Male patients asked if they are pregnant at NHS Trust

[Rhea]

No male person has the possibility of being or becoming pregnant. Ever. That you think it is important to ask males of the possibility shows you are achingly ignorant of human biology and shouldn't be anywhere near a medical setting in any professional capacity.

For those reading and watching the discussion, it’s important to remember that people who appear male, may be capable of getting pregnant, and, for their own safety, should be asked. And that, of course, it is much much more difficult for a hospital to definitively determine pregancy capability than it is to just ask.

Only a few emotionally uncontrolled people will have an actual problem with being asked, “for your own safety we ask if it is possible that you are pregnant” and are unable to just say, “no,” and carry on with their day.


This does serve as a very decent personality test, though.

 

[Metaphor]

For those reading and watching the discussion, it’s important to remember that people who appear male, may be capable of getting pregnant, and, for their own safety, should be asked.

For those reading and watching the discussion, it's important to remember that I never suggested any different and the previous policy never suggested any different. All females should be asked if they are pregnant, no matter what their appearance.

 

[Tigers!]

Males and men aren't the same thing.

I totally understand that for most of human history they were. And now, they nearly always are.

But males and men aren't the same thing, in the here and now.
Tom

You have hit the nail on the head.
This whole argument has erupted because some people do not want males = men, women = females.
The question is why do they wish to change something that has been around since the dawn of humanity?

Same reason we're getting rid of smallpox, absolute monarchy, and illiteracy. Some things have been around since the dawn of humanity that we could well do without.

Nice attempt at dodging, equating a sociological change with disease, politics etc.
Why would we well do changing males= men and females = women?

Personally, I find trans kinda icky. I cannot imagine wanting to be anything other than the sex I was born.

But I prefer living in a world where my preference isn't enforced, nor anyone else's. That's what has changed, and I find it a big moral improvement.
Tom

I would like to self-identify as a Torres Strait Islander too but that will not happen. No amount of work will make me from Scottish/English/German heritage into Torres Strait islander.
No matter how much surgery, drugs, blockers, whatever you do you will not make a woman into a man or a man into a woman.
The previous reference to a coroner is correct. A DNA sample and your chromosomes will betray you.

Again I ask the question - Why have we (society) in the last few decades decided that male =/ men and female =/ women? Who made that decision and why?

 

[Arctish]

A lot of folks in their 70s might feel that way momentarily but do you really think being told "we treat everyone the same regardless of appearance" is something to get upset about?

Everyone has to present a valid ID to buy beer in Fenway Park. Everyone gets asked the same questions when being admitted for medical care at NHS England. What's the big whoop?

The 'big whoop' was that there was no good reason to change the existing procedure.

The article you cited in the OP lists a very good reason for the question and a pretty good reason for asking all individuals the same questions.

Just because you don't like the idea of men and women being asked the same questions, including questions about prostates and pregnancy, doesn't make it a bad idea to have a standard set of questions for all patients. It's like a pre-flight checklist; it reduces the chance of something important being overlooked.

The change was made solely to appease gender cultists, and asking everybody the same questions is wasteful and can in some cases be confusing and embarassing or even insulting, and increases patient burden.

This sounds like an argument from emotion that presumes some people will have their feelings hurt if they have to answer the same questions as everyone else. "Increases patient burden?" It's a helluva lot more burdensome on the patients if the admitting staff fail to note important complicating factors before radiation therapy begins.

Nobody who is male needs to be asked if they are pregnant. The previous policy understood and acknowledged this.

Nurses and doctors do not guess the sex of their patients. The sex of an inpatient is on file, or transferred from a medical practitioner, or, if it is still somehow missing, asked of the patient upon admission. The sex of a patient and other vital details are recorded on the patient's wrist strap.

I await only the escalating madness that will result in gender cultists demanding that gender is recorded on wrist straps rather than sex.

EDIT: I didn't answer your first question. I fucking hate pretence and I hate administrative burden. If I reach 70, I want the right to be a cantankerous old man who sends soup back at the diner. I do not want a 20 fucking 2 year old to ask me for my ID to prove I am over 18.

Also, no, not everyone gets asked the same questions. Standard questions are -- or were -- tailored to a patient's circumstances. I would expect this from any passably competent organisation.

Passably competent organisations have standard procedures, forms, and checklists.

You can be as cantankerous as you like. No one has to cater to your whims. No one has to treat you as though you're special, especially when you're not.

 

[Arctish]

It really is a cult. What next “go ahead, just make the sign of a cross, what’s the big whoop?”

I didn't answer your first question. I fucking hate pretence and I hate administrative burden. If I reach 70, I want the right to be a cantankerous old man who sends soup back at the diner. I do not want a 20 fucking 2 year old to ask me for my ID to prove I am over 18.

If a bar staff ask me to show ID to buy beer, I don’t tip them. It’s fucking ridiculous, they know it’s ridiculous but more fool them for going along with it.

I have to show ID when I buy wine at the grocery store, and it's a pretty good bet I'm older than you.

It's nothing personal, so why should I take it personally?

 

[Tigers!]

I was never a six year old girl, that's true, and if you personally did not mind that a tech asked if the six year old was pregnant, more power to you.

I would find it weird and offputting myself. I will ask the parents of some young girls this weekend to see what they say, so I can gain a wider perspective.

Nah, not more power to me, it’s just not the big deal you seem to think.

You know what is a big deal to a 6yo in a doctor’s office? Drawing blood for a lead test.
They don’t give a care about the questions. The pregnancy one would just make them say, “no, I haven’t <whatever parents told them about parenthood>” or “I’m not old enough.”

And most parents are mature enough to not flip out if the nurse asks an irrelevant question.

I think it was a dermatologist office? Can't quite remember, i was just so pleased i didn't have to remember how to spell Cesarean.Caesarean...

FIFY

Word lied to me? Inconseevable!

No Tigers s lying to you.
Cesarean is correct for births in the US.
He’s trying to dope you with Australian English spellings.

FIFY

 

[Metaphor]

The article you cited in the OP lists a very good reason for the question and a pretty good reason for asking all individuals the same questions.

What? Was the reason?

Just because you don't like the idea of men and women being asked the same questions, including questions about prostates and pregnancy, doesn't make it a bad idea to have a standard set of questions for all patients. It's like a pre-flight checklist; it reduces the chance something important might be overlooked.

What? I don't have anything against men and women being asked the same questions if they are relevant to both sexes.

This sounds like an argument from emotion

What's an argument from emotion?

that presumes some people will have their feelings hurt if they have to answer the same questions as everyone else.

No. It correctly assumes that asking questions of people where the correct answer must be 'no', no matter what in fact they say, is a waste of time and could be confusing and insulting.

"Increases patient burden?" It's a helluva lot more burdensome on the patients if the admitting staff fail to note important complicating factors before radiation therapy begins.

No male has ever had his pregnancy complicated in an MRI.

 

[Metaphor]

It really is a cult. What next “go ahead, just make the sign of a cross, what’s the big whoop?”

I didn't answer your first question. I fucking hate pretence and I hate administrative burden. If I reach 70, I want the right to be a cantankerous old man who sends soup back at the diner. I do not want a 20 fucking 2 year old to ask me for my ID to prove I am over 18.

If a bar staff ask me to show ID to buy beer, I don’t tip them. It’s fucking ridiculous, they know it’s ridiculous but more fool them for going along with it.

I have to show ID when I buy wine at the grocery store, and it's a pretty good bet I'm older than you.

It's nothing personal, so why should I take it personally?

I didn't say you should take it "personally". I said I don't want to have to do it, and I would find it annoying to be asked to prove my age to a 20 fucking 2 year old, and the further I get from 20 fucking 2 he more annoying it becomes. And more to the point, I wasn't carded even when I was 18. It takes no leap of faith to assume I am over 18.

 

[laughing dog]

What dodge?

Do you imagine every nurse can immediately discern which patients might possibly be pregnant, with 100% accuracy? Particularly while the patient is clothed and awaiting exam/treatment—which, typically is when questions are asked. Do you believe that every patient knows what information is abs is not pertinent? Or that they answer accurately?

You know nothing.

When i have been hospitalized, every time nurses administer drug treatments, they scan and verify my wrist band, bed number, verify the drug, the prescription, the dosage, and verbally ask me to confirm my name and birthday. Every time.

Other patients get testy to have to repeat (what corresponds to) Keith A. Company, 9-26-62.

I was asked several times my name, year of birth, and address when I received my vaccine shots. I was asked at the entrance, at the sorting line, and just before I got the jab.

I am not against standard procedure. I am against changing standard procedure for no good reason.

I don’t mean this as any sort of insult to you but you honestly are not in a position to know whether or not a question is pertinent in a medical setting.

Exactly.

 

[laughing dog]

You didn't ask any nurses that are actually being forced to ask this question.

No. I don't need to ask. Sometimes people say things that are not direct responses to questions.

But, I am also a human being. I would be embarrassed to ask a 50 year old man if he was or could be pregnant, and I do not imagine myself emotionally separate from the entire rest of humanity. I have explained the reasons why I feel this way.

What embarrasses you is not relevant to your claim about the nurses who work at that UK health trust.

Then you clearly did not show any empathy.

Imagining how someone else might feel in a situation is empathy. I often do it.

There is no evidence of that your posts.

You might like to imagine what it is like to have somebody hound you relentlessly in every thread you start, and be hounded even in cases when the hounder is vaguely sympathetic with the views of the person being hounded.

You are seriously claiming you are being hounded relentlessly in every thread you start? Taking your ridiculous characterization as accurate, no one forces anyone to read posts. In fact, there is an actual ignore function that allows one to not see post.

 

[Toni]

Yes, you are. You are protesting this additional question which has now become standard.

Isn't the observation the politicization of medicine? No rational person thinks that a male can get pregnant. The only reason to ask a man that question is politics.

Is it? Or is it a reflection of the reality that trans men may not identify themselves as trans at medical appointments abs may indeed be pregnant or plan to get pregnant?

 

[Toni]

I guarantee you, you are causing discomfort and embarrassment to the nurses forced to ask 70 year old male patients if they are or could be pregnant.

Your guarantee is worthless because you are not in any position to know what the nurses will feel.

I've already seen nurses talk about it

So, you generalize about an entire profession?

No. I said I guarantee nurses are feeling discomfort and embarrassment. They are. "Nurses" does not mean every nurse who has ever existed, just as when I say "men are taller than women" I do not mean "every man who has ever lived is taller than every woman who has ever lived".

If you were not talking about all nurses or the actual nurses who worked at that UK health trust, then your "guarantee" was truly worthless.

I was talking about at least one nurse who worked at the trust and wrote about it.

But also some human beings have developed something called 'empathy', and they can imagine themselves in another's position, and they can imagine what it would feel like.

I know a lot of nurses. Indeed, I have tremendous empathy for the many indignities, frustrations, hard work, lack of respect, grueling hours and too often disrespect they must endure on a daily basis—often from
physicians, hospital administrators, and occasionally from patients and their families. Like most people, they do not enjoy extra paperwork and endless forms. Yet they also can point to cases where something very unusual and quite unexpected with regards to a patient’s apparent condition happened. Forms, stand procedures and checklists help medical professionals ensure that they are not overlooking important detains which might not be obvious or readily apparent.

Perhaps Great Britain is different than the US but here, forms and standard questions are developed in response to actual needs and events however unusual they might be.

Good grief.

I did not suggest getting rid of standard questions and forms.

Yes, you are. You are protesting this additional question which has now become standard.

No, I am not. I am not protesting standard questions or forms. Stop misrepresenting me.

It is not an additional question. It is the same question being asked of additional people to whom it cannot ever apply. The previous policy restricted the question to be asked only of females. The previous policy made sense. This new policy does not make sense. It was not driven by any 'grave mistakes'. It was driven by the demands of trans activists who want to jettison sex and replace it with 'gender', but their demands do not change biological facts.

Additionally, if you'd read the OP and link, you'd know that the additional scope is being practised by one NHS Trust, but not all of them, so it is not 'standard'.

If it’s been added to that institutions routine documents, it is indeed standard for that institution.

 

[TSwizzle]

It really is a cult. What next “go ahead, just make the sign of a cross, what’s the big whoop?”

I didn't answer your first question. I fucking hate pretence and I hate administrative burden. If I reach 70, I want the right to be a cantankerous old man who sends soup back at the diner. I do not want a 20 fucking 2 year old to ask me for my ID to prove I am over 18.

If a bar staff ask me to show ID to buy beer, I don’t tip them. It’s fucking ridiculous, they know it’s ridiculous but more fool them for going along with it.

I have to show ID when I buy wine at the grocery store, and it's a pretty good bet I'm older than you.

It's nothing personal, so why should I take it personally?

Each to their own I suppose. But for myself, I object to such stupidity. Now, if someone were to ask me for ID when I go to the polling booth, for example, I would have no problem with that.

 

[Trausti]

Yes, you are. You are protesting this additional question which has now become standard.

Isn't the observation the politicization of medicine? No rational person thinks that a male can get pregnant. The only reason to ask a man that question is politics.

Is it? Or is it a reflection of the reality that trans men may not identify themselves as trans at medical appointments abs may indeed be pregnant or plan to get pregnant?

It’s never wise to be untruthful when seeking medical attention.

 

[TomC]

Why would we well do changing males= men and females = women?

The moral equation to solve here is extremely simple. "Love your neighbor as yourself" includes trans folks.

In the vast majority of circumstances, another person's sex is not significant at all. Their gender is mostly important due to social and language conventions. Respect for their personhood and basic civility trumps any interest I have in the sex or gender issues of my neighbor.

Again I ask the question - Why have we (society) in the last few decades decided that male =/ men and female =/ women? Who made that decision and why?

The "who" you're referring to is the majority of society who solved the moral equation in the same way I did.
Most of the time, people's sex and gender are obvious and match. Recognizing that isn't always true is an improvement to the human situation. Meaning, it's the morally correct thing to do.
Tom

 

[Toni]

 

[Toni]

Continuing:
And the one that really, really, really matters:

 

[Jarhyn]

Continuing:

Kind of my point. I'm trying to stay out of this thread, but will point out: there are many things which, regardless of whether the answer is "known" the question must still be asked.

This is the fundamental issue. People are resisting the expectation that they ask rather than assume.

These are the same people that I would expect would take the family checkbook and buy a new car without asking. Or propose when there has been no discussion of marriage. Or who go to the bar instead of going home without telling anyone and leave them worrying "Where Are They" for hours without word.

It is the failure to consider that it is important to ASK rather than assume.

And then many of them wonder why they are alone.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

While a lesbian certainly could be pregnant it would only be by rape or deliberate intent. Thus a lesbian who is sure they aren't pregnant isn't pregnant.

Trust me when I say,
Human sexuality and sexual behavior isn't nearly that well defined.

Don't make me go into details. Because I will.
Tom

You're describing someone that is bisexual, not lesbian.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

This. Yesterday I marked a form as I'm not pregnant. So what? Why should they bother with a line saying it only applies to females?

These are verbal questions asked just before you get the procedure, not form questions. Paper forms can't automatically adapt to previous answers.

If somebody is an inpatient and their sex is 'M', they don't need to be asked if they could be pregnant. Being male precludes the possibility.

Mistakes happen. More than once women have tried to run my SIL out of the women's room thinking she's male. The safe option is to ask.