1st presidential debate 2016

[Shadowy Man]

Who do you trust more with national secrets? The woman who sends and looses thousands of government emails on a private server, or the guy who won't release his tax records?

Well even though the Bush Administration lost millions of emails from a private server, Bush still released his tax returns. So, it would seem that not releasing ones tax returns is a bigger deal than losing government emails.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush_White_House_email_controversy

 

[Trausti]

Who do you trust more with national secrets? The woman who sends and looses thousands of government emails on a private server, or the guy who won't release his tax records?

Well even though the Bush Administration lost millions of emails from a private server, Bush still released his tax returns. So, it would seem that not releasing ones tax returns is a bigger deal than losing government emails.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush_White_House_email_controversy

And yet, only partisans give a shit.

 

[laughing dog]

Why care about them?

1. To see if he is actually a criminal, illegally dodging taxes by funneling income through a "charity"
2. To see if he has blackmailable obligations to foreign governments
3. To see if he has severe conflicts of interests in his investments vs. foreign policy decisions
4. To see if he is an upstanding citizen of character or one who lies about his wealth, his charitable giving and his business acumen
5. To see if he is an actual criminal in other areas of tax code violations before he gets elected
6. To see if he is scamming the electorate and freeloading off of them saying that he's so overloaded with tax burden it has to be eased even more (so that he doesn't have to go to so much effort to funnel it through loopholes and downright illegal charity laundering)
7. To see what has him so chickenshit scared

Any one of those is enough. Any one of those is why all other presidential candidates have done it. This is not a new question. It has ALWAYS had an answer since the first time it was done. Trump's the only one too frightened to do it.


And furthermore, Trump is a fearful chicken loser for not releasing his tax returns like a real candidate.

Hey JonA. Does Rhea's post persuade you to care about Trump's tax returns? Or does it still look like partisan bloviating?

You forgot to add "Or do my posts look like partisan apologetics?

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Well, polls are starting to come out showing Clinton trending upwards, so that may be the start a post-debate bump for her. If it holds up for the week, I can't see Trump making a comeback.

 

[Shadowy Man]

Well even though the Bush Administration lost millions of emails from a private server, Bush still released his tax returns. So, it would seem that not releasing ones tax returns is a bigger deal than losing government emails.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush_White_House_email_controversy

And yet, only partisans give a shit.

I actually don't really care. I don't need to see his tax returns to know he's a criminal. He's already admitted to paying no taxes, because he's "smart". He's already operating his business with a model of not paying his contractors because he knows it will cost them more to sue him than what they'd get from him. He's said that it's good business to root for the housing crisis that left tons of people in financial ruin because he personally can make money off of it. The man is an unethical pathological liar with narcissistic personality disorder who basically lives in a fantasy world of his own facts and can't put together coherent sentences, despite having "a good brain" and knowing "the best words". There's no way in hell I would trust him to either care for the well-being of Americans or do anything to help their well-being.

 

[Jayjay]

American debate format.

Moderator: I think this is enough about this topic.
Hillary: Let me just plug my website, HillaryClinton.com, go there and there you find blah blah blah.
Trump: Go to my website also!

Truly, this battle of wits will be celebrated for centuries to come as the gold standard of political discourse.

 

[blastula]

Well even though the Bush Administration lost millions of emails from a private server, Bush still released his tax returns. So, it would seem that not releasing ones tax returns is a bigger deal than losing government emails.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush_White_House_email_controversy

And yet, only partisans give a shit.

The polls disagree, with up 74% saying they care. Though it's possible only Trump partisans say they don't care.

- - - Updated - - -

Why care about them? Don't imagine any remaining undecideds give a flying fuck about his tax returns.

You imagine right. As an "undecided", I truly don't give a flying fuck about his tax returns.

I wouldn't look at the damn things anyway.

As if an undecided can be taken as the sober voice of reason.

 

[Harry Bosch]

And yet, only partisans give a shit.

The polls disagree, with up 74% saying they care. Though it's possible only Trump partisans say they don't care.

- - - Updated - - -

Why care about them? Don't imagine any remaining undecideds give a flying fuck about his tax returns.

You imagine right. As an "undecided", I truly don't give a flying fuck about his tax returns.

I wouldn't look at the damn things anyway.

As if an undecided can be taken as the sober voice of reason.

It's a big issue. His tax returns would spell out exactly how much he's given to charity, potential ties to Russia and Putin, his personal tax rate, and etc.

 

[Horatio Parker]

Trump is vulnerable on the tax returns. He should be provoked into defensive bloviating whenever possible.

 

[another1]

I don't read anything but stuff from normal people on social media and stuff. Who is Breitbart? I'm not into books or whatever Breitbart does. Sounds scary to me.

Hillary is still looking pretty feeble nonetheless.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

I don't read anything but stuff from normal people on social media and stuff. Who is Breitbart? I'm not into books or whatever Breitbart does. Sounds scary to me.

Hillary is still looking pretty feeble nonetheless.

Uh huh. You're just parroting the talking points all on your lonesome.

 

[barbos]

What do you mean by "feeble"? She looked fine health wise. And performance wise she was better than I expected.

 

[Elixir]

Hillary is still looking pretty feeble nonetheless.

And that obese orange turd that the repugs unwittingly nominated? You know, the one that looked half-dead after having to stand for 90 minutes? I suppose he looks like a "Tremendously Strong Man" to his acolytes...despite his BMI of 35+.

 

[whichphilosophy]

The polls disagree, with up 74% saying they care. Though it's possible only Trump partisans say they don't care.

- - - Updated - - -

Why care about them? Don't imagine any remaining undecideds give a flying fuck about his tax returns.

You imagine right. As an "undecided", I truly don't give a flying fuck about his tax returns.

I wouldn't look at the damn things anyway.

As if an undecided can be taken as the sober voice of reason.

It's a big issue. His tax returns would spell out exactly how much he's given to charity, potential ties to Russia and Putin, his personal tax rate, and etc.

It's not clear how tax returns would show potential (not actual) ties to Russia and Putin. His personal tax rate would have to be shown on his own income which in both case should be huge.

 

[whichphilosophy]

Trump is vulnerable on the tax returns. He should be provoked into defensive bloviating whenever possible.

Where a person owns or is a shareholder of numerous companies they cannot micro manage every aspect of the day to day business nor the financial management of these. A director of a single company could more easily single manage key operations.

There are good reasons why they ensure that their accounts have been audited internally and by the revenue services. There could be problems within the lower parts of the organisation where such problems occur.

Commonly at the career-builder level of senior and middle management errors are commonly hidden. In one small instance the project manager wasted £1m when refurbishment of the factory was a disaster and would normally be written off. Instead he simply adjusted the figures to show £1m invested in plant expansion.
This same person by the way sacked a good staff member working for him (who noticed this) and hired a new person on less than half the salary). That person who wasted lot of money bragged how he hired cheap labour. (This is a famous brewery group).

In another instance a French employer of mine handed over US$8.5m to a Chinese subcontractor for a claim for extra costs that was baseless. I had rejected this since it was covered in his terms of contract.

However my Korean Director who didn’t like me spent time in the Karaoke bars with his Chinese counterpart for that company. In the spirit of good cooperation granted this. This was adjusted to the contract price but could have easily been spotted. The company I worked for was a global company which specialised in Project Management. The money was charged to the Client. Its own shareholders would not have been aware at this level.

There are a lot of irregularities in corporations so they are cautious to ensure their books are thoroughly vetted internally and pass the revenue services. The shareholders simply want a return and don’t have the time to micromanage every detail.

This is the way things are. There is no evidence of widespread corruption on the part of Trump himself. Whether he has or not is not the issue; no evidence has been produced except media hype.

Trump's past involvement with Casinos would certainly raise concerns for this industry with a poor reputation. That would not be enough evidence in itself to suggest to suggest the same about himself.

On Hilary Clinton's part she should logically have been a bad candidate for the US for removing one dictator from Libya and creating chaos or failing to increase security for Benghazi. However she is also what the democrats have chosen.

 

[Trausti]

The polls disagree, with up 74% saying they care. Though it's possible only Trump partisans say they don't care.

Nah.

When people are asked to rank what concerns them most about Trump, his refusal to release his taxes is way, way down the list.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/09/21/this-number-explains-why-donald-trump-isnt-likely-to-release-his-tax-returns/

As if an undecided can be taken as the sober voice of reason.

Ergo, those who have already decided to vote for the Hildebeast, Drumpf, Dopey, or Looney are the voice of reason? Shudder.

 

[Shadowy Man]

This is the way things are. There is no evidence of widespread corruption on the part of Trump himself. Whether he has or not is not the issue; no evidence has been produced except media hype.

So, it's only "hype" that he has used his foundation money to settle legal bills or has made donations to attorneys general who are overseeing lawsuits against him? These aren't actual pieces of evidence, merely made-up by the media? The lawsuits against Trump university don't count as "evidence"?

 

[Trausti]

This is the way things are. There is no evidence of widespread corruption on the part of Trump himself. Whether he has or not is not the issue; no evidence has been produced except media hype.

So, it's only "hype" that he has used his foundation money to settle legal bills or has made donations to attorneys general who are overseeing lawsuits against him? These aren't actual pieces of evidence, merely made-up by the media? The lawsuits against Trump university don't count as "evidence"?

Yeah, media hype: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/15/us/politics/pam-bondi-donald-trump-foundation.html?_r=0

 

[maxparrish]

Why should he release his tax returns? The only people braying that he must are people who are not voting for him anyway. Why care about them? Don't imagine any remaining undecideds give a flying fuck about his tax returns...

Who do you trust more with national secrets? The woman who sends and looses thousands of government emails on a private server, or the guy who won't release his tax records?

Why? How about because he said he would?

Quite aside from the fact that he seems to be concerned with discovery of his actual wealth, or perhaps off-shore accounts, or the discovery of his dealings with unpopular individuals or countries, or some other less flattering information his refusal to do what he promised is an issue; just another example of his flim-flamming and that his promises are utterly cynical B.S..

The National Memo has all the transcripts of his broken promises, and shifting excuses - as well as his contradictory claims as how much in taxes he actually pays (if any).

http://www.nationalmemo.com/showusy...mp-has-said-he-would-release-his-tax-returns/

The full details for each date are found on the weblink, in sum...:

...transcripts from over a dozen interviews he has given since 2011 show not only that he’s long overdue on his promises, but also that he has strategically changed his approach to this question, leaving contradictions along the way.

During the 2012 presidential election, Trump encouraged Mitt Romney to release his tax returns. Romney’s failure to do so until days before the general election has been interpreted as a fatal mistake. ...

The transcripts below have been condensed for brevity, and key lines have been bolded.

April 19, 2011: In an interview with ABC News, Trump pledges to release his tax returns once President Obama releases his long-form birth certificate....

April 27, 2011: While contemplating a run in the 2012 Republican primary, Trump tells ABC News’ Michael Falcone that he will release his tax returns, but “at the appropriate time.”...

January 18, 2012: On Fox News, Trump says Mitt Romney should release his tax returns (by April 1st)....

January 30, 2012: Again commenting on Romney’s campaign, Trump tells Fox News that releasing your tax returns is not repellent to him, but “a great thing.” to "show that you’ve been successful, and that you’ve made a lot of money, that you’ve employed a lot of people."

October 24, 2012: Trump tells CNN that Romney should release his tax returns if Obama releases evidence proving his birth in the U.S. (passport applications and college record).

May 2014: Trump says that if he runs for office, he will “absolutely love to” release his tax returns, in an interview with Ireland’s TV3.

February 25, 2015: Trump tells conservative radio host Hugh Hewitt that he has “no objection” to releasing his tax returns and that he "would do it".

October 4, 2015: On ABC’s This Week, Trump says he will release his tax returns once Hillary Clinton releases her emails.

"but at some point I’ll release it. But I pay as little as possible, I’m very proud to tell you. […] If our country was properly run, I’d almost feel much better about it, and so would a lot of other people."

January 24, 2016: On NBC’s Meet the Press, Trump says that his campaign is “working on” releasing his tax returns... that they will be all approved and "very beautiful". "We’re working on it right now, and at the appropriate time, you’ll be very satisfied."

February 10, 2016: Trump tells NBC News that he will release his tax returns over the next few months. When asked "whats the hold up" Trump says "well, it’s the very big tax returns. The biggest, I guarantee you this, the biggest ever in the history of what we’re doing...But we’ll be releasing that."

February 22, 2016: For the first time, Trump defends his failure to release the returns with the claim that he’s under an audit by the IRS, during an appearance on the Hugh Hewitt Show. "..."But my returns are among the largest. I’m audited all the time by government. And I think every single year... So it’s, you know, one of those things. But we are working."

February 24, 2016: Following Mitt Romney’s accusations that Trump’s taxes contain a “bombshell,” Trump defends himself on Anderson Cooper 360 and says he will “make a determination” on his returns soon." I’ll make a determination at the right time. I’m in no rush to do it. […] I have, you know, tremendously, you know, I have a very complex system of taxes. And, frankly I get audited every single year. But, we’ll make a determination over the next couple of months. It’s very complicated....I would say a couple of months. We’ll make that determination, absolutely."

February 25, 2016: During the CNN-Telemundo Republican Debate, Trump again says that he cannot release his tax returns while under an audit. "...I want to release my tax returns but I can’t release it while I’m under an audit. We’re under a routine audit. I’ve had it for years, I get audited. And obviously if I’m being audited, I’m not going to release a return."

February 25, 2016: During CNN’s review of the debate, Trump adds that he can’t release older returns not under audit because all his returns must be released “in a very unified way.” He also accuses the IRS of auditing him because he’s a Christian.

February 27, 2016: Trump defends himself at a rally in Millington, Tenn., pointing to his financial statements for proof of his wealth instead. "I filed my financials and they were phenomenal. And believe me, if they weren’t phenomenal, you would’ve heard about it from the press. You would’ve heard about it.”

February 28, 2016: Following attacks from Marco Rubio and Ted Cruz, Trump insists to CNN that he cannot release tax returns while under an audit. Adding to his previous accusations, he alleges that the IRS is singling him out because of his political views.

February 28: Trump avoids a question on CBS’s Face the Nation regarding whether or not he would release a summary of his taxes. He also promises to confirm his audit with a letter from his lawyers. Trumps says "You don’t learn — you don’t learn very much from tax — hey, John, you don’t learn very much from tax returns, let me tell you right now."

May 8, 2016: On NBC’s Meet the Press, Trump pledges to release his tax returns as soon as the audit is over.

May 11, 2016: Trump tells the AP that he will only release his tax returns once the audit is complete and that he will not push his lawyers on the issue. “There’s nothing to learn from them,” Trump said.

May 11, 2016: In a tense interview with Fox News, Trump repeats his defense, emphasizing that it makes no legal sense for him to release his tax returns while under an audit.

May 13, 2016: Trump tells ABC News that voters do not have a right to see his tax returns before the election, again saying that he will present the returns once the audit is over. When asked "What is your tax rate?" He replied "It’s none of your business. You’ll see it when I release but I fight very hard to pay as little tax as possible. […]"

May 21, 2016: Trump tells The Washington Post that he pays “substantial” taxes.

July 27, 2016: As questions arise over Trump’s financial relationship to Russia, his campaign chair says in a CBS interview that his tax returns have “nothing to do” with the matter.

July 28, 2016: In his most recent comments on the issue, Trump tells Fox News that he hasn’t received much pressure to release his tax returns.

If one admires a disingenuous bullshitter, then one has found the best in Trump.

 

[Trausti]

If one admires a disingenuous bullshitter, then one has found the best in Trump.

So if he keeps his promise and releases the tax returns you'd vote for him?