Black Woman calling a White Woman a "Karen"

[Arctish]

Calling a woman a bitch or cunt is misogyny. Call her a Karen and you’re cool and witty. But only if she’s White.

If that's all you got out of this discussion, well, at least you got the first part right.

 

[Toni]

When I hear someone called a "Karen", I do not think of a white woman or someone behaving pooly. My immediate impulse is to think the person in question is from  Karen_people.

Really? That's your first impulse? You just assume that it's referring to a little-known and very small group of people in Myanmar?

Maybe, sure, maybe you were already familiar with them and that really is the first thought that pops into your head. I'm inclined to think it's more of a shield to deflect with, and is something you have learned about after "Karen" became a common meme. But I'm not psychic, so I could be wrong.

I’ve been aware of the Karen people for a decade or two, at least. I think I’m pretty average.

I find the term as used in this thread and in current pop culture to be a bit offensive but that is the point, I suppose. Bitch is so much more appropriate, though, and does not malign an entire generation of white women for behavior that is far from generation specific.

 

[ruby sparks]

To me, the question of whether a woman (or anyone) behaving in a certain (very bad) way should be subject to this pejorative or not is not the only issue. If someone behaves badly in certain ways, then perhaps it's deserved, so in that sense ronburgundy and others are right, that the word itself, even if a pejorative, is not so problematic of itself and can be deserved, and it's more to do with the context it's used in. But the thing about pejorative terms that become popular tropes, perhaps especially for women, is that they can very easily start to be misused, usually by men but not necessarily, sometimes to try to demean or silence women. This has been going on since time immemorial. There's a fair bit of woman-maligning going on around this, imo, and it doesn't always seem to the case that the behaviour reasonably warrants it.

 

[KeepTalking]

To me, the question of whether a woman (or anyone) behaving in a certain (very bad) way should be subject to this pejorative or not is not the only issue. If someone behaves badly in certain ways, then perhaps it's deserved, so in that sense ronburgundy and others are right, that the word itself, even if a pejorative, is not so problematic of itself and can be deserved, and it's more to do with the context it's used in. But the thing about pejorative terms that become popular tropes, perhaps especially for women, is that they can very easily start to be misused, usually by men but not necessarily, sometimes to try to demean or silence women. This has been going on since time immemorial. There's a fair bit of woman-maligning going on around this, imo, and it doesn't always seem to the case that the behaviour reasonably warrants it.

I have to agree with this, as I saw the perfect example of this happening yesterday. One of the protestors at the Portland protests referred to the group of mothers who have been joining the protests as a bunch of Karens, or similar wording. The rest of the diatribe against them being at the protests made it apparent that he was using "Karens" to mean "white women". So, while it isn't the case that it has always been used to refer to "white women" in a racist and/or sexist manner. There are definitely some who are beginning to do so.

 

[repoman]

Those astroturfed "moms" are the same protestors that have been there from the beginning. They have probably more abortions than children.

 

[ruby sparks]

They have probably more abortions than children.

Definitely Karens then.

 

[Arctish]

Those astroturfed "moms" are the same protestors that have been there from the beginning. They have probably more abortions than children.

Assuming you're correct in your assessment, are we supposed to think badly of them for either of those things? If so, why?

 

[ronburgundy]

.snipped irrational hissy fit

People are not [removed] because they don't agree with you. (snip).

No, it's clear that I exposed the hypocrisy and logical contradiction in your argument an that you cannot give a rational reply or offer a single relevant fact, so "ignore" is your only option to avoid further humiliation.

 

[Angry Floof]

.snipped irrational hissy fit

People are not [removed] because they don't agree with you.(snip).

No, it's clear that I exposed the hypocrisy and logical contradiction in your argument an that you cannot give a rational reply or offer a single relevant fact, so "ignore" is your only option to avoid further humiliation.

I'm not the least bit humiliated by anything you've said, but it's clear that anything I do say is going to trigger.

 

[ronburgundy]

No, it's clear that I exposed the hypocrisy and logical contradiction in your argument an that you cannot give a rational reply or offer a single relevant fact, so "ignore" is your only option to avoid further humiliation.

I'm not the least bit humiliated by anything you've said, but it's clear that anything I do say is going to trigger.

Your posts have been nothing but personal attacks and insults (calling me uneducated and heartless), you just do it passive aggressively.

 

[Angry Floof]

No, it's clear that I exposed the hypocrisy and logical contradiction in your argument an that you cannot give a rational reply or offer a single relevant fact, so "ignore" is your only option to avoid further humiliation.

I'm not the least bit humiliated by anything you've said, but it's clear that anything I do say is going to trigger.

Your posts have been nothing but personal attacks and insults (calling me uneducated and heartless), you just do it passive aggressively.

Excuse me, you started with the insults here! And you are always free to not engage me at all. No one owes you shit here, but I have a feeling you're going to continue to attack and harass me with more childish demands and insults. Grow up and walk away if you don't like my posts or my comments about no one in particular. It's not about you. No one is obligated to cater to your hurt feelings, especially when you fucking started the personal insults and expected what in return? Respect? lol. Die mad about it.

 

[ronburgundy]

Your posts have been nothing but personal attacks and insults (calling me uneducated and heartless), you just do it passive aggressively.

Excuse me, you started with the insults here! And you are always free to not engage me at all. No one owes you shit here, but I have a feeling you're going to continue to attack and harass me with more childish demands and insults. Grow up and walk away if you don't like my posts or my comments about no one in particular. It's not about you. No one is obligated to cater to your hurt feelings, especially when you fucking started the personal insults and expected what in return? Respect? lol. Die mad about it.

Your screen name is perfectly suited since your post to everyone you disagree with are filled with triggered anger, hate, and insults, and devoid of fact or reason. I exposed the total lack of logic in your post and you insulted me, so I stooped to your standard level.

Your first post in this thread was to personally attack everyone who was white or male for having an opinion on this issue, without any regard for the content of people's ideas.

 

[Angry Floof]

Your posts have been nothing but personal attacks and insults (calling me uneducated and heartless), you just do it passive aggressively.

Excuse me, you started with the insults here! And you are always free to not engage me at all. No one owes you shit here, but I have a feeling you're going to continue to attack and harass me with more childish demands and insults. Grow up and walk away if you don't like my posts or my comments about no one in particular. It's not about you. No one is obligated to cater to your hurt feelings, especially when you fucking started the personal insults and expected what in return? Respect? lol. Die mad about it.

Your screen name is perfectly suited since your every post to everyone you disagree with is filled with triggered anger, hate, and insults, and devoid of fact or reason.

I don't feel the least bit angry or hateful. Stop projecting, and I'm going to ask you now to stop responding to me at all. There is nothing productive in it and it's starting to feel like harassment. Please stop. I'm not apologizing or giving in to whatever your childish demands are underneath your obvious hate and anger, so just stop already.

I exposed the total lack of logic in your post and you insulted me, so I stooped to your standard level.

Yeah, that's the ticket! You had no choice but to insult me personally when I did NOT insult you personally. Got it!

Now leave me alone please. I'm not changing my opinion for you.

 

[ronburgundy]

Your screen name is perfectly suited since your every post to everyone you disagree with is filled with triggered anger, hate, and insults, and devoid of fact or reason.

I don't feel the least bit angry or hateful. Stop projecting, and I'm going to ask you now to stop responding to me at all. There is nothing productive in it and it's starting to feel like harassment. Please stop. I'm not apologizing or giving in to whatever your childish demands are underneath your obvious hate and anger, so just stop already.

I exposed the total lack of logic in your post and you insulted me, so I stooped to your standard level.

Yeah, that's the ticket! You had no choice but to insult me personally when I did NOT insult you personally. Got it!

.

Ah, so telling a person that they lack "a clue, or a heart, or an education, or all of the above" is not an insult? And you said that before I said anything about you personally, only about your arguments. It's the same post where you said "fuck" twice to show how not at all angry you are.

Now leave me alone please. I'm not changing my opinion for you.

No one is buying your pathetic attempts to claim victimization. As long as you keep engaging in racist and sexist personal attacks, fallacious thinking, and ignoring of facts I'll be here exposing your sad, adolescent rhetoric.

 

[Angry Floof]

I don't feel the least bit angry or hateful. Stop projecting, and I'm going to ask you now to stop responding to me at all. There is nothing productive in it and it's starting to feel like harassment. Please stop. I'm not apologizing or giving in to whatever your childish demands are underneath your obvious hate and anger, so just stop already.


Yeah, that's the ticket! You had no choice but to insult me personally when I did NOT insult you personally. Got it!

.

Ah, so telling a person that they lack "a clue, or a heart, or an education, or all of the above" is not an insult? And you said that before I said anything about you personally, only about your arguments. It's the same post where you said "fuck" twice to show how not at all angry you are.

Are you really trying to say that comment was directed at you personally? Really? Do you not understand the hypothetical "you"? Here's what I posted:

And no, it is not a racial slur. For fuck's sake. You can stop Karening at any time by getting a clue, or a heart, or an education, or all of the above, but you can't take off your skin. Karen's white skin is only relevant to the fact that she's a fucking racist who uses her white privilege to harass black people for no other reason than they are black and she has been indoctrinated to believe they are all criminals and she's allowed to abuse them because of their skin color.

I can't help it if you related so strongly to that that you interpreted it as directed at you. It sure as hell wasn't. It was directed at white privilege and people who harass brown people simply because they can. Do you do that? Is all this drama because of that hypothetical "you" that you interpreted as literally directed at you?

Now leave me alone please. I'm not changing my opinion for you.

No one is buying your pathetic attempts to claim victimization. As long as you keep engaging in racist and sexist personal attacks, fallacious thinking, and ignoring of facts I'll be here exposing your sad, adolescent rhetoric.

It doesn't matter what I say, you're going to twist it to fit your own prejudices no matter what. And again, you're always free to stop responding to my posts instead of allowing things people say on the internet that are not about you personally to trigger you to this level of outrage.

 

[ronburgundy]

Are you really trying to say that comment was directed at you personally? Really? Do you not understand the hypothetical "you"? Here's what I posted:

And no, it is not a racial slur. For fuck's sake. You can stop Karening at any time by getting a clue, or a heart, or an education, or all of the above, but you can't take off your skin. Karen's white skin is only relevant to the fact that she's a fucking racist who uses her white privilege to harass black people for no other reason than they are black and she has been indoctrinated to believe they are all criminals and she's allowed to abuse them because of their skin color.

I can't help it if you related so strongly to that that you interpreted it as directed at you. It sure as hell wasn't. It was directed at white privilege and people who harass brown people simply because they can. Do you do that? Is all this drama because of that hypothetical "you" that you interpreted as literally directed at you?

Your first post in the thread attacked all thread posters of particular race and sex and used derogatory slang against their race and sex ("pasty white sausage fest", which is equivalent to saying "burnt black taco fest" to describe black female posters), discounting their opinions as "irrelevant at best" without regard to content. Then you accused other posters who disagreed with you of "Karening around here". So, when you said in direct response to me, "You can stop Karening at any time by getting a clue, or a heart, or an education, or all of the above", I took it to be a personal insult, not b/c it applied to me but b/c personal attacks on other posters was what you had repeatedly done.

Also, my responding "insult" was a description of your actions and how you were "being" and thus not a personal trait, and thus is less insulting than you claiming no one here can have an relevant idea about this factual issue if they are the wrong sex or race. And my "insult" that was removed comprised about 0.5% of my comments to you, whose facts and logic you were incapable of responding to, so now you are using the insult reacting to your racism and sexism as an excuse.

Now leave me alone please. I'm not changing my opinion for you.

No one is buying your pathetic attempts to claim victimization. As long as you keep engaging in racist and sexist personal attacks, fallacious thinking, and ignoring of facts I'll be here exposing your sad, adolescent rhetoric.

It doesn't matter what I say, you're going to twist it to fit your own prejudices no matter what. And again, you're always free to stop responding to my posts instead of allowing things people say on the internet that are not about you personally to trigger you to this level of outrage.

You're the one expressing outrage by cursing an derogatorily attacking people's race and sex as a basis to dismiss their ideas. I merely accurately described how you were behaving by doubling down on such obviously illogical and self contradictory arguments. And what appears to your mind as "twisting" is commonly referred to as applying logic. All you have to do to get me to stop replying to you is to stop replying to me with more irrational bullshit and excuses why you won't address the fact that your comments presume that skin color and sex determine whether one can offer relevant facts about a factual issue.

 

[Angry Floof]

Your first post in the thread attacked all thread posters of particular race and sex and used derogatory slang against their race and sex ("pasty white sausage fest", which is equivalent to saying "burnt black taco fest" to describe black female posters), discounting their opinions as "irrelevant at best" without regard to content. Then you accused other posters who disagreed with you of "Karening around here". So, when you said in direct response to me, "You can stop Karening at any time by getting a clue, or a heart, or an education, or all of the above", I took it to be a personal insult, not b/c it applied to me but b/c personal attacks on other posters was what you had repeatedly done.

Also, my responding "insult" was a description of your actions and how you were "being" and thus not a personal trait, and thus is less insulting than you claiming no one here can have an relevant idea about this factual issue if they are the wrong sex or race. And my "insult" that was removed comprised about 0.5% of my comments to you, whose facts and logic you were incapable of responding to, so now you are using the insult reacting to your racism and sexism as an excuse.

Now leave me alone please. I'm not changing my opinion for you.

No one is buying your pathetic attempts to claim victimization. As long as you keep engaging in racist and sexist personal attacks, fallacious thinking, and ignoring of facts I'll be here exposing your sad, adolescent rhetoric.

It doesn't matter what I say, you're going to twist it to fit your own prejudices no matter what. And again, you're always free to stop responding to my posts instead of allowing things people say on the internet that are not about you personally to trigger you to this level of outrage.

You're the one expressing outrage by cursing an derogatorily attacking people's race and sex as a basis to dismiss their ideas. I merely accurately described how you were behaving by doubling down on such obviously illogical and self contradictory arguments. And what appears to your mind as "twisting" is commonly referred to as applying logic. All you have to do to get me to stop replying to you is to stop replying to me with more irrational bullshit and excuses why you won't address the fact that your comments presume that skin color and sex determine whether one can offer relevant facts about a factual issue.

My comments presume nothing of the sort. It could not be clearer that we are talking about behavior. The fact that that behavior comes overwhelmingly from a certain demographic doesn't mean that criticizing racist behavior is itself racist. But go ahead and keep tap dancing and throwing temper tantrums and projecting and being upset and triggered and feeling personally attacked by comments not directed at you.

 

[Gun Nut]

I think it is deflection from a higher percentage of blacks being assholes to retail employees. HOWEVER, the vast majority of all people, black and white are reasonably nice to retail workers.

So, by the law of large numbers you can find enough psycho customers to fill hard drives full of video and also an outsized fraction of them are black

Shouldn't this (I admit I only watched the first one) be in the 'First World Problems' thread?

That's exactly what a Karen is... a bitch having a first world problem freakout.

 

[J842P]

I'd like to hear their perspectives, not arguments. Skin tone and genitalia have a lot to do with a person's experiences in life and how they are affected by society's various attitudes. I don't give a shit about white men's perspective on this because they don't really have one, although they seem to believe that their perspective on anything is objective truth and see no need to venture beyond the ends of their own noses, and society doesn't prompt them to.

And of course, #notallmen.

The OP main question was whether it is a racial slur. That is a factual question about reality as much as whether gravity exists. The subjective experience of the target is irrelevant to any rational answer. In fact, the targets never have needed heard the phrase and thus never had any subjective experience about it in order for the question to mean the same thing it currently means.

Your objection is equivalent to saying "I don't care what a bunch of white male doctors say about the question of whether black women who are shot in the heart are likely to die."

Not equivalent at all. Doctors, by virtue of their knowledge and training, can answer any medical question better than people who are not doctors. Being white and male doesn't give anyone special perspective. In fact, white male perspective is typically oblivious to the perspectives of people who are not like them.

And no, it is not a racial slur. For fuck's sake. You can stop Karening at any time by getting a clue, or a heart, or an education, or all of the above, but you can't take off your skin. Karen's white skin is only relevant to the fact that she's a fucking racist who uses her white privilege to harass black people for no other reason than they are black and she has been indoctrinated to believe they are all criminals and she's allowed to abuse them because of their skin color.

Karens do not suffer for their skin color. They do get ridiculed and shamed for their ridiculous and shameful behavior, though.

So, I bet you were at the forefront defending Derec's use of dindu, am I right? Because after all, it is about behavior, not race.

 

[Angry Floof]

So, I bet you were at the forefront defending Derec's use of dindu, am I right? Because after all, it is about behavior, not race.

I'm sure you can rub a few brain cells together and figure out the difference. Think of it as a game, a thought experiment.

Hint: Both represent abuse of privilege.