, perhaps on the autism spectrum) that have never really been addressed professionally. I would say that she could benefit from some kind of behavioral therapy, perhaps in a group setting. Difficult to access, I know and possibly too expensive but it may be available in her assisted living facility. There likely are interest groups there and perhaps she can join in and make some friends.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Can't address the movie but I do see this as a big driver of the problem. (I don't like calling it "incel" because that typically refers to the haters, not the alones that aren't haters.) It used to be that options were limited, people would see they couldn't get the ones above their level. Now, however, the dating pool is effectively infinite, there's always the hope of getting someone better and thus people lower on the desirability scale get passed over.

Yeah, gee I wonder where a short guy might get the idea that he's not wanted by a taller woman? And why won't he at least try and make the first move? Hmmmm.....

"I would put the blame on her here--she's got the unusual desires but expects him to make the first move. Women typically want men who are taller, a 5'6" man is going to consider a 5'11" woman out of their league and likely to treat his attention as unwanted, perhaps creepy."

While we're assigning blame, based on a single anecdote, could you explain what sin this young woman has committed? I don't remember a time when she lacked companionship, so it seems like things were working well for her, as well as some self confident assertive short guy. I will note that confidence and self assertion are not dependent on body type, so she was preselecting based on a character trait.

She's setting up a no-win situation and blaming him for it. She wants him to do something that in general will be unwelcome.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Yup. People don't want to admit that the current reality is that there are many men who simply don't have a chance. Sure, they might get very lucky and find someone who gets to know them first and then it develops but that's not how most couples form.

Uh, yeah that IS how most couples form. People get to know each other abd decide they like each other and a relationship grows from that.

No.

1) That excludes things like bars which have been mentioned in this thread.

2) You're looking at the past, not the present.

Sure, some people meet via dating sites. But it’s the same process: people meet, get to know each other and decide whether they want to have an ongoing relationship abd what kind of relationship,

On a dating site the less attractive guy has basically zero chance.

The people that tends to not work out for are those who think you can order up someone using some kind of mix/match menu, like take out. And those who cry that it isn’t fair that the super hot person they don’t actually know and have never met doesn’t knock on their door and suggest banging their brains out.

No, because the person they reasonably would have matched with is making the same error of aiming too high.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The truth is that there are a lot of lonely women out there who are never considered ‘date’ material. They are too old or too tall or too fat or too think or too awkward or too successful or even too beautiful or too smart or too independent or whatever.

Some of them have the same hang ups lonely men have: lack of confidence, socially awkward. Don’t look like models. You know the type: real women.

I never said it doesn't cut both ways! The same forces are at work for men and women.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

There seems to be attitude about incels in this thread that incels are just making excuses, aren't trying hard enough, can't handle a little rejection, lack confidence, etc. and if they would just quit whining and put their mind to it, they could find someone. As a woman yourself, what would suggest as a remedy for this person to free herself from the incel pity party?

Yup--those who have it easy can't comprehend that it's not easy for everyone.

 

[Toni]

There seems to be attitude about incels in this thread that incels are just making excuses, aren't trying hard enough, can't handle a little rejection, lack confidence, etc. and if they would just quit whining and put their mind to it, they could find someone. As a woman yourself, what would suggest as a remedy for this person to free herself from the incel pity party?

Yup--those who have it easy can't comprehend that it's not easy for everyone.

I think that a lot of people assume that those who are happily or at least tolerably partnered up had it easy or have it easy. I don’t think anyone here has not had their heart busted into a million little pieces a few times, at least. I can assure you all that even intelligent, well educated, thoughtful, hard working, funny, and beautiful young women have their struggles and their share of lonely days and lonely nights that turn into weeks and months and years. Not to mention broken hearts, fears, insecurities, betrayals, bad luck—all of it and more.

The biggest issue I see with those who find it difficult to find a relationship is a me/everyone else attitude. I was raised by a mother who was pretty shy—and who bitterly resented that I was not. I don’t know about how shy or not shy I am but what I found worked for me is to not worry what anyone else thought about whether I was good looking or smart or funny or fun to be with. Instead, I focused on making them feel comfortable while ignoring my own discomfort at say, initiating a conversation. In other words, I cared more about other people’s feelings than I did my own. Not everyone I’ve known has liked me. And I certainly have not liked everyone I’ve met. And that’s ok.

 

[lostone]

There seems to be attitude about incels in this thread that incels are just making excuses, aren't trying hard enough, can't handle a little rejection, lack confidence, etc. and if they would just quit whining and put their mind to it, they could find someone. As a woman yourself, what would suggest as a remedy for this person to free herself from the incel pity party?

Yup--those who have it easy can't comprehend that it's not easy for everyone.

I think that a lot of people assume that those who are happily or at least tolerably partnered up had it easy or have it easy. I don’t think anyone here has not had their heart busted into a million little pieces a few times, at least. I can assure you all that even intelligent, well educated, thoughtful, hard working, funny, and beautiful young women have their struggles and their share of lonely days and lonely nights that turn into weeks and months and years. Not to mention broken hearts, fears, insecurities, betrayals, bad luck—all of it and more.

The biggest issue I see with those who find it difficult to find a relationship is a me/everyone else attitude. I was raised by a mother who was pretty shy—and who bitterly resented that I was not. I don’t know about how shy or not shy I am but what I found worked for me is to not worry what anyone else thought about whether I was good looking or smart or funny or fun to be with. Instead, I focused on making them feel comfortable while ignoring my own discomfort at say, initiating a conversation. In other words, I cared more about other people’s feelings than I did my own. Not everyone I’ve known has liked me. And I certainly have not liked everyone I’ve met. And that’s ok.

I'm short, can be an asshole, and have stumbled and bumbled many times for many reasons. I'm not sure that I learned anything, but I did manage to get into one relationship that worked.

But then she died. All relationships end, even the good ones. It's a tough game, even for those blessed with the best physical, financial, and emotional assets.

Now I'm 82 and it's not worth the effort any longer.

 

[lostone]

We all wish we had made better choices, think we could have made better choices, regret many things we did, and try to learn from our mistakes. That takes rigorous, even withering self-examination, but yields little satisfaction.

 

[excreationist]

I remember in an incels forums I looked at there was a FAQ that talked about the idea of lowering your standards but some incels don't want to. When I was 26, people in a forum encouraged me to lower my standards...

GO OUT WITH GIRLS WHO LIKE YOU - I can’t stress this enough. When you are a super stud, then you can cherry pick. If you are a 26 year old virgin and the quirky girl in the coffee shop gives you her number, CALL HER.

I read/watched heaps of seduction/PUA material and at the age of 29 I eventually went on a date/held hands, etc. I had lowered my standards then. And now I've been married for over 10 years.
I'm a fan of this:

 

[Bronzeage]

Can't address the movie but I do see this as a big driver of the problem. (I don't like calling it "incel" because that typically refers to the haters, not the alones that aren't haters.) It used to be that options were limited, people would see they couldn't get the ones above their level. Now, however, the dating pool is effectively infinite, there's always the hope of getting someone better and thus people lower on the desirability scale get passed over.

Yeah, gee I wonder where a short guy might get the idea that he's not wanted by a taller woman? And why won't he at least try and make the first move? Hmmmm.....

"I would put the blame on her here--she's got the unusual desires but expects him to make the first move. Women typically want men who are taller, a 5'6" man is going to consider a 5'11" woman out of their league and likely to treat his attention as unwanted, perhaps creepy."

While we're assigning blame, based on a single anecdote, could you explain what sin this young woman has committed? I don't remember a time when she lacked companionship, so it seems like things were working well for her, as well as some self confident assertive short guy. I will note that confidence and self assertion are not dependent on body type, so she was preselecting based on a character trait.

She's setting up a no-win situation and blaming him for it. She wants him to do something that in general will be unwelcome.

I don't know how you define a no-win situation. I don't recall her ever lacking the companionship of a man slightly shorter than herself, so she seems to be winning and at least one guy thought he was coming out better for it.

It goes back to the ideal/available meme. Why should a man assume she is unavailable to him, based on nothing more than the difference in their respective heights? The bedrock of the incel's lament seems to be that women are defective because they won't (insert whatever desired outcome). This might be based on personal experience, or personal speculation, but which ever, it's certainly a very small data sample. On top of that, he assumes his situation is somehow unique, as if there aren't men over 5'6" who haven't been turned down more time than an Army blanket.

I believe it was Schopenhauer who posited that the driving force in life is pain and the main motivation in life is to avoid pain. We prefer being warm to being cold, fed to being hungry and all this means pleasure is actually an illusion. I don't buy this, but it makes a useful model. If an incel believes the pain of rejection, which is speculative, is worse than the pain of solitude, which is a certainty, he will convince himself there is no good reason to approach the tall woman, or probably any woman.

 

[thebeave]

There seems to be attitude about incels in this thread that incels are just making excuses, aren't trying hard enough, can't handle a little rejection, lack confidence, etc. and if they would just quit whining and put their mind to it, they could find someone. As a woman yourself, what would suggest as a remedy for this person to free herself from the incel pity party?

Yup--those who have it easy can't comprehend that it's not easy for everyone.

It's all kinda weird when you think about it. Take the example in the earlier video about the short guys. When asked what it would take for the women to consider the short guys, one woman said she might consider them if the taller men were murderers and the other women laughed and agreed. On the other hand, suppose instead of short guys, it was black guys and they went through the same sort of rejection and ridicule from the women as the short guys received, just because of their skin color. I'm sure there would be outrage here (and rightfully so) about that situation, but with the short guys the attitude is basically "<shrug> too bad...just try harder ". Height and skin color are both immutable physical characteristics, so how/why would the attitude be so completely opposite?

 

[steve_bank]

I am a knuckle dragging cave dwelling Neanderthal. And proud of it.

We pick mates by dragging women into the cave by the hair.

It makes life simpler for everybody. Learning social skills and dating rituals are not required.