6/27/24 presidential debate

[laughing dog]

Toni's dad thinks Goldwater is a right-wing extremist for those positions.

You have no idea why Toni's dad thinks anything and to assume that you do is disgusting and rude.

I did read it. There is nothing there that explains why Toni's father thought Goldwater was too far right. He wanted to mainstream the use of nuclear weapons and to use them in Vietnam, for god's sake.

No one in their right mind would think actively working for civil rights in the 1950s and 60s was a right wing extremist.

 

[Politesse]

I can see wyt Netanyahu is getting his way with the USA, Biden is incapable of confronting an aggressive opponent.

Painfully plausible, despite his reputation as "fightin' Joe". Then again, I think the more likely case is that he simply could not read the room, and had no idea that more than half of Americans would become uncomfortable with Netanyahu's retributive genocide as quickly as they did. He thought 8/7 would be his 9/11, an opportunity to lead the charge from a safe distance into a glorious (and bipartisanly popular) war of satisfying revenge against a lightly armed foe, and since this time Israel was providing all the troops, all he'd have to do is sign some phony checks. Free votes! C'mon Gavin, we need to get in front of as many cameras as we can so everyone knows that despite there being no American troops, this is somehow an American war. Biden's war, even. A popular war with minimal costs, what could possibly go wrong? There had never been any opposition to US' Israel policy before, after all, except in the most obscure wings of the "radical" universities and the voting habits of a diaspora so tiny no one has ever had to give a shit about what they think before. It even worked.. for about 18 hours.

Only that diaspora lives in the states he needs to swing, and young people don't watch hour long news reports any more, they watch sequential selections of 2-3 minute news clips and blurbs of opinion, cooked up by a Chinese algorithm. Biden doesn't pivot when the temperature changes. Can't pivot, it's more of a slow wobble. And he doesn't understand the way the media has changed in the last twenty years. He doesn't understand that unlike CNN, Tiktok and Discord don't take polite requests from Obama as law. That when Israeli soldiers upload snuff films of themselves torturing civilians to non-American-owned sites, there's no way for him to demand it be taken down in time before a thousand clones have been made of them anyway.

 

[Shadowy Man]

Arguing over golf swings in a presidential debate? Unbelievably ridiculous.

a step up from the Republican debates where they argued over penis size. Luckily we had stormy to clear up any uncertainty there.

 

[Swammerdami]

Ladies and Gentlemen! We have been privileged to witness what may be the most egregious act of disingenuity I have ever seen on any message-board! And that's saying a lot.

I will encapsulate it here, with my own comments, in case there is a prize for such things and somebody wants to submit it.

Goldwater was too far right even for my father who thought that Nixon did nothing wrong and who loved Rush Limbaugh.

Barry Goldwater was regarded by many members of his own Republican Party as an extremist. He suggested the use of nuclear weapons in the Vietnam War. He opposed the nomination of Governor Earl Warren to the Supreme Court. He opposed federal enforcement of the landmark SCOTUS decision Brown vs Board of Education of Topeka.

Now one can argue that Goldwater was an admirable man of conscience who had his own liberal visions. But start a new thread to discuss Goldwater because for the purpose of this submission for The Most Egregious Disingenuity Prize, Goldwater's beliefs are IRRELEVANT. It is enough to know that many people including many Republicans thought of Goldwater as an extreme right-winger. His complacency about the use of nuclear weapons and his support for the John Birch Society were particularly unsettling.

I was politically aware in 1964 and the huge fear, whether rational or not, about Goldwater's candidacy was very apparent. I was watching the GOP Convention on TV when two Senator-delegates from New York refused to make Goldwater's nomination unanimous. His November loss to LBJ was one of the biggest landslides in American history.

I don't want to put words in Toni's mouth, nor opinions in her father's brain but a good guess might be that advocacy of nuclear war was a reason Goldwater was thought to be "too far right."

I support the 1957 civil rights act and the 1960 civil rights act. There's a reason many people who supported the 1957 act and the 1960 act opposed the 1964 act, and many people who opposed the 1957 act and the 1960 act supported the 1964 act. You did know there were other civil rights acts? I am on the side of those who favor a color-blind government, which puts me in opposition to the 1964 act. Before you respond to that, remember that I am a minority saying that.

Goldwater helped found the NAACP's Arizona chapter. He saw to it that the Arizona Air National Guard was racially integrated from its inception in 1946, ... He supported the Civil Rights Acts of 1957 and 1960 and the 24th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution but opposed the Civil Rights Act of 1964, disagreeing with Title II and Title VII. After leaving the Senate, Goldwater became supportive of homosexuals serving openly in the military, environmental protection, gay rights, abortion rights, adoption rights for same-sex couples, and the legalization of medicinal marijuana.

Toni's dad thinks Goldwater is a right-wing extremist for those positions.

I guessed that Goldwater's advocacy of using nuclear weapons may have been what bothered Toni's dad. Mr. Harvestdancer claims that it was Goldwater's advocacy of civil rights that led Toni's dad to consider Goldwater (BG) "too far right." Harvestdancer (JH) even cites Goldwater's civil rights support AFTER his failed 1964 campaign, which lacks any chronological sense.

Let me repeat that. JH pretends to believe that it was support for civil rights that made Toni's dad reject BG as "too far right." Do I need to belabor the point?

There are two possibilities:
(1) JH's cognitive skill is at such a low level that I would risk a ToU infraction by discussing it.
Or
(2) The relationship between JH's post and reality is so non-existent that I would risk a ToU infraction by specifying this more clearly.

And this, BTW, is an extremely common pattern with JH. In prior posts on other topics, Harvestdancer has used this extreme level of disingenuity over and over and over. I'm not sure I've even seen Tucker Carlson, Sean Hannity or Donald Trump sink to such blatantly ridiculous nonsense.

@Jason Harvestdancer -- Can you explain this pattern? Do you have some twisted notion of rhetoric where constructing such nonsense is seen as an intellectual triumph? Free advice for Jason: This sort of "cognition" makes you look like an utter fool.

 

[barbos]

Does not that make him great politician? I mean that's how it works, right?

It's adorable that you think you are an expert on how democracy works. The short answer is , "kind of", but you would interpret that as, " See! Putin and window makes workings so better much!"

Everybody is actually an expert on how democracy works.
But yes, I also consider myself an expert on how american "democracy" works.

 

[barbos]

The talk in this thread of wanting to replace Biden with another candidate is nonsense. Why don't people just wait to make a judgment call?

Biden showed he's as capable as his IIDB fans have said he is in his North Caroline speech today:



I don't understand how he performed so poorly (and looked like hell) last night but looks and acts healthy and fully capable today. Over-prepped to the point of exhaustion combined with a cold last night, but a totally different person today? Not on enough drugs last night? (And, about the accusation of drugs... if drugs do this for anyone then 1) I want some! and 2) I want him to stay on these drugs because effective medication is, obviously-as-fucking-hell, a very good thing!)

But to perform so well shows the fears he's gone feeble and demented are false. And anyway, if he gets elected then dies then Harris takes over, that's good too (especially if she's prone to progressive's manipulations like some suggest ).

Next week the Supreme Court will steal attention away from this debate and we'll be back to being outraged at them again instead of worrying over Biden's health.

Randomly clicked on the time bar of your video 5:38
Biden says "Trump says I quadrupled the taxes, where the hell has he been?"

Where the hell have YOU Mr. Biden been? Oh, that's right, you have been right there and said nothing.
Now, after your handlers handed you a new script and teleprompter, you are suddenly smart.
Ooooo-keeey.

 

[Toni]

Ladies and Gentlemen! We have been privileged to witness what may be the most egregious act of disingenuity I have ever seen on any message-board! And that's saying a lot.

I will encapsulate it here, with my own comments, in case there is a prize for such things and somebody wants to submit it.

Goldwater was too far right even for my father who thought that Nixon did nothing wrong and who loved Rush Limbaugh.

Barry Goldwater was regarded by many members of his own Republican Party as an extremist. He suggested the use of nuclear weapons in the Vietnam War. He opposed the nomination of Governor Earl Warren to the Supreme Court. He opposed federal enforcement of the landmark SCOTUS decision Brown vs Board of Education of Topeka.

Now one can argue that Goldwater was an admirable man of conscience who had his own liberal visions. But start a new thread to discuss Goldwater because for the purpose of this submission for The Most Egregious Disingenuity Prize, Goldwater's beliefs are IRRELEVANT. It is enough to know that many people including many Republicans thought of Goldwater as an extreme right-winger. His complacency about the use of nuclear weapons and his support for the John Birch Society were particularly unsettling.

I was politically aware in 1964 and the huge fear, whether rational or not, about Goldwater's candidacy was very apparent. I was watching the GOP Convention on TV when two Senator-delegates from New York refused to make Goldwater's nomination unanimous. His November loss to LBJ was one of the biggest landslides in American history.

I don't want to put words in Toni's mouth, nor opinions in her father's brain but a good guess might be that advocacy of nuclear war was a reason Goldwater was thought to be "too far right."

I support the 1957 civil rights act and the 1960 civil rights act. There's a reason many people who supported the 1957 act and the 1960 act opposed the 1964 act, and many people who opposed the 1957 act and the 1960 act supported the 1964 act. You did know there were other civil rights acts? I am on the side of those who favor a color-blind government, which puts me in opposition to the 1964 act. Before you respond to that, remember that I am a minority saying that.

Goldwater helped found the NAACP's Arizona chapter. He saw to it that the Arizona Air National Guard was racially integrated from its inception in 1946, ... He supported the Civil Rights Acts of 1957 and 1960 and the 24th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution but opposed the Civil Rights Act of 1964, disagreeing with Title II and Title VII. After leaving the Senate, Goldwater became supportive of homosexuals serving openly in the military, environmental protection, gay rights, abortion rights, adoption rights for same-sex couples, and the legalization of medicinal marijuana.

Toni's dad thinks Goldwater is a right-wing extremist for those positions.

I guessed that Goldwater's advocacy of using nuclear weapons may have been what bothered Toni's dad. Mr. Harvestdancer claims that it was Goldwater's advocacy of civil rights that led Toni's dad to consider Goldwater (BG) "too far right." Harvestdancer (JH) even cites Goldwater's civil rights support AFTER his failed 1964 campaign, which lacks any chronological sense.

Let me repeat that. JH pretends to believe that it was support for civil rights that made Toni's dad reject BG as "too far right." Do I need to belabor the point?

There are two possibilities:
(1) JH's cognitive skill is at such a low level that I would risk a ToU infraction by discussing it.
Or
(2) The relationship between JH's post and reality is so non-existent that I would risk a ToU infraction by specifying this more clearly.

And this, BTW, is an extremely common pattern with JH. In prior posts on other topics, Harvestdancer has used this extreme level of disingenuity over and over and over. I'm not sure I've even seen Tucker Carlson, Sean Hannity or Donald Trump sink to such blatantly ridiculous nonsense.

@Jason Harvestdancer -- Can you explain this pattern? Do you have some twisted notion of rhetoric where constructing such nonsense is seen as an intellectual triumph? Free advice for Jason: This sort of "cognition" makes you look like an utter fool.

Pretty certain that it was NOT Goldwater’s ‘too liberal’ stance on anything that my father felt too extreme.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

Polls show debate did not hurt Biden.

.......
A new poll showing the disastrous Atlanta debate appears to have helped — or at least, not harmed — President Joe Biden's chances, and the internet laughed as everyone rallied around the notion it seems no one knows anything anymore.
....
"Yep, they saw Trump lie incessantly and never answer a question," said Dana_Molly_Reid.

"Turns out, Trump's lies and racism were more of a deal breaker than Biden being sick," wrote @Thecolours.
.....

'No one knows anything': Internet befuddled by post-debate poll showing Biden bump

A new poll showing the disastrous Atlanta debate appears to have helped — or at least, not harmed — President Joe Biden's chances, and the internet laughed as everyone rallied around the notion it seems no one knows anything anymore. Amidst a sea of articles and opinion pieces questioning...

www.rawstory.com

 

[barbos]

Polls show debate did not hurt Biden.

It merely illustrates that public and democratic operatives had different expectations about this debate.
Public were expecting Biden to not crap in his pants on stage, whereas operatives were expecting to get Biden from 4 years ago. And no, I don't have much trust in published polls.

 

[Politesse]

He was nice about it, but even Obama tacitly admitted that the debate was a bit of a disaster:

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

Polls show debate did not hurt Biden.

It merely illustrates that public and democratic operatives had different expectations about this debate.
Public were expecting Biden to not crap in his pants on stage, whereas operatives were expecting to get Biden from 4 years ago. And no, I don't have much trust in published polls.

And fact checkers have been having a field day with Trumps bragging lies.

 

[barbos]

Polls show debate did not hurt Biden.

It merely illustrates that public and democratic operatives had different expectations about this debate.
Public were expecting Biden to not crap in his pants on stage, whereas operatives were expecting to get Biden from 4 years ago. And no, I don't have much trust in published polls.

And fact checkers have been having a field day with Trumps bragging lies.

does not make Biden suddenly lose 4 years.

 

[Swammerdami]

Pretty certain that it was NOT Goldwater’s ‘too liberal’ stance on anything that my father felt too extreme.

​

A kinder interpretation of @Jason Harvestdancer 's peculiar idea, is to accuse him of a certain logic fallacy. All "good" logic fallacies have a Latin name and this one is called

Fallacia logica nimis stultus est nomen habere​

Let me give another example of Fallacia logica nimis stultus est nomen habere:

A meme is making the round on Xwitter. RFK, Jr. or Kanye West or Rand Paul or some lesser-known celebrity has claimed that "1 Plus 1 is Two. But 1 Times 1 is also Two." Most mathematical philosophers, while accepting 1+1=2, disagree about 1x1=2.

Swammi says 1+1≠2

Confronted with such breathtaking audacity, we mortals can do little but stand back in awe, with our hats in our hands.

 

[TV and credit cards]

I can see wyt Netanyahu is getting his way with the USA, Biden is incapable of confronting an aggressive opponent.

Painfully plausible, despite his reputation as "fightin' Joe". Then again, I think the more likely case is that he simply could not read the room, and had no idea that more than half of Americans would become uncomfortable with Netanyahu's retributive genocide as quickly as they did. He thought 8/7 would be his 9/11, an opportunity to lead the charge from a safe distance into a glorious (and bipartisanly popular) war of satisfying revenge against a lightly armed foe, and since this time Israel was providing all the troops, all he'd have to do is sign some phony checks. Free votes! C'mon Gavin, we need to get in front of as many cameras as we can so everyone knows that despite there being no American troops, this is somehow an American war. Biden's war, even. A popular war with minimal costs, what could possibly go wrong? There had never been any opposition to US' Israel policy before, after all, except in the most obscure wings of the "radical" universities and the voting habits of a diaspora so tiny no one has ever had to give a shit about what they think before. It even worked.. for about 18 hours.

Only that diaspora lives in the states he needs to swing, and young people don't watch hour long news reports any more, they watch sequential selections of 2-3 minute news clips and blurbs of opinion, cooked up by a Chinese algorithm. Biden doesn't pivot when the temperature changes. Can't pivot, it's more of a slow wobble. And he doesn't understand the way the media has changed in the last twenty years. He doesn't understand that unlike CNN, Tiktok and Discord don't take polite requests from Obama as law. That when Israeli soldiers upload snuff films of themselves torturing civilians to non-American-owned sites, there's no way for him to demand it be taken down in time before a thousand clones have been made of them anyway.

Bold - Really? You don't think Biden has people around feeding him this information, that regularly take the temperature of the room for him? I mean, you had it figured out. I had it figured out in the opening days of the Gaza war when I said the "US would wear this", surely Biden knows these Americans exist, that typically walk hand in hand with our European friends on the issue.
Perhaps Biden can read the room or the room is read for him and he is just doing the best he can straddling that fence.

Bold - Again, he's got people. Lots of people. Some of them are probably even relatively young, young enough to understand media formats.

Unless you think he's surrounded himself with nothing but senior citizens and every time they broach a subject it devolves into conversation about decades past.

 

[barbos]

Bold - Again, he's got people

Yes, he's got a lot of sociopaths around him.

 

[Politesse]

I can see wyt Netanyahu is getting his way with the USA, Biden is incapable of confronting an aggressive opponent.

Painfully plausible, despite his reputation as "fightin' Joe". Then again, I think the more likely case is that he simply could not read the room, and had no idea that more than half of Americans would become uncomfortable with Netanyahu's retributive genocide as quickly as they did. He thought 8/7 would be his 9/11, an opportunity to lead the charge from a safe distance into a glorious (and bipartisanly popular) war of satisfying revenge against a lightly armed foe, and since this time Israel was providing all the troops, all he'd have to do is sign some phony checks. Free votes! C'mon Gavin, we need to get in front of as many cameras as we can so everyone knows that despite there being no American troops, this is somehow an American war. Biden's war, even. A popular war with minimal costs, what could possibly go wrong? There had never been any opposition to US' Israel policy before, after all, except in the most obscure wings of the "radical" universities and the voting habits of a diaspora so tiny no one has ever had to give a shit about what they think before. It even worked.. for about 18 hours.

Only that diaspora lives in the states he needs to swing, and young people don't watch hour long news reports any more, they watch sequential selections of 2-3 minute news clips and blurbs of opinion, cooked up by a Chinese algorithm. Biden doesn't pivot when the temperature changes. Can't pivot, it's more of a slow wobble. And he doesn't understand the way the media has changed in the last twenty years. He doesn't understand that unlike CNN, Tiktok and Discord don't take polite requests from Obama as law. That when Israeli soldiers upload snuff films of themselves torturing civilians to non-American-owned sites, there's no way for him to demand it be taken down in time before a thousand clones have been made of them anyway.

Bold - Really? You don't think Biden has people around feeding him this information, that regularly take the temperature of the room for him? I mean, you had it figured out. I had it figured out in the opening days of the Gaza war when I said the "US would wear this", surely Biden knows these Americans exist, that typically walk hand in hand with our European friends on the issue.
Perhaps Biden can read the room or the room is read for him and he is just doing the best he can straddling that fence.

Bold - Again, he's got people. Lots of people. Some of them are probably even relatively young, young enough to understand media formats.

Unless you think he's surrounded himself with nothing but senior citizens and every time they broach a subject it devolves into conversation about decades past.

Yes, I know he has people. Whoever runs his X account gets off some damn good zingers every now and then. From what I've seen, much of the work in DC these days is accomplished by highly educated, underpaid, queer staffers and aides of color. They do not decide the White House's policies, though.

 

[barbos]

I did not know Hitler wanted Biden to win.

 

[Politesse]

Oh, Barbos...

That's not really Hitler. That is a talented actor named Bruno Ganz, portraying Hitler in a 2004 historical drama about the end of Hitler's life. Someone has edited it together with images from Thursday's debate, as a joke. As part of said joke, the subtitles incorrectly translate the rant on purpose, as was popular in a series of similar memes from the late 00's.

 

[Toni]

I can see wyt Netanyahu is getting his way with the USA, Biden is incapable of confronting an aggressive opponent.

Painfully plausible, despite his reputation as "fightin' Joe". Then again, I think the more likely case is that he simply could not read the room, and had no idea that more than half of Americans would become uncomfortable with Netanyahu's retributive genocide as quickly as they did. He thought 8/7 would be his 9/11, an opportunity to lead the charge from a safe distance into a glorious (and bipartisanly popular) war of satisfying revenge against a lightly armed foe, and since this time Israel was providing all the troops, all he'd have to do is sign some phony checks. Free votes! C'mon Gavin, we need to get in front of as many cameras as we can so everyone knows that despite there being no American troops, this is somehow an American war. Biden's war, even. A popular war with minimal costs, what could possibly go wrong? There had never been any opposition to US' Israel policy before, after all, except in the most obscure wings of the "radical" universities and the voting habits of a diaspora so tiny no one has ever had to give a shit about what they think before. It even worked.. for about 18 hours.

Only that diaspora lives in the states he needs to swing, and young people don't watch hour long news reports any more, they watch sequential selections of 2-3 minute news clips and blurbs of opinion, cooked up by a Chinese algorithm. Biden doesn't pivot when the temperature changes. Can't pivot, it's more of a slow wobble. And he doesn't understand the way the media has changed in the last twenty years. He doesn't understand that unlike CNN, Tiktok and Discord don't take polite requests from Obama as law. That when Israeli soldiers upload snuff films of themselves torturing civilians to non-American-owned sites, there's no way for him to demand it be taken down in time before a thousand clones have been made of them anyway.

Bold - Really? You don't think Biden has people around feeding him this information, that regularly take the temperature of the room for him? I mean, you had it figured out. I had it figured out in the opening days of the Gaza war when I said the "US would wear this", surely Biden knows these Americans exist, that typically walk hand in hand with our European friends on the issue.
Perhaps Biden can read the room or the room is read for him and he is just doing the best he can straddling that fence.

Bold - Again, he's got people. Lots of people. Some of them are probably even relatively young, young enough to understand media formats.

Unless you think he's surrounded himself with nothing but senior citizens and every time they broach a subject it devolves into conversation about decades past.

Yes, I know he has people. Whoever runs his X account gets off some damn good zingers every now and then. From what I've seen, much of the work in DC these days is accomplished by highly educated, underpaid, queer staffers and aides of color. They do not decide the White House's policies, though.

And yet, this administration is the most friendly to persons of color and queer people so far.

I do really get that it is horrible that people STILL have to fight to be treated equally in society and under the law. I realize that it's not the same thing but I still am a woman and on a daily basis am reminded that there is a considerable portion of the legislature, on national, state and local levels who wish very badly to curtail my rights--and not just rights to have an abortion or use birth control, neither of which I need at this point in my life. Trust me, I have been well told over and over and over again that white women just need to keep their damn mouths shut or else we are Karens. It is not less insulting or more just when it is someone who is under 50 who says it or if it is a person of color or a queer person. One of our political parties has a greater propensity to wish to curtail the rights of anyone who is not a white 'Christian' male than the other. That's the party I'm going to vote for.

While it is true that it is almost a certainty that someone is running Biden's media accounts and that he never or only rarely writes the content, I'm also certain that , stutter and all, he's not only intelligent but clever and funny. He has a sense of humor and even better, it is not predicated on some person or group being less than. Even with the zingers. He may stutter and he may be old but he can put together an actual sentence.

AND he hires competent people who believe in democracy and the US Constitution.

I think that it's also true that a great deal of the work accomplished in DC is accomplished by persons of color and queer people, that has always been the case and it is my opinion that queer and person of color is being highlighted instead of hidden.

 

[Politesse]

And yet, this administration is the most friendly to persons of color and queer people so far.

Indisputably true. I would not claim otherwise. The problem is Joe's campaign, not Joe's Washington, which is more functional than it has been in a very long time despite an almost complete lack of participation on the part of the other two branches. I firmly believe historians will remember him as one of our better presidents. But that won't necessarily won him this election.