Polls of the Presidential Race

[Cheerful Charlie]

A healthy person wearing a mask helps that person's chances of NOT inhaling viruses from some maskless jerk spewing virus around why he or she yells at the store manager for ejecting him or her from the store for refusing to wear a mask.

One would think this is a rather obvious fact.

 

[Elixir]

A healthy person wearing a mask helps that person's chances of NOT inhaling viruses from some maskless jerk spewing virus around why he or she yells at the store manager for ejecting him or her from the store for refusing to wear a mask.

One would think this is a rather obvious fact.

Large droplets (like from a spittle-flecked screaming anti-mask moron) yes.
But unless you're lucky enough to have an N95 mask on your face, you won't be protected from personalized particles.
I still have a couple of them left over from my Co. but don't use them in the regular course of things like shopping.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

They did a study on this recently and did find advantages of mask wearing to the mask wearer. I don't think it had to be N95. The advantage wasn't that it reduced probability of infection, but instead severity of infection. Here is a link.

Speaking of which, that is what I wear...N95...I had some from buying for home improvement projects just before the pandemic started.

 

[Elixir]

They did a study on this recently and did find advantages of mask wearing to the mask wearer. I don't think it had to be N95. The advantage wasn't that it reduced probability of infection, but instead severity of infection. Here is a link.

Speaking of which, that is what I wear...N95...I had some from buying for home improvement projects just before the pandemic started.

Right - several studies correlate severity of the disease to the initial dose of the virus, and aerosols are by definition smaller doses than droplets.
I have been modifying those readily available procedure masks for tighter fit... not sure how much more protection that does or does not afford for me or those I might infect, but it keeps glasses from fogging up!
Takes less time than watching this video, but it's the same idea:

 

[Treedbear]

They did a study on this recently and did find advantages of mask wearing to the mask wearer. I don't think it had to be N95. The advantage wasn't that it reduced probability of infection, but instead severity of infection. Here is a link.

Speaking of which, that is what I wear...N95...I had some from buying for home improvement projects just before the pandemic started.

Right - several studies correlate severity of the disease to the initial dose of the virus, and aerosols are by definition smaller doses than droplets.
I have been modifying those readily available procedure masks for tighter fit... not sure how much more protection that does or does not afford for me or those I might infect, but it keeps glasses from fogging up!
Takes less time than watching this video, but it's the same idea:

I think the glasses fogging problem is solved by getting masks with a metal nose insert that can be custom contoured. At least I'm hoping so since I just ordered some. Nevertheless I'm not counting on a mask to protect me since I'll still need to breath in the same volume of air and either it contains the virus or it doesn't. I wear the mask to protect others. I wear nitrile gloves to protect myself and carry around a spray bottle of 70% alcohol.

 

[Rhea]

At this point you say "well maybe they're sick and don't know it." A fair point, but overall it is a paranoid point. Do those who take that line wear flea collars? Maybe they have fleas and don't know it, and fleas carry diseases far worse than Covid.

This would be a false comparison, then?
Given how much we know, for sure, about asymptomatic people spreading this disease, it would be folly to think people knew when they were spreading. Sheer folly.

Don't conflate "died with Covid" with "died of Covid". The 183k deaths are the former. I dislike the way the stats are presented because they make those mistakes. To put it in perspective, which Karen hates, 2.8 million people die every year total. If you want to keep all these restrictions in place until nobody dies of anything that's not sensible.

Karen who?

I don’t need to conflate anything. I can look at “excess deaths” and know how many more people have died since march than usual. And I can easily look at graphs of what happened before shutdowns, after shutdowns and after re-opening.


Folly. This insistance on going back the the incredibly high death rates.

Not acceptable.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

At this point you say "well maybe they're sick and don't know it." A fair point, but overall it is a paranoid point. Do those who take that line wear flea collars? Maybe they have fleas and don't know it, and fleas carry diseases far worse than Covid.

This would be a false comparison, then?
Given how much we know, for sure, about asymptomatic people spreading this disease, it would be folly to think people knew when they were spreading. Sheer folly.

You should take this comparison seriously since it is actually a scientific fact that Bubonic Plague is actually worse than Covid. Are you an asymptomatic carrier of fleas?

Don't conflate "died with Covid" with "died of Covid". The 183k deaths are the former. I dislike the way the stats are presented because they make those mistakes. To put it in perspective, which Karen hates, 2.8 million people die every year total. If you want to keep all these restrictions in place until nobody dies of anything that's not sensible.

Karen who?

I don’t need to conflate anything. I can look at “excess deaths” and know how many more people have died since march than usual. And I can easily look at graphs of what happened before shutdowns, after shutdowns and after re-opening.

Can you look at those deaths that are the result of the shutdowns?

Folly. This insistance on going back the the incredibly high death rates.

It is folly to say I am looking to go back to incredibly high death rates.

 

[Rhea]

You should take this comparison seriously since it is actually a scientific fact that Bubonic Plague is actually worse than Covid. Are you an asymptomatic carrier of fleas?

By this, do you mean that it has a higher impact on the citizens than COVID has? Since huans don’t go around wearing flea collars, are you saying that more than 180,000 people have dies of bubonic plague this year?

And if not, why are you saying it’s “worse”?

Worse is a combination of transmissibility and lethality. And without 180,000 dead, we’re not seeing that, are we?

.

I get that you think 180,000 dead is no big deal if it forces you to (oh my!) wear a mask. I get that you are not willing to see the math that shows what COVD is doing. I hear you. You have been very clear. Got it. Nothing will change your mind. Check.

 

[Rhea]

Can you look at those deaths that are the result of the shutdowns?

Yes, this is easy. One can look at excess deaths in any locality.
You can compare:
- places with high COVID and no shut down
- places with high COVID and shut down
- places with low COVID and no shut down
- places with low COVID and shut down

And you can compare the excess deaths - those deaths above the normal rate - for each one.
And you can see whether shutdowns are a net good or a net harm.

It is folly to say I am looking to go back to incredibly high death rates.

You said you wanted to end shut downs and end masks. The data are clear what happens then.

 

[bilby]

There's no such thing as being an "asymptomatic carrier of fleas".

Is 'argument by mind bogglingly inane non-analogy' already a recognised and named logical fallacy? If not, perhaps we could call it the 'libertarian fallacy' as utterly daft and massively oversimplified analogies seem to be the foundation of their "philosophy".

 

[Treedbear]

There's no such thing as being an "asymptomatic carrier of fleas".

Is 'argument by mind bogglingly inane non-analogy' already a recognised and named logical fallacy? If not, perhaps we could call it the 'libertarian fallacy' as utterly daft and massively oversimplified analogies seem to be the foundation of their "philosophy".

It's just a case of how someone has utterly forsaken their responsibility to think rationally in the age of Trump.

 

[Elixir]

I think the glasses fogging problem is solved by getting masks with a metal nose insert that can be custom contoured. At least I'm hoping so since I just ordered some. Nevertheless I'm not counting on a mask to protect me since I'll still need to breath in the same volume of air and either it contains the virus or it doesn't. I wear the mask to protect others. I wear nitrile gloves to protect myself and carry around a spray bottle of 70% alcohol.

The procedure masks do have the metal strip embedded in the nose bridge. Maybe not quite as stout as the one in an N95. In any event, without the modification it still lets too much air out the top upon exhalation and fogs glasses... but the biggest leaks are out the sides (which become "corners" when the mask is modified). YMMV, as facial geometry varies quite a bit from person to person.

 

[Elixir]

Can you look at those deaths that are the result of the shutdowns?

Yes, this is easy. One can look at excess deaths in any locality.
You can compare:
- places with high COVID and no shut down
- places with high COVID and shut down
- places with low COVID and no shut down
- places with low COVID and shut down

And you can compare the excess deaths - those deaths above the normal rate - for each one.
And you can see whether shutdowns are a net good or a net harm.

It is folly to say I am looking to go back to incredibly high death rates.

You said you wanted to end shut downs and end masks. The data are clear what happens then.

...b-b-b-but if you don't count the cases they don't go up!

 

[TV and credit cards]

I think the glasses fogging problem is solved by getting masks with a metal nose insert that can be custom contoured. At least I'm hoping so since I just ordered some. Nevertheless I'm not counting on a mask to protect me since I'll still need to breath in the same volume of air and either it contains the virus or it doesn't. I wear the mask to protect others. I wear nitrile gloves to protect myself and carry around a spray bottle of 70% alcohol.

I had this same issue with the plain fabric masks. I bought a couple from Under Armour and it solved the problem for me.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

There's no such thing as being an "asymptomatic carrier of fleas".

Keep telling yourself that. Then you can stop feeling guilty about how you might be spreading Typhus and Bubonic Plague. The biggest symptom of fleas is that you itch, are you telling me you never itch? Better safe than sorry. Remember, it's not about you. If it saves just one life.

 

[bilby]

There's no such thing as being an "asymptomatic carrier of fleas".

Keep telling yourself that. Then you can stop feeling guilty about how you might be spreading Typhus and Bubonic Plague. The biggest symptom of fleas is that you itch, are you telling me you never itch? Better safe than sorry. Remember, it's not about you. If it saves just one life.

I am not 'telling myself that'; it's a fact. A statement that is demonstrably true, and not subject to opinion.

Fleas are macroscopic, they are easily visible to the naked eye. Carriers of fleas ALWAYS exhibit fleas on their bodies as a symptom, which is both universally and specifically diagnostic of the condition.

I know that facts are no longer popular, but they remain, regardless. Your opinion (like anyone else's, including mine) is valueless for matters of fact. Of course, you know this - but want to portray those who disagree with your simplistic worldview as having abandoned facts. Sadly for you, we can all see that this is projection - it's you who abandoned fact in this thread for a crappy analogy, so you don't get to now make smugly sarcastic remarks aimed at tarring your correspondent with that brush, without looking like not only a simpleton, but also a hypocrite.

Thanks for playing though.

 

[KeepTalking]

Sorry, but now you get to own it:

You know, I posted the numbers.

Yes, and people responded to them, but you chose to respond to me telling you that you get to own your ignorant statement:

this mask and shutdown nonsense

I was called a science denier, but nobody responded to the numbers.

In fact, you are misrepresenting the truth with the above statement, there is another word for a person who does that, and it has little to do with your science denialism.

I was called a Trump supporter, but nobody responded to the numbers.

In fact, you are misrepresenting the truth again with the above statement, there is another word for a person who does that, and it has little to do with your support of Trump.

The numbers aren't even completely accurate, as the cases number mixes those who have taken ill and those who merely tested positive.

Why shouldn't you count all positive cases when you are tallying the number of positive cases?

The death number mixes those who died of Covid and those who died with Covid, and there is a difference.

Then go ahead and give us the number you think should be presented, and how you arrived at that number. In the mean time, I will trust the experts.

Still, nobody had anything to say to the numbers.

Once again, you are misrepresenting the truth with that statement, for the third time in a single post. It is possible that you are a science denier, and a Trump supporter, given the things you post, but there is another word for a person who does what you have done in this post repeatedly and deliberately. Maybe you can help me out with that word, I am having trouble articulating it. While I am waiting I will just leave this here:

this mask and shutdown nonsense

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

There's no such thing as being an "asymptomatic carrier of fleas".

Keep telling yourself that. Then you can stop feeling guilty about how you might be spreading Typhus and Bubonic Plague. The biggest symptom of fleas is that you itch, are you telling me you never itch? Better safe than sorry. Remember, it's not about you. If it saves just one life.

I am not 'telling myself that'; it's a fact. A statement that is demonstrably true, and not subject to opinion.

But it isn't about you, it is about everyone else. Do you want grandma to die of bubonic plague? Are you saying you never itch so you know you're healthy?

 

[bilby]

I am not 'telling myself that'; it's a fact. A statement that is demonstrably true, and not subject to opinion.

But it isn't about you, it is about everyone else. Do you want grandma to die of bubonic plague? Are you saying you never itch so you know you're healthy?

No, I am saying that there's no such thing as an asymptomatic carrier of fleas, so I know you're a simpleton and a hypocrite. The reasoning behind this is set out above.

For more information, please re-read this post.

 

[angelo]

ad hominem fallacy.