1st presidential debate 2016

[RavenSky]

I actually don't really care. I don't need to see his tax returns to know he's a criminal. He's already admitted to paying no taxes, because he's "smart". He's already operating his business with a model of not paying his contractors because he knows it will cost them more to sue him than what they'd get from him. He's said that it's good business to root for the housing crisis that left tons of people in financial ruin because he personally can make money off of it. The man is an unethical pathological liar with narcissistic personality disorder who basically lives in a fantasy world of his own facts and can't put together coherent sentences, despite having "a good brain" and knowing "the best words". There's no way in hell I would trust him to either care for the well-being of Americans or do anything to help their well-being.

word

 

[Shadowy Man]

So, it's only "hype" that he has used his foundation money to settle legal bills or has made donations to attorneys general who are overseeing lawsuits against him? These aren't actual pieces of evidence, merely made-up by the media? The lawsuits against Trump university don't count as "evidence"?

Yeah, media hype: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/15/us/politics/pam-bondi-donald-trump-foundation.html?_r=0

That article really isn't a glowing defense of the situation. Note that he illegally paid her in the first place and then had to reimburse the account and pay a penalty once it was looked into. But I didn't say that these counted as "proof", just as evidence.

 

[another1]

I'm ignorant and wrong much of the time, but my thoughts and opinions are my own. That is because I don't read, other than in glancing at stuff from cool people like you. Who are these people I'm supposedly parroting?

Aren't we all parrots in a sense? Would parrots learn to say words outside the cage more easily than inside the cage? Can a parrot teach itself to talk? What is a parrot? I don't know what people mean by parroting. I'm worried about being a parrot now. Should I be worried? How do I stop? Is there such thing as a personal opinion? If so, how to I phrase mine without being called a parrot?

What do you mean by "feeble"? She looked fine health wise.

barbos It doesn't take a physician to see that through her entire career, she has been feeble. Lately the stress of her campaign has put the feebleness into overdrive. All we can see is what is right there, and Hillary isn't right here... so I don't really know. I'm going to check her out for myself when she comes. I watched her husband speak in this city a long time ago. Hillary was there, and guess what? She had to leave - probably because of the heat. She was there with that beautiful smile for about 20 mins and then she left. Her entire career... always leaving early, coughing uncontrollably, making crazy faces as if she is having a seizure and etc etc etc etc.

I love her and I don't mean to talk bad on her btw. Like you, I want to believe she is fine. When you say "better than expected". what do you mean? What was the reason you thought she would do worse? And yes, she looks fine health wise. Good makeup jobs make people look healthy.

 

[maxparrish]

If one admires a disingenuous bullshitter, then one has found the best in Trump.

So if he keeps his promise and releases the tax returns you'd vote for him?

I'd vote for him if I thought he was no longer a disingenuous bullshitter, but his history and current behavior suggests that is as likely as perpetual motion. He has already dug a hole with this, and many other kinds of conduct. A last second effort to placate critics is too late.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

I'd vote for him if I thought he was no longer a disingenuous bullshitter, but his history and current behavior suggests that is as likely as perpetual motion. He has already dug a hole with this, and many other kinds of conduct. A last second effort to placate critics is too late.

Ya, that's the problem with disingenuous bullshitters. Every time they tell you that they're done with all the disingenuous bullshit, the statement just comes across as disingenuous bullshit.

 

[blastula]

/double post

 

[blastula]

Nah.

When people are asked to rank what concerns them most about Trump, his refusal to release his taxes is way, way down the list.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...trump-isnt-likely-to-release-his-tax-returns/

Nah to what? The poll doesn't say people don't care, it's says they care about other things first. And to be clear, the polls I referenced say that most people think he should release them, but they don't rate how much care about it. The 74% number was to the question "Do you think Donald Trump should publicly release his tax returns, or not?"

As if an undecided can be taken as the sober voice of reason.

Ergo, those who have already decided to vote for the Hildebeast, Drumpf, Dopey, or Looney are the voice of reason? Shudder.

No, but saying you're undecided at this point is the same as branding yourself as ignorant and/or stupid. What is already known about the candidates and the presidency is easily enough to decide for a sane, rational, informed person. That doesn't mean that everyone who has decided is smart, whatever their choice.

And it's also stupid to say nobody should care about tax returns. The people who don't care are ignorant and/or stupid. Tax returns matter for national security reasons at least. That is why every major party candidate has released them for decades. Like in so many other areas, Trump is violating the well established, reasonable norms of our civic process. Nihilists may think his abnormal behavior is a good thing, but fuck them.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Well even though the Bush Administration lost millions of emails from a private server, Bush still released his tax returns. So, it would seem that not releasing ones tax returns is a bigger deal than losing government emails.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush_White_House_email_controversy

And yet, only partisans give a shit.

Because people expect he is paying a good amount of taxes. The reality is, he may pay next to nothing, despite claiming to be a billionaire. People would care about that.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

I actually don't really care. I don't need to see his tax returns to know he's a criminal. He's already admitted to paying no taxes, because he's "smart". He's already operating his business with a model of not paying his contractors because he knows it will cost them more to sue him than what they'd get from him. He's said that it's good business to root for the housing crisis that left tons of people in financial ruin because he personally can make money off of it. The man is an unethical pathological liar with narcissistic personality disorder who basically lives in a fantasy world of his own facts and can't put together coherent sentences, despite having "a good brain" and knowing "the best words". There's no way in hell I would trust him to either care for the well-being of Americans or do anything to help their well-being.

word

Word word. I wouldn't trust him to take care of my houseplants!

 

[barbos]

And yet, about half of voters will vote for this piece of shit,

 

[ksen]

Why should he release his tax returns? The only people braying that he must are people who are not voting for him anyway. Why care about them? Don't imagine any remaining undecideds give a flying fuck about his tax returns.

Your imagination is extremely limited. I know a number of republicans and conservatives who are seriously considering voting for Clinton. One of the reasons is they think Trump is a blowhard chickenshit who will not stand up against our enemies. Their evidence? His refusal to release his tax returns and his medical records.

Neocons for Hillary is hardly a point in her favor.

 

[JonA]

Why care about them?

1. To see if he is actually a criminal, illegally dodging taxes by funneling income through a "charity"
2. To see if he has blackmailable obligations to foreign governments
3. To see if he has severe conflicts of interests in his investments vs. foreign policy decisions
4. To see if he is an upstanding citizen of character or one who lies about his wealth, his charitable giving and his business acumen
5. To see if he is an actual criminal in other areas of tax code violations before he gets elected
6. To see if he is scamming the electorate and freeloading off of them saying that he's so overloaded with tax burden it has to be eased even more (so that he doesn't have to go to so much effort to funnel it through loopholes and downright illegal charity laundering)
7. To see what has him so chickenshit scared

Any one of those is enough. Any one of those is why all other presidential candidates have done it. This is not a new question. It has ALWAYS had an answer since the first time it was done. Trump's the only one too frightened to do it.


And furthermore, Trump is a fearful chicken loser for not releasing his tax returns like a real candidate.

Hey JonA. Does Rhea's post persuade you to care about Trump's tax returns? Or does it still look like partisan bloviating?

I still don't give a fuck. And I don't think anyone really does. Are those bitching about this planning to look at them? Have they ever looked at any candidate's returns? Have the looked at Clinton's?

 

[whichphilosophy]

word

Word word. I wouldn't trust him to take care of my houseplants!

Nor would I Clinton but perhaps this is a job for Green Party candidate as promoting environmental responsibility.

 

[funinspace]

What I find more interesting, yet it isn't commented on much, is his claim of being audited every year so 15-or-so years. He, in his usual paranoia, alluded to some conspiracy to target him; said no one else he knows gets audited every year.

Well, I don't buy his conspiracy nuttiness, so IF he is telling the truth about being audited every year, I have to wonder why. What bullshit is he pulling in his tax returns that cause them to be flagged every year?

The other thing his claim of annual audits tells me is that he has no intention of ever releasing his returns under any circumstances. If he is permanently under audit, he will always claim he can't release them

Plus he says he'll release them 'against his LAWYER'S advice'. Wouldn't that be against his ACCOUNTANT'S advice?

FWIW, tax attorneys are generally considered higher on the heap when it comes to complex interactions with the IRS. I would expect that most all corporations of any significance have engaged the services of tax attorneys. At the same time, I'm sure he and his LLCs have tax accountants as well.

Some info on the similarities/difference:
http://tax.findlaw.com/legal-help-r...r-tax-questions-tax-lawyer-or-accountant.html

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Hey JonA. Does Rhea's post persuade you to care about Trump's tax returns? Or does it still look like partisan bloviating?

I still don't give a fuck. And I don't think anyone really does. Are those bitching about this planning to look at them? Have they ever looked at any candidate's returns? Have the looked at Clinton's?

People would only care if Trump pays a much lower effective rate in taxes than they are. Which, to his admission, he has gone at least a couple years without paying any federal income taxes, which seems absurd for someone who is allegedly a billionaire.

 

[Elixir]

I still don't give a fuck. And I don't think anyone really does. Are those bitching about this planning to look at them? Have they ever looked at any candidate's returns? Have the looked at Clinton's?

People would only care if Trump pays a much lower effective rate in taxes than they are. Which, to his omission, he has gone at least a couple years without paying any federal income taxes, which seems absurd for someone who is allegedly a billionaire.

Trump, referring to his idiotic interruption when Hillary said that for at least two years he didn't pay any taxes: "I didn't say I didn't pay any taxes, I said 'that would make me smart.'"
Fucking liar. He actually said "That makes me smart".
Could he be any more stupid? Why do the media give him a pass on lies like that? Why do brain-dead Trumpsters think nobody cares about how much he lies?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

People would only care if Trump pays a much lower effective rate in taxes than they are. Which, to his omission, he has gone at least a couple years without paying any federal income taxes, which seems absurd for someone who is allegedly a billionaire.

Trump, referring to his idiotic interruption when Hillary said that for at least two years he didn't pay any taxes: "I didn't say I didn't pay any taxes, I said 'that would make me smart.'"
Fucking liar. He actually said "That makes me smart".
Could he be any more stupid? Why do the media give him a pass on lies like that? Why do brain-dead Trumpsters think nobody cares about how much he lies?

Yeah. Trump supporters are pretty certain the media is biased against Trump and has never reported against Clinton ever. The reality is otherwise. The media loves the Trump train of fire.

 

[JonA]

I still don't give a fuck. And I don't think anyone really does. Are those bitching about this planning to look at them? Have they ever looked at any candidate's returns? Have the looked at Clinton's?

People would only care if Trump pays a much lower effective rate in taxes than they are.

None of that would have any reflection on Trump but on the broken taxation system in the US.

I imagine the Clintons get similar tax advantages.

 

[Elixir]

People would only care if Trump pays a much lower effective rate in taxes than they are.

None of that would have any reflection on Trump but on the broken taxation system in the US.

I imagine the Clintons get similar tax advantages.

Your imagination is obviously a flawed source:

In 2015, the Clintons paid an effective federal income tax rate of 34.2 percent and an effective state and local income tax rate of 9 percent for a combined federal, state, and local effective tax rate of 43.2 percent. They donated 9.8 percent of their adjusted gross income to charity.

If Trump had paid anywhere near that, he'd be touting himself from the rooftops right now, instead of lauding his intelligence for paying ZERO.
Oh, wait - he's already touting himself from the rooftops... never mind.

 

[skepticalbip]

People would only care if Trump pays a much lower effective rate in taxes than they are.

None of that would have any reflection on Trump but on the broken taxation system in the US.

I imagine the Clintons get similar tax advantages.

That's true. Income tax has nothing to do with wealth. Bringing up Trump's supposed billion dollar worth is a strawman. Income tax is a levy on the adjusted income for the tax year, not wealth that one controls. The 74,608-page-long federal tax code written by our congress critters is riddled with "incentives" and "tax breaks" to benefit their backers (and themselves). But since the "incentives and tax breaks" are law, anyone can take advantage of them - it is just that most people can't read through that ever changing tax code and understand it.

Anyone who really wants a "fair" tax system should advocate scrapping the current tax code and passing a flat tax or even for passage of HR-25 (the "fair tax act").