Split Trump was a good president (split from: As a politician how can I serve everyone)

[southernhybrid]

I think Richard Nixon is under-rated. George W. Bush was certainly a much worse President. The insane War against Iraq cost a million lives (if we count non-American lives, which many Americans do not); and cost trillions of dollars of U.S. treasure. The war was fought over lies -- lies that were known by the liars to be lies. Wolfowitz thought war would be fun; Bolton never saw an Arab he didn't want to kill; the aging Rumsfeld knew it was his last chance to test new theories of warfare. Cheney probably literally pursued the War because of the opportunities to enrich his buddies at Halliburton, Carlyle Group, etc. Bush was just a hapless puppet, far too naive and stupid to function as Potus.

In addition to the million lives and trillion dollars wasted in Iraq, the foolishness led to failure in Afghanistan, and chaos throughout the Arab world, chaos still reverberating two decades later. The Katrina disaster and especially the bungled response by Bush's White House cemented his status as the Worst President ever prior to the Malignant Narcissist.

In many ways, Nixon was a GOOD President. He cooled tensions with both the Soviets and China, and ended the War in Vietnam. Unlike Trump and Cheney -- whose goals were personal enrichment -- Nixon was a patriot who saw the Presidency as his chance to contribute positively. He had the gumption to revoke America's 40 year-old commitment to selling gold at a statutory price. (Can you imagine Rand Paul or any of the Ilk having the gumption to do that? First they'd connive to buy billions in gold for their family and friends.) And don't forget that Nixon pushed -- against the wishes of his own party -- for a socialized healthcare program that was MORE progressive than Obamacare! (It failed when Demos thought it not progressive not. Instead Dems had to wait decades to get the watered-down Obamacare: especially watered down since the vote of DINO Lieberman (Senator for Aetna) was needed to break the QOPAnon filibuster.)

It is said that Nixon's criminality reduced respect for the institution, but six years later Ronald Reagan was elected, the man who did far FAR more damage to America than Nixon ever did. And some experts regard LBJ as more corrupt than Nixon, just clever enough to avoid getting caught.

It's pretty clear who the five worst Presidents since Warren Harding were:

#1 Donald Trump​

#2 George W. Bush​

tied for #3-4-5 Ronald Reagan​

tied for #3-4-5 Richard Nixon​

tied for #3-4-5 Lyndon Johnson​

#6? John F. Kennedy​

But the tie for #3-4-5 isn't easy to adjudicate.

I have to disagree with you about LBJ. He accomplished many positive things including the start of Medicare, Medicaid, Food Stamps, the civl rights movement was upheld, supported improvements in education, helped with the desegregation of schools, among other things. His biggest failure was not being able to end the Viet Nam War, but let's not forget that it was JFK who sent the advisors who influenced our engagement in that war, in an attempt to slow the spread of communism. No president is as great as we sometimes think, but I consider LBJ's accomplishments as some of the best in my lifetime. I'm not so sure that Clinton was that great of a president, although he was very popular, despite being impeached for lying under oath. I think LBJ was a much better president compared to Clinton. I've often thought that LBJ didn't run for another term because he was so disappointed in himself for not being able to end the war in Viet Nam. Nixon ended it, but it sure took him long enough, as I still have strong memories of protesting him at a rally when he came to my city.

But, since we're discussing the horrible presidency of Trump, let me add a link to a column by David French that I read this morning. I hope some of you will read it.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/01/...cyHXlTDSeQMOSUnUNNaAqcEPUGCN7s&smid=url-share

"The more I consider the challenge posed by Christian nationalism, the more I think most observers and critics are paying too much attention to the wrong group of Christian nationalists. We mainly think of Christian nationalism as a theology or at least as a philosophy. In reality, the Christian nationalist movement that actually matters is rooted in emotion and ostensibly divine revelation, and it’s that emotional and spiritual movement that so stubbornly clings to Donald Trump.
Three related stories illustrate the challenge.
First, Katherine Stewart wrote a disturbing report for The New Republic about the latest iteration of the ReAwaken America Tour, a radical right-wing road show sponsored by Charisma News, a Pentecostal Christian publication. The tour has attracted national attention, including in The Times, and features a collection of the far right’s most notorious conspiracy theorists and Christian populists.
The rhetoric at these events, which often attract crowds of thousands, is unhinged. There, as Stewart reported, you’ll hear a pastor named Mark Burns declare, “This is a God nation, this is a Jesus nation, and you will never take my God and my gun out of this nation.” You’ll also hear him say, “I have come ready to declare war on Satan and every race-baiting Democrat that tries to destroy our way of life here in the United States of America.” You’ll hear the right-wing radio host Stew Peters call for “Nuremberg Trials 2.0” and death for Anthony Fauci and Hunter Biden. The same speaker taunted the Fulton County, Ga., prosecutor Fani Willis by shouting: “Big Fani. Big fat Fani. Big fat Black Fani Willis.”
Then there’s Thursday’s report in The Times describing how an anti-Trump conservative group with close ties to the Club for Growth is finding that virtually nothing is shaking Trump voters’ confidence in Trump. As the group wrote in a memo to donors, “Every traditional postproduction ad attacking President Trump either backfired or produced no impact on his ballot support and favorability.” Even video evidence of Trump making “liberal” or “stupid” comments failed to shake supporters’ faith in him."

I also read the link in the link from The New Republic, even some conservatives are very concerned about this movement of White Christian Nationalists.

 

[Swammerdami]

I have to disagree with you about LBJ. He accomplished many positive things including the start of Medicare, Medicaid, Food Stamps, the civl rights movement was upheld, supported improvements in education, helped with the desegregation of schools, among other things. His biggest failure was not being able to end the Viet Nam War, but let's not forget that it was JFK who sent the advisors who influenced our engagement in that war

I wrote to up-grade Nixon, not to down-grade Johnson. What Cheney and Rumsfeld did in Iraq is perhaps the greatest crime ever perpetrated in the U.S.A.; how can it be compared with a few clumsy burglaries? BTW, there IS reason to think that the 1960 election was stolen from Nixon by malfeasance in Illinois and Texas. But Nixon knew that litigating this would be bad for America, and did the patriotic thing.

BTW, support for the French in their war against Vietnam began under Truman; the U.S. bankrolled the French with billions of dollars in the early 1950's. But the large bulk of U.S. casualties came during LBJ's terms. U.S. involvement dropped after Nixon's election.

Seymour Hersh claims that JFK insiders relate JFK plans to dramatically reduce involvement in Vietnam, but he wanted to wait until after the 1964 election! Unfortunately he neglected to explain this to his V.P.

But, since we're discussing the horrible presidency of Trump, let me add a link to a column by David French that I read this morning. I hope some of you will read it.

I did read the column. It offered an elightening perspective I'd not heard of before.

Arguments about the proper role of virtue in the public square, for example, or arguments over the proper balance between order and liberty, are helpless in the face of prophecies, like the declarations from Christian “apostles” that Donald Trump is God’s appointed leader, destined to save the nation from destruction. Sometimes there’s no need for a prophet to deliver the message. Instead, Christians will claim that the Holy Spirit spoke to them directly. As one longtime friend told me, “David, I was with you on opposing Trump until the Holy Spirit told me that God had appointed him to lead.”

Several weeks ago, I wrote about the “rage and joy” of MAGA America. Outsiders see the rage and hatred directed at them and miss that a key part of Trump’s appeal is the joy and fellowship that Trump supporters feel with each other. But there’s one last element that cements that bond with Trump: faith, including a burning sense of certainty that by supporting him, they are instruments of God’s divine plan.

In any event, America is heading for an abyss with no precedents that come to mind except the Civil War and the rise of Naziism in 1930's Germany. Our own Kristallnacht is coming; what form will it take?

 

[Elixir]

Our own Kristallnacht is coming; what form will it take?

If Trump loses the '24 election, the form taken by the inevitable backlash could be controlled by the winning Party. There will be attempts in December to prevent States' certifications, and in January to prevent the official certification of States' counts. I would hope that by now, Democrats would be wise enough to foresee that violence will be one of the few tools remaining for MAGAts, and will be prepared to quash it with lethal force, both on the State and Federal fronts. Because if there are enough dust-ups in December at Statehouses that go unmet with overwhelming force, the violence will only grow.
If, OTOH, it becomes clear in December that if you go out to violently act out for Trump, there is a good chance that you won't be home for dinner tonight - or ever again - I think the violence will die down by January.

If Trump "wins" (successfully cheats) in 2024, there will nothing to be done about it except either leave (my plan), pledge your fealty to Dear Leader (nope) or go underground (I'm too old to do that again). I don't want to hang around to watch the Country of my birth turned into a third world shithole by millions of brain damaged morons supporting a psychopathic narcissistic kleptocrat.

 

[Bronzeage]

@NightHawkBuzz; -- The Board is lucky to have someone as intelligent and articulate as yourself help us understand the appeal of Donald Trump.

I asked you some specific questions. Will you help us by answering them?

Or is your worship of Donald Trump similar to worship of Jesus Christ -- you know in your heart he is messiah and savior, and the factual queries of heretics must not be allowed to interfere with your faith?

The problem with trying to understand the appeal of Trump is any analysis divides his supporters into two distinct groups, the disingenuous and the stupid. This immediately leads to a difficult situation when questioning a Trump supporter because which group they occupy is not always readily apparent. It's possible to be a mixture of each. The stupid exhibit extreme confirmation bias and the disingenuous are happy to feed this bias, knowing this keeps the Trump base from asking the obvious questions and possibly becoming less stupid.

Both groups resent any insinuation they are stupid and resent even more being confronted with contradictions and conflicts within their explanations.

The rules of this forum discourage blunting labeling a fellow forum member as lying or stupid, but there are artful ways to express the sentiment. In any case, once the discussion arrives at this point, it's pretty much over.

 

[hurtinbuckaroo]

If Trump is found guilty in court, sentenced to prison, and dragged out of court by a pack of burly baliffs, I will declare it a national holiday. For years afterwards, people will be asking, "Where were you when Trump was found guilty and sentenced to prison?". "Tell us again Grandpa how you nearly laughed to death when Trump was dragged out of court to prison!".

He’ll be released into the custody of the Secret Service until his appeals are exhausted.

 

[Elixir]

once the discussion arrives at this point, it's pretty much over.

Maybe. There’s still a chance that @NightHawkBuzz could show up here and articulate the virtues of Donald Trump as a President, and open our eyes to a perspective we have not yet considered.

 

[southernhybrid]

I have to disagree with you about LBJ. He accomplished many positive things including the start of Medicare, Medicaid, Food Stamps, the civl rights movement was upheld, supported improvements in education, helped with the desegregation of schools, among other things. His biggest failure was not being able to end the Viet Nam War, but let's not forget that it was JFK who sent the advisors who influenced our engagement in that war

I wrote to up-grade Nixon, not to down-grade Johnson. What Cheney and Rumsfeld did in Iraq is perhaps the greatest crime ever perpetrated in the U.S.A.; how can it be compared with a few clumsy burglaries? BTW, there IS reason to think that the 1960 election was stolen from Nixon by malfeasance in Illinois and Texas. But Nixon knew that litigating this would be bad for America, and did the patriotic thing.

BTW, support for the French in their war against Vietnam began under Truman; the U.S. bankrolled the French with billions of dollars in the early 1950's. But the large bulk of U.S. casualties came during LBJ's terms. U.S. involvement dropped after Nixon's election.

Seymour Hersh claims that JFK insiders relate JFK plans to dramatically reduce involvement in Vietnam, but he wanted to wait until after the 1964 election! Unfortunately he neglected to explain this to his V.P.

But, since we're discussing the horrible presidency of Trump, let me add a link to a column by David French that I read this morning. I hope some of you will read it.

I did read the column. It offered an elightening perspective I'd not heard of before.

Arguments about the proper role of virtue in the public square, for example, or arguments over the proper balance between order and liberty, are helpless in the face of prophecies, like the declarations from Christian “apostles” that Donald Trump is God’s appointed leader, destined to save the nation from destruction. Sometimes there’s no need for a prophet to deliver the message. Instead, Christians will claim that the Holy Spirit spoke to them directly. As one longtime friend told me, “David, I was with you on opposing Trump until the Holy Spirit told me that God had appointed him to lead.”

Several weeks ago, I wrote about the “rage and joy” of MAGA America. Outsiders see the rage and hatred directed at them and miss that a key part of Trump’s appeal is the joy and fellowship that Trump supporters feel with each other. But there’s one last element that cements that bond with Trump: faith, including a burning sense of certainty that by supporting him, they are instruments of God’s divine plan.

In any event, America is heading for an abyss with no precedents that come to mind except the Civil War and the rise of Naziism in 1930's Germany. Our own Kristallnacht is coming; what form will it take?

I don't disagree totally about Nixon, but I don't see him as beneficial as you do. You didn't mention that the EPA was started under Nixon, so we could claim he was the first president who cared about the environment. I do remember how thick with the smog the New York City skyline was during my youth, when on a good day, I could see the Empire State Building from my bedroom window. Still, imo, he was a real sleaze ball who was wrapped up in his own power. He didn't end the war until the majority of Americans, not just we young boomers, insisted that it be over. But, of course, compared to Trump, he was a Saint.

I think LBJ, and Carter were both under rated presidents. I uprated LBJ. You uprated Nixon.

Good that you read that frightening article. The mythological Jesus would be turning over in his grave if he knew how distorted his idealistic, gospel message has become. Trump is their savior. Guns are as important as Jesus so don't leave home without them. But, what would Jesus carry is still unanswered.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

Nixon and the EPA. Yes, in Ohio, the Cuyohoga river caught fire. Again! Outrage across the nation forced change. And some of today's GOP presidential candidates want to eliminate the EPA.

 

[Bronzeage]

once the discussion arrives at this point, it's pretty much over.

Maybe. There’s still a chance that @NightHawkBuzz could show up here and articulate the virtues of Donald Trump as a President, and open our eyes to a perspective we have not yet considered.

I'm pretty sure the list of Donald Trump's virtues has been exhausted.

 

[ideologyhunter]

He did usher Herman Cain off the scene. But so much work remains to be done.

 

[pood]

Trump is distinguished by one feat. He is the only President who failed to win the majority of votes cast in two consecutive elections.

Nope. In 1824, John Quincy Adams lost both the popular vote AND the electoral vote — and still won the presidency. Yes, that can, and did, happen. In 1828, he ran for re-election, and lost both the popular and electoral vote and lost the election to Andrew Jackson. So his record is even worse than Trump’s in this regard. At least Trump won the elctoral vote once.

 

[pood]

Also, in 1888 and 1892, Benjamin Harrison duplicated Trump’s feat. In 1888, he lost the popular vote but won the electoral vote and was elected. Running for re-election in 1892, he lost both the popular and electoral votes, and was defeated.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I see no point in arguing Trump Good/Trump Bad. There's not enough contact between my reading/experience and a Trump supporter's outlook to get a sensible discussion going. This is one great accomplishment of the Right, since the mid-60s. They've heaped so much vitriol on the "left-wing media" that they have created a base that feeds on right wing propaganda exclusively. When a laughably obvious conman like Trump can waddle into a leadership position, something is deranged in the country.
I will wager that, if our present OP creator is anything like the Trumpies I know, then most of the following is true about him (I'll use he/him here to save time.)

I do not think he's like a typical Trumpet--they wouldn't be here asking the questions he's asking.

 

[Elixir]

He created many good laws that helped the country.

Presidents aren't supposed to create laws at all; That's the role of the legislative branch.

But I am prepared to consider the possibility that you're right, if you can give me three (which is far fewer than "many") examples of laws Trump "created", and show how those laws helped the country.

I would but there controversial so they would anger people on here and I don't want anyone trying to attack me.

I’ll protect you! And there are others who will join me. Let ‘er rip, Buzz! If you really believe in the good of DJT, don’t be hesitant to share what’s so good. You might get disagreement, but that’s not attack, and you have weathered disagreement already. Besides, personal attacks are not permitted here. That’s why we have so many posters here who deserve to be attacked; it’s a safe zone!
Have you not noticed how polite everyone is?

So what’s the hangup?

 

[NightHawkBuzz]

He created many good laws that helped the country.

Presidents aren't supposed to create laws at all; That's the role of the legislative branch.

But I am prepared to consider the possibility that you're right, if you can give me three (which is far fewer than "many") examples of laws Trump "created", and show how those laws helped the country.

I would but there controversial so they would anger people on here and I don't want anyone trying to attack me.

I’ll protect you! And there are others who will join me. Let ‘er rip, Buzz! If you really believe in the good of DJT, don’t be hesitant to share what’s so good. You might get disagreement, but that’s not attack, and you have weathered disagreement already. Besides, personal attacks are not permitted here. That’s why we have so many posters here who deserve to be attacked; it’s a safe zone!
Have you not noticed how polite everyone is?

So what’s the hangup?

Okay well I will speak to three things he said he will try to pass in his next term because I have been following them. He has talked about passing these things that I feel will help the country.

1. Passing a law that men and women are the only genders recognized by the U.S government and they are assigned at birth
2. Banning gender affirming care for minors.
3. Banning Transgender athletes from playing in women's sports.

These are good laws I feel will help the country and these are things that I want to accomplish in politics as well.

 

[Patooka]

He created many good laws that helped the country.

Presidents aren't supposed to create laws at all; That's the role of the legislative branch.

But I am prepared to consider the possibility that you're right, if you can give me three (which is far fewer than "many") examples of laws Trump "created", and show how those laws helped the country.

I would but there controversial so they would anger people on here and I don't want anyone trying to attack me.

I’ll protect you! And there are others who will join me. Let ‘er rip, Buzz! If you really believe in the good of DJT, don’t be hesitant to share what’s so good. You might get disagreement, but that’s not attack, and you have weathered disagreement already. Besides, personal attacks are not permitted here. That’s why we have so many posters here who deserve to be attacked; it’s a safe zone!
Have you not noticed how polite everyone is?

So what’s the hangup?

Okay well I will speak to three things he said he will try to pass in his next term because I have been following them. He has talked about passing these things that I feel will help the country.

1. Passing a law that men and women are the only genders recognized by the U.S government and they are assigned at birth
2. Banning gender affirming care for minors.
3. Banning Transgender athletes from playing in women's sports.

These are good laws I feel will help the country and these are things that I want to accomplish in politics as well.

Just to be clear, that's not what Bilby asked. What legislation was passed during Trump's Presidency that you believed helped the country?

 

[bigfield]

He created many good laws that helped the country.

Presidents aren't supposed to create laws at all; That's the role of the legislative branch.

But I am prepared to consider the possibility that you're right, if you can give me three (which is far fewer than "many") examples of laws Trump "created", and show how those laws helped the country.

I would but there controversial so they would anger people on here and I don't want anyone trying to attack me.

I’ll protect you! And there are others who will join me. Let ‘er rip, Buzz! If you really believe in the good of DJT, don’t be hesitant to share what’s so good. You might get disagreement, but that’s not attack, and you have weathered disagreement already. Besides, personal attacks are not permitted here. That’s why we have so many posters here who deserve to be attacked; it’s a safe zone!
Have you not noticed how polite everyone is?

So what’s the hangup?

Okay well I will speak to three things he said he will try to pass in his next term because I have been following them. He has talked about passing these things that I feel will help the country.

1. Passing a law that men and women are the only genders recognized by the U.S government and they are assigned at birth
2. Banning gender affirming care for minors.
3. Banning Transgender athletes from playing in women's sports.

These are good laws I feel will help the country and these are things that I want to accomplish in politics as well.

It's becoming clearer who NightHawkBuzz considers good people and bad people.

 

[Spacetime Inhabitant]

He created many good laws that helped the country.

Presidents aren't supposed to create laws at all; That's the role of the legislative branch.

But I am prepared to consider the possibility that you're right, if you can give me three (which is far fewer than "many") examples of laws Trump "created", and show how those laws helped the country.

I would but there controversial so they would anger people on here and I don't want anyone trying to attack me.

I’ll protect you! And there are others who will join me. Let ‘er rip, Buzz! If you really believe in the good of DJT, don’t be hesitant to share what’s so good. You might get disagreement, but that’s not attack, and you have weathered disagreement already. Besides, personal attacks are not permitted here. That’s why we have so many posters here who deserve to be attacked; it’s a safe zone!
Have you not noticed how polite everyone is?

So what’s the hangup?

Okay well I will speak to three things he said he will try to pass in his next term because I have been following them. He has talked about passing these things that I feel will help the country.

1. Passing a law that men and women are the only genders recognized by the U.S government and they are assigned at birth
2. Banning gender affirming care for minors.
3. Banning Transgender athletes from playing in women's sports.

These are good laws I feel will help the country and these are things that I want to accomplish in politics as well.

I disagree that these would be good laws, and if we take as a hypothetical that they would be good laws, they are still pissant stuff that would be no major help in any way for the economy or society of the USA. Also, as others have said, they are not laws that Trump passed anyway.

 

[bilby]

He created many good laws that helped the country.

Presidents aren't supposed to create laws at all; That's the role of the legislative branch.

But I am prepared to consider the possibility that you're right, if you can give me three (which is far fewer than "many") examples of laws Trump "created", and show how those laws helped the country.

I would but there controversial so they would anger people on here and I don't want anyone trying to attack me.

I’ll protect you! And there are others who will join me. Let ‘er rip, Buzz! If you really believe in the good of DJT, don’t be hesitant to share what’s so good. You might get disagreement, but that’s not attack, and you have weathered disagreement already. Besides, personal attacks are not permitted here. That’s why we have so many posters here who deserve to be attacked; it’s a safe zone!
Have you not noticed how polite everyone is?

So what’s the hangup?

Okay well I will speak to three things he said he will try to pass in his next term because I have been following them. He has talked about passing these things that I feel will help the country.

1. Passing a law that men and women are the only genders recognized by the U.S government and they are assigned at birth
2. Banning gender affirming care for minors.
3. Banning Transgender athletes from playing in women's sports.

These are good laws I feel will help the country and these are things that I want to accomplish in politics as well.

Regardless of whether or not these are good laws, it's unquestionably true that they're not laws he "created" when President.

You claimed:

He created many good laws that helped the country.

"Created" is past tense; Promises and plans for the future are not laws he has created, and frankly it's a fool's game to expect any politician to enact everything he merely promises to enact.

So, again, your challenge is:

... give me three (which is far fewer than "many") examples of laws Trump "created", and show how those laws helped the country.

So far you remain at zero out of three.

 

[Worldtraveller]

He created many good laws that helped the country.

Presidents aren't supposed to create laws at all; That's the role of the legislative branch.

But I am prepared to consider the possibility that you're right, if you can give me three (which is far fewer than "many") examples of laws Trump "created", and show how those laws helped the country.

I would but there controversial so they would anger people on here and I don't want anyone trying to attack me.

I’ll protect you! And there are others who will join me. Let ‘er rip, Buzz! If you really believe in the good of DJT, don’t be hesitant to share what’s so good. You might get disagreement, but that’s not attack, and you have weathered disagreement already. Besides, personal attacks are not permitted here. That’s why we have so many posters here who deserve to be attacked; it’s a safe zone!
Have you not noticed how polite everyone is?

So what’s the hangup?

Okay well I will speak to three things he said he will try to pass in his next term because I have been following them. He has talked about passing these things that I feel will help the country.

1. Passing a law that men and women are the only genders recognized by the U.S government and they are assigned at birth
2. Banning gender affirming care for minors.
3. Banning Transgender athletes from playing in women's sports.

These are good laws I feel will help the country and these are things that I want to accomplish in politics as well.

So you're a transphobe. That explains why you're ok with all the other stuff he does (racism, sexism, etc.).